How do you experience your dual-seeking/suggestive function?

[xyz]

Apperently I'm not very conscious of my dual seeking function. People left and right call me a Ne slut.

[Expat]

1) SLI guy was raised in a low-Ne househould (LSI father, SEI mother, ESI sister) and married ESE woman.

I am curious, Expat, how does the absence of Ni (& Ne) manifest in their relationship? or in any SLI-ESE relationship? How does it look like IRL?

Well, it looks like this -- in any given moment of their lives, it looks like they have it all together: a balanced budget, a very nice place to live, and they make the best of what they have. It works perfectly on a daily basis. But it also looks like they're sort of "stuck", like, they are also a bit unhappy in the routine but are not sure what. And the things that they do try in terms of "something bigger" seem unrealistic.

The SLI was the breadwinner, and he was sort of "stuck" in that he could not see how he could do something else professionally, he was all in "that's what I have experience in". The ESE woman, on the other hand, had attempts at doing something different but then went for not very realistic things, that is, things that would be extremely unlikely to succeed, and only very seldom.

[diljs]

stuff

I agree with most of what mn0good said.
Messy room? check. ("What? I remember where I threw it last time.")
Dishes/Laundry? check, although I've learned to make myself take the soiled articles from the counter/floor and load the applicable appliances at somewhat regular intervals.
Small "details" like paying bills? check. Not a fan.

I really have to be vigilant in my personal affairs to be sure nothing gets "missed". I've been fortunate enough to have a few Si ego friends who over the past few years have brought to my attention that I need what I now know is Si. I now have a baseline of competence when it comes to not starving, cleaning things from time to time, keeping track of monetary details, and actually enjoying the present a bit.

Some other ways I manifest Si Seeking:
-Sitting in uncomfortable places/positions. Recently I went into a friends' living room, there was nowhere to sit around the TV so I just hopped into a corner.
ESFj friend goes "can you see the TV from there?"
Me: (hadn't thought about it, checked) "Not really, but it's ok"
ESFj: "Why don't you sit [by me] here"
*I pull a chair from the table and place it in an awkward spot by her and sit down in an awkward position, later realizing I'll hurt my back if I don't change spots*

-I'm a few pounds underweight, had no idea until people started mentioning it. One ISFp I know keeps trying to fatten me up with tons of food whenever I visit. I Usually don't notice I'm hungry, and can forget to eat for long periods.

-Very uncomfortable most of the time at work, except when my ESXj boss stops by and uses his uncanny ability to relax me

-A couple of my friends (ISTp and IXFp) are known to drag me off on roadside trips where we drink wine and pick flowers. These are things I wouldn't begin to understand on my own, but now I've "learned" to pursue these sorts of activities even when they're not around.

-I can definitely see the *lack* of si in the Beta Fe types that I'm attracted to. The Fe is great but I don't feel that "at home" feeling with them that I get from Alpha Fe.

Am I aware of my need for Si? yes, to an extent, but only because I look for it after learning about Socionics.

[717495]

This question is aimed toward the standalone, less oriented with your dual, use of the function.

So I'd like to hear some individual examples, and a generalized objective thesis would be ideal.

[Creepy-male]

I think for IXEs it's taking frequent down times (that wind up barely working, so we take a lot of them ), and also searching for things that switch our minds off.

At the very least in my case I play MMOs a lot to immerse myself in the numbers and the theory and the mind-numbing grind, but then wind up firing up my Ne anyway.

[717495]

I'm sorry coolzon, you're going to have to make up for all the other types. They couldn't make the event this evening.

[krieger]

Fe is the reason INTjs use Ti. You never need a pragmatic plan (Ti) when you don't first want (Fe) something done.

What's interesting is that in Te/Fi types, the roles are reversed. To them there is first a very practical need to do something (Te), which defines a motivational attitude (Fi) as in "this must be done; it's a moral necessity".

[717495]

You're talking about how the Te dominant's "ego" only defines something as ethical (Fi) if they are in that line of work in the first place? So how that looks for the other extroverts is that their dominant function is more selective (however that works) and that the introverted dual-seeking function is basically adapted to what it selects. That is understandable. It is also in my understanding that the introverted function had this perception of the information being constructed by its extroverted counterpart, but there is also importance of it's dual-seeking function, so how do you define the dual-seeking function's importance is basically that Ti and Te are similar because they're both logical, and that Ti is initially constructed for Fe because of values. Sure I could buy that. That is purely the technical explanation which discludes all of the personal reasoning and motivations of why, which aren't necessarily unable to be generalized.

[ArchonAlarion]

Fe is the reason INTjs use Ti. You never need a pragmatic plan (Ti) when you don't first want (Fe) something done.

What's interesting is that in Te/Fi types, the roles are reversed. To them there is first a very practical need to do something (Te), which defines a motivational attitude (Fi) as in "this must be done; it's a moral necessity".

right.

I've been thinking about Ti/Fe like a musical instrument recently.

Its like, you've got this sound structure. The pattern of the song is waiting because its a potential. Thats the Ti. Its waiting in an abstract, subjective realm not yet applied. Then when you play, and people listen, you gauge their reactions to the music structure. Then you go back and tweak the music, so that it will get the message across even smoother.

So Ti-ers watch for Fe revelations (note, imo Fe is not "emotional content", its is internal object dynamics). Like tones and melodies that you pick up on and this reveals a certain structure that makes the music.

So instead of gauging the Ti against the Te, we measure its accuracy in terms of Fe. "Does this theory, click?" With Ti, the external (demonstrable) part is in the subject. We dont need Te objective measuring. We have the intuitive and latent Fe validation. Fe is the audience that boos and claps depending on how good our Ti composure is.

You're talking about how the Te dominant's "ego" only defines something as ethical (Fi) if they are in that line of work in the first place? So how that looks for the other extroverts is that their dominant function is more selective (however that works) and that the introverted dual-seeking function is basically adapted to what it selects. That is understandable. It is also in my understanding that the introverted function had this perception of the information being constructed by its extroverted counterpart, but there is also importance of it's dual-seeking function, so how do you define the dual-seeking function's importance is basically that Ti and Te are similar because they're both logical, and that Ti is initially constructed for Fe because of values. Sure I could buy that. That is purely the technical explanation which discludes all of the personal reasoning and motivations of why, which aren't necessarily unable to be generalized.

Do you think you could rephrase that please?

[Park]

I stir it up in a cup of soda and drink it. Later on I fart it out and inhale it.

[redbaron]

If nobody else around me is able to take action or make a decision, I will, if I deem necessary, take the bull by the horns and just do it. This sometimes happens when I'm with my parents (there is zero Se in my family of origin). (mom is IEE and dad is SEI. brother is IEI) Also my husband (ESE), while wanting to get things done, needs someone to lead. So there are occasions when I watch myself trying to act like my dual. In those times, I feel disgusted because I feel like I shouldn't have to be providing this. I want other people to do it for me. But if no one else will do it, I can't sit back and watch everyone flounder like a fish. It's too painful after awhile.

[Nexus]

Fe is the reason INTjs use Ti. You never need a pragmatic plan (Ti) when you don't first want (Fe) something done.

What's interesting is that in Te/Fi types, the roles are reversed. To them there is first a very practical need to do something (Te), which defines a motivational attitude (Fi) as in "this must be done; it's a moral necessity".

+1

I use because I know it's what my dual wants and depends on for mobilizing, and I can relate to my dual on a much deeper (superid) level than my own ego...DS for me is making time for and understanding my dual, which also makes me look more adapted to society than my ego functions alone.

[silverchris9]

But if no one else will do it, I can't sit back and watch everyone flounder like a fish. It's too painful after awhile.

Ugh. Ditto. I hate it when people are failing to do things, because you know what's going to happen if you don't make things happen. I can go into make-it-happen mode for a while, but I don't really enjoy it. I feel like I have to twist myself somewhat out of shape (and I'm not extraordinarily good at it, but it's better than it not getting done at all, right?). On the other hand, I'm also glad I know I can, if and when necessary. Is that ?

[717495]

But if no one else will do it, I can't sit back and watch everyone flounder like a fish. It's too painful after awhile.

We're only human, at least for humans.

[The Exception]

Give praise where praise is due

Try to make others laugh

Smile alot. I've been told I smile alot, but its a nervous smile.

Generally I act warm and friendly with people, including those I just met.

Express enthusiasm about things

Usually I'm pretty calm and not easily angered but there has been the occasional time when my anger has boiled over and I just could not hold it in. Don't know how type related this is.

[redbaron]

Smile alot. I've been told I smile alot, but its a nervous smile.

yeah I have two LII friends who also smile nervously. it's cute.

[Brilliand]

Einstein ( DS) would go for nature walks... with his friends... discussing intellectual matters. I think the "nature walks" part was the . Though... he probably brought his dual along.

I ( DS) listen to music, or trigger happiness in myself by mental association... though I don't dare fight depression that way (mental association), as I'm afraid it would cause all happiness to come mixed with pain.

[Logos]

I hope one day you'll realize Einstein was ILI and what you just wrote is pure speculation because of that.

Einstein is a well-accepted ILE amongst the Socionics community for a good reason. You may want to properly investigate the case.

Anyway, I realized that at times I may try to provoke an emotional reaction out of people. These provoked reactions are not necessarily meant to be negative or insulting reactions, but just representative of how the person may be feeling at that present moment. I can be insecure about the strength of an actual bond, and so I need a way to read the meters, so to speak. So gauging the emotions over a period of time is supposed to help me assert the strength of the bond. This is true even in cases in which the person verbally tells me of the bond.

[JWC3]

I guess I exercise my DS by learning/reading about weird stuff and then bringing it up in conversation and seeing who can keep up. Like getting into really philosophical discussions, talking about aliens, alien cults, how the world is going to end in 2012, black holes, space, giant squids, that kinda stuff. It doesn't really happen often though :S

[strrrng]

right.

I've been thinking about Ti/Fe like a musical instrument recently.

Its like, you've got this sound structure. The pattern of the song is waiting because its a potential. Thats the Ti. Its waiting in an abstract, subjective realm not yet applied. Then when you play, and people listen, you gauge their reactions to the music structure. Then you go back and tweak the music, so that it will get the message across even smoother.

So Ti-ers watch for Fe revelations (note, imo Fe is not "emotional content", its is internal object dynamics). Like tones and melodies that you pick up on and this reveals a certain structure that makes the music.

So instead of gauging the Ti against the Te, we measure its accuracy in terms of Fe. "Does this theory, click?" With Ti, the external (demonstrable) part is in the subject. We dont need Te objective measuring. We have the intuitive and latent Fe validation. Fe is the audience that boos and claps depending on how good our Ti composure is.

This is a decent example IMO –– you touch on the general cognitive layout of that feedback loop. I think the key aspect illustrated in what you mention, is that Ti determines the premises for causal sequences to proceed from. Or rather, it sets up parameters for them to work within, and upon observing the effects in those sequences, colligates said things into more general (a priori) "rules" within those parameters (accounting for implicit variations via explicit relations). Obviously this ties somewhat to the idea of logical structure/cohesion and intentions/emotionality: intentions are things manifest within specific actions, their pattern illustrating itself through the intangible effects, their causes relating back to core principles, which are based on subjective formatting throughout a wide breadth of situations.

[Cyrano]

I stir it up in a cup of soda and drink it. Later on I fart it out and inhale it.

"So instead of gauging the Ti against the Te, we measure its accuracy in terms of Fe. "


They do take this stuff seriously don't they? I mean I'm sure they're right, but what are they talking about?

[ArchonAlarion]

a newfag would not understand me and some oldfags would argue that Im batshit insane anyways.

okay... You know how Ti perceives in terms of explicit coherence? Like to put it simpler, logical consistency in systems?

So Ti does not rearrange itself, restructure, or change parameters based on Te. Its does so based on Fe. The objective motions of Fe (Fe = internal object dynamics) inspire changes in Ti structure. That is why they are complementary (or vice versa).

[Currere]

I ( DS) listen to music, or trigger happiness in myself by mental association... though I don't dare fight depression that way (mental association), as I'm afraid it would cause all happiness to come mixed with pain.

When you say "mental association", do you mean conjuring up funny memories to entertain yourself? If so, I do that as well a lot, when there's no humorous things going on around me, like at work.

[717495]

So Ti does not rearrange itself, restructure, or change parameters based on Te. Its does so based on Fe. The objective motions of Fe (Fe = internal object dynamics) inspire changes in Ti structure. That is why they are complementary (or vice versa).

Is there a source for this explanation?

I guess I exercise my DS by learning/reading about weird stuff and then bringing it up in conversation and seeing who can keep up. Like getting into really philosophical discussions, talking about aliens, alien cults, how the world is going to end in 2012, black holes, space, giant squids, that kinda stuff. It doesn't really happen often though :S

Lol. When I first read this I thought it said how the world began in 2012, and I got all excited.





I exercise my DS by poking its little informative belly.

[ArchonAlarion]

nature walks are not intrinsically correlated to any element.

If Einstein was doing it to experience lots of sensory data that might awaken new concepts as he meandered through the woods, than yeah that could be Si. I do the same thing.

[ArchonAlarion]

Is there a source for this explanation?

Me.

It seems pretty obvious.

[strrrng]

a newfag would not understand me and some oldfags would argue that Im batshit insane anyways.

A fag is a fag

okay... You know how Ti perceives in terms of explicit coherence? Like to put it simpler, logical consistency in systems?

So Ti does not rearrange itself, restructure, or change parameters based on Te. Its does so based on Fe. The objective motions of Fe (Fe = internal object dynamics) inspire changes in Ti structure. That is why they are complementary (or vice versa).

Right. It wouldn't need Te in the slightest – they both find logical order in judgment. The only possible way for Ti to reformat its structure, is by observing the intangible sequences that occur within said thing, and inspire variation in perspective of how it should be formatted/applied (Te processes are often viewed as redundant by Ti egos for this very reason).

[Logos]

Isn't that Ne? You see "flashes" not a development, right? I mean the observation is not intended for recreating the things but understanding static images.
Yes of course that Ne base function is directly Si DS, but that's because you're an ILE.

You can take the matter of Einstein's type in another thread. It is off-topic here.

[ArchonAlarion]

Isn't that Ne? You see "flashes" not a development, right? I mean the observation is not intended for recreating the things but understanding static images.
Yes of course that Ne base function is directly Si DS, but that's because you're an ILE.

Hmm, I meant more that whilst walking, I allow myself to sink into an introspective state. The experience of walking in an environment (preferably a themed one, like a forest or city) puts me in a mood and I'll begin subconsciously picking up the sensory data as I mull over whatever I'm thinking about. The impinging data lights up nodes, which I can then consciously relate to my current mental topic. and then perhaps trace back to the environment.

Its like the difference between being stuck in an empty room with just your thoughts or watching a movie. The movie will bring to light new ideas and concepts and will allow you to progress swifter mentally.

So the walk is a tangible and sensorical context (Si) which aids in surfacing new concepts/ideas/connections (Ne).

[iAnnAu]

"So instead of gauging the Ti against the Te, we measure its accuracy in terms of Fe. "
They do take this stuff seriously don't they? I mean I'm sure they're right, but what are they talking about?

I'm with you guys.

I've been wondering for some time if my propensity to do things like suddenly quit a job and/or move to a new town is related to DS - as in, I can't seem to bring adventure to myself, so I shake things up a bit & hope everything turns out well. I get bored with my own routines and I don't know how to ask those around me for help in breaking out of it - I feel like it's my responsibility anyway, but when I read about SLI/IEE duality, the thing that jumps out at me most is that they see multiple, including wacky, possibilities in any situation; that's the kind of fun I like to run with! I've tried coming up with my own ideas for adventure, but I'm more of a problem-solver than a scenario-inventor. Forcing myself to start from scratch throws unpredictable problems my way; that at least feels creative & occupies me for a while.

My daydream of duality: Partners in crime. IEE comes up with the crime, SLI works out the practical details, both tackle it ASAP before something else distracts us. And we giggle about it before, during and after. (NOTE: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ACTUAL BREAKING OF THE LAW, dammit.) I'd love to be able to do all this by myself, but I'm much more likely to be stuck in a rut and do something overblown than truly innovative to get out of it.

[Cyrano]

I'm with you guys.

I've been wondering for some time if my propensity to do things like suddenly quit a job and/or move to a new town is related to DS - as in, I can't seem to bring adventure to myself, so I shake things up a bit & hope everything turns out well. I get bored with my own routines and I don't know how to ask those around me for help in breaking out of it - I feel like it's my responsibility anyway, but when I read about SLI/IEE duality, the thing that jumps out at me most is that they see multiple, including wacky, possibilities in any situation; that's the kind of fun I like to run with! I've tried coming up with my own ideas for adventure, but I'm more of a problem-solver than a scenario-inventor. Forcing myself to start from scratch throws unpredictable problems my way; that at least feels creative & occupies me for a while.

My daydream of duality: Partners in crime. IEE comes up with the crime, SLI works out the practical details, both tackle it ASAP before something else distracts us. And we giggle about it before, during and after. (NOTE: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ACTUAL BREAKING OF THE LAW, dammit.) I'd love to be able to do all this by myself, but I'm much more likely to be stuck in a rut and do something overblown than truly innovative to get out of it.

I'm the same way. I pretty much drift along in my routine. Which I don't mind. Then a friend comes along and off we go. I don't spend much time analyzing it all. Quiting my job without another one in line, is a little crazy through IAnnau.

[Creepy-male]

My daydream of duality: Partners in crime. IEE comes up with the crime, SLI works out the practical details, both tackle it ASAP before something else distracts us. And we giggle about it before, during and after. (NOTE: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ACTUAL BREAKING OF THE LAW, dammit.) I'd love to be able to do all this by myself, but I'm much more likely to be stuck in a rut and do something overblown than truly innovative to get out of it.

I so want to be IEE now.

[iAnnAu]

I'm the same way. I pretty much drift along in my routine. Which I don't mind. Then a friend comes along and off we go. I don't spend much time analyzing it all. Quiting my job without another one in line, is a little crazy through IAnnau.

I've always been able to find new jobs quickly ... until last year, when the US Economy went into whichever circle of Dante's hell it is and decided to be buried face down in shit. That's why I'm going back to school for that most un-sexy of all degrees: Bus Admin.

I've done really well with clerical/admin temp jobs through the years. One summer I had a blast by choosing short-term assignments at the end of which I would go on aimless roadtrips until my money ran out. Lather, rinse, repeat. But I was 19 and living with my parents, so that couldn't last. I've also changed types of jobs frequently: I've been a waitress, a cook, a hostess; I managed a paintball field for 2 years; I changed oil at a lube center; I've tons loads of babysitting, especially for roommates in credit for rent; I had a home-organizing business; and I even (briefly) danced at a topless bar. I still can't find a job that suits me AND pays the bills, but I'm confident in my resourcefulness, which adds up to being quite willing to tell a shitty job to take a flying fuck. When a situation breaches my bullshit threshold, I'm backing toward the door regardless of actual escape "plans."

[ArchonAlarion]

I repeat: that's Ne. Gathering raw material for making connections.
Si DS is preventing unwelcome factors to interfere with your affair.
Please understand the difference.

Ah, but the whole point of complementary elements is that they work with eachother.

Internal object statics cannot exist by itself in the psyche. We can separate it abstractly as we do in discussion about it, but whilst in the human psyche it always works within the context of Si.

In other words, Ne needs a place to live. It needs a mold, an outer form to manifest in. It is internal after all.

So by dealing with external field dynamics (energized by a nature walk for example) we also implicitly deal with Ne.

Without Si, Ne would have no concrete manifestation. Like words substituting for pictures. It would have no context or progression. There would be no connections between one internal object static and another.

Imagine a black void where random letters flicker in and out of existence for ever and ever infinitely. That would be what Ne is like without Si.

Without Ne, Si would have no objects hence no discontinuation. Objects are discrete and allow us to separate and examine apart from the subject or other objects.

Imagine an infinite churning ocean. No land, no fish, no plants, no anything but water and it always looks the same. There is nothing to specify or separate. Thats like what Si is without Ne.

So my point was that the complementary elements work in tandem and that the nature walk is stimulating my Ne via Si, such as that particular information feedback loop works.

[Cyrano]

I've always been able to find new jobs quickly ... until last year, when the US Economy went into whichever circle of Dante's hell it is and decided to be buried face down in shit. That's why I'm going back to school for that most un-sexy of all degrees: Bus Admin.

I've done really well with clerical/admin temp jobs through the years. One summer I had a blast by choosing short-term assignments at the end of which I would go on aimless roadtrips until my money ran out. Lather, rinse, repeat. But I was 19 and living with my parents, so that couldn't last. I've also changed types of jobs frequently: I've been a waitress, a cook, a hostess; I managed a paintball field for 2 years; I changed oil at a lube center; I've tons loads of babysitting, especially for roommates in credit for rent; I had a home-organizing business; and I even (briefly) danced at a topless bar. I still can't find a job that suits me AND pays the bills, but I'm confident in my resourcefulness, which adds up to being quite willing to tell a shitty job to take a flying fuck. When a situation breaches my bullshit threshold, I'm backing toward the door regardless of actual escape "plans."

You would be good at anything, left alone to manage for yourself. I have a higher threshold for BS (and wouldn't look so good at the pole), but always seek to find my own niche. I work for Uncle Sam, heaven for ISTjs, but I've been able to carve out my own zone of freedom.

[Jarno]

The only way that I know of myself how the dual seeking function manifests itself, is when I see someone else use that function, I'm thinking: 'wow cool!'

[Brilliand]

When you say "mental association", do you mean conjuring up funny memories to entertain yourself? If so, I do that as well a lot, when there's no humorous things going on around me, like at work.

I mean, conjure up a fun memory and push the "fun" into something easier to conjure up - deliberately associating two things that aren't really related, sort of like a mnemonic. That's only slightly more complex than what you do, though.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

When i'm around someone who's using my dual seeking function, and I haven't been for a while, it can seem like it leaves a lingering impression on me for a couple of hours. It's like it's been woke up and stimulated, i'm aware of it's existance again, but then it fades and I need a fresh input.

[Danielle]

The only way that I know of myself how the dual seeking function manifests itself, is when I see someone else use that function, I'm thinking: 'wow cool!'

Yeah, that's all I could think of for myself. Like when I am reading things written by Te-types, I find it much easier to understand how things work so I can put them to use. I like to have step-by-step instructions for things, and if I am teaching someone else something (which is rare, I usually like to just handle it for them because I don't have the patience), I try to go step-by-step and connect everything. But usually, I just admire the use of Te in others.

[717495]

The only way that I know of myself how the dual seeking function manifests itself, is when I see someone else use that function, I'm thinking: 'wow cool!'

Good point, actually.