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Thread: ENTp is the most common type?

  1. #41

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    Are there any other ways to understand the differences between BT and what others often label "typologies", especially Jung/Myers?

    The Brain Typing system is far different than any other assessment methodology we’ve ever encountered. Of course, there are two sides to this issue as there are to all issues. (And by the way, if someone wants to be argumentative, one could debate any issue under the sun—regardless of position—and speak some truth into the argument.) One side of the coin is how BT resembles many typological approaches, especially Jung-Myers. We couldn’t agree more. If it weren’t for Jung, Briggs, Myers and other disciples of this form of typology, BT would not exist. The 8 letters we have shared with the public prior to 2003 are the same that scores of variations within Jungian typology employ. (We also have other terminology for a deeper and more scientific understanding of BT--some of which we have recently made public.) We, like all others who support the 8 mental preferences, owe complete gratitude to Carl Jung for 6 of them, and 2 to Myers and Briggs—neither of whom were psychologists). These three people and many thereafter, have provided a rich understanding of what the preferences mean as well as how each of the 16 Jung/Myers types generally operate.

    Before moving to the other side of the coin, let’s take a slight diversion and consider Katherine Briggs and Isabel Myers, mother and daughter. Speaking of Katherine Briggs in Isabel Myers’ book “Gifts Differing” (p. x):

    “Katherine, a thinker, a reader, a quiet observer became intrigued with similarities and differences in human personality about the time of World War I. She began to develop her typology, largely through the study of biography, and she then discovered that Jung had evolved a similar system which she quickly accepted and began to explore and elaborate.”

    It goes on to speak of daughter Isabel:

    “With no formal training in psychology or statistics, with no academic sponsorship or research grants, Myers began the painstaking task of developing an item pool that would tap the attitudes, feelings, perceptions, and behaviors of the different psychological types as she and her mother had come to understand them.”

    JN can strongly relate to the experiences of Katherine Briggs and Isabel Myers.

    Renowned temperament and personality type expert—and clinical psychologist, David Keirsey, Ph.D, writes in his best-selling book “Please Understand Me” (p. 15):

    (some 5 years out of graduate school)

    “And along comes a little old lady from Princeton New Jersey, Isabel Myers, to tell me about myself, about who I was and what I was good for. Oh, I already knew some of that stuff about myself, but I didn’t know that I was a kind or type of person, and that therefore there had to be others just like me.”

    Briggs and Myers have passed along numerous examples and benefits to us all.

    Back to the other side of the coin, there are numerous dissimilarities (in Brain Typing) to the understanding that millions of Jung-Myers advocates have on typology. Each of the 8 preferences we have attempted to take out of the ethereal realm of the mind and provide a basic cerebral understanding (cognitively, physically, and spatially). In this respect, BT’s definitions go further into each of the 8 preferences than any Jung-Myers supporters of which we are aware. For instance, rather than saying Judging (J) seeks closure, order, structure and so on, and Perceiving (P) is open-ended, adaptable, and non-judgmental, we try to help people see that “J” essentially describes the left brain and “P” correlates with the right hemisphere. (Actually lesser degrees of J and P are within both hemispheres but that is a more cavernous discussion and not relevant to this explanation.) So if Jung-Myers’ devotees can understand the basic right and left brain processes, they, too, can better comprehend why the aforementioned definitions of J and P make sense—even scientifically. Better yet, however, is that they can acquire a much deeper understanding of J and P by seeing how much more comprehensive they are from a cerebral perspective—far more than they ever imagined.

    From an athletic standpoint, right-brained P’s have much better [natural] spatial acuity—3 dimensional vision and peripheral awareness (especially when experiencing pressure in competition). For example, after having assessed (or Brain Typed) one of the top picks in a forthcoming draft a few years ago, JN was told by the team’s GM that the athlete scored in the top few of all time with a high-tech vision test (administered by an renowned eye specialist and professional)! The exam was especially designed to evaluate athletes requiring optimal vision. This covered all facets of sight, especially peripheral and stereoscopic vision. This highly regarded athlete was found to have “superior peripheral vision.” Also, His report read “He can physically adapt himself to visual changes as quickly and as well as anyone tested.” “His vision-motor performance was high in critical areas for a (his playing position.)” Understandably (for those who don’t comprehend BT), JN was told that if there was anything the team DIDN’T need to concern themselves with it was the young man’s visual giftedness—straight ahead and sideways.

    Knowing, however, the athlete’s specific Brain Type (which JN told the team but not the public) and that he was inherently heavily left-brained, JN told the team that the athlete would function poorly with the spatial awareness necessary for this man’s playing position. With all due respect, JN told them he didn’t care how well the young man “tested” in every area of vision; his inborn BT would never allow him to perform as they expected—physically and spatially. It would be equivalent to putting a 150-pound lineman in the NFL and expecting him to play all season against 300 lb. (and over) brutes. He just wouldn’t hold up over time and especially when the 300 pounders were mad and wanted to win—like in the playoffs. And by the way, the athlete under consideration—JN has never found his BT at point guard in the NBA.

    Well, sure enough, the young man with professionally-tested and supposed superior visual acuity was drafted—very high. The team paid a boat load of money for him, and guess what happened? Not only did he fail miserably at his position but he failed primarily because he couldn’t see the field or court before him! His peripheral vision was dreadful—especially under pressure. As he tried to direct his team, he became known as a gifted athlete yet one that resembled a “deer in headlights.” He repeatedly passed the ball into heavy defensive coverage. He couldn’t see the whole field/court of play. As far as BTI knows, only Brain Typing can point out this kind of limitation BEFORE it occurs—especially in pro ball. Yet, this gifted athlete was a STAR in college. Did his vision go bad all of a sudden? No, the pro game is much quicker and sophisticated than college ball and some problems do not manifest themselves until the highest levels of competition—all the more reason for knowing and applying Brain Typing (especially if you own or coach the team).

    JN’s book, “Your Key to Sports Success” goes to great length in explaining the much deeper aspects of Brain Typing as compared to Jung-Myers typology; 400 pages clearly demonstrate Brain Typing’s uniqueness and scientific emphasis.



    Why call it Brain Types® rather than personality or psychological types?

    Many typology advocates have loosely used the terms “personality or psychological types” to describe the 16 different kinds of people. JN is very uncomfortable with these expressions. When he first became exposed to the Jung-Myers theories, as a young disciple he tried to help others understand and identify the 16 “personality” or “psychological” types. Inevitably, many became confused when two persons JN was comparing (identified by type “experts” at the time) fell within the same Jung-Myers type—yet they appeared to have very differing personalities.

    Jung coined “function types” and “psychological types,” being quite precise in his label*s. He knew he had identified commonly shared yet distinguishable behavioral characteristics in the thousands of people he had studied. His era did not possess 21st century neuroscientif*ic and genetic evidence; therefore, he had to rely on older ideas of psychology (the study of the mind), and his empirical observations of people (as does JN empirically observe others, yet with an emphasis on modern-day scientific understanding). Thus, “psychological types" was a most appropriate label for Jung. Before long, however, people started using personality types to describe Jung’s classifications, rendering a vernacular more relevant to the layperson, removing it from the mysterious and often abstract world of psychological theories.

    “Personality” to the layperson conveys the sum total of the mental, emo*tion*al, and social characteristics of an individual. The term “personality,” however, originates from the Latin “persona.” It corresponds to the Greek word for face. Actors in an*cient Greece could perform more than one role on stage by donning differ*ent personas or masks. But type behav*ior is not dictated primarily by the faces we randomly choose to wear. Instead, BTI and others (including neuroscientists and geneticists) believe it is driven by the orderly and systematic func*tion of the brain, which controls not only our mental skills, but motor skills, as well. Jonathan Niednagel therefore coined and much prefers the term Brain Types to both “personality” and “psychological” types. He wants others to think of Brain Typing as describing the internal workings of the brain, an objective and tangible schematic allowing us to understand the neural regions/circuits that regulate our cerebral/mental/emotional and body actions. JN wants you to focus more on “why” you (or others) do what you do—from inborn neuroscientific and genetic perspectives. This doesn’t mean you need to know scientific intricacies but by just comprehending the raw basics, you’ll have a much greater understanding, appreciation, and tolerance for why folks (including yourself) do what they do. If cognitive traits have a significant and inborn biological basis, they are much easier to accept as “normal.”

    What greatly frustrated JN regarding “personality” or “psychological” types following his first serious exposure to them in the 1970s was their strong link to the abstract and ethereal “mind”. Having a “concrete” and “tangible” mindset, JN was compelled to take this conceptual typology and give it flesh—establishing a biological basis if possible. To convince himself and others, he knew it had to be measured tangibly and accurately. After studying this area intensively, JN believed there was a strong association to the brain and body. In addition, since he wasn’t a psychologist nor did he want to be connected in any way to psychology (even for personal spiritual reasons), JN attempted to distance himself as far as possible. He went through the time-consuming and costly process of Trademarking ® Brain Types and began publishing his findings regarding the brain and body. Much of JN’s findings have not been published, especially as they relate to genetics. Since there are those who have attempted to steal as well as undermine JN’s work, he is saving his proprietary information until completing his genetic studies—where he hopes and intends to establish patents on each Brain Type. For most this seems improbable, but for JN it seems a near reality.

    ...

    So in contrast with the Jung-Myers model of personality theory, BTI believes Brain Typing is able to:

    1/ identify the 16 different designs with greater accuracy (explained cerebrally, biologically, and physically),

    2/ demonstrate through empirical studies (and hopefully soon, genetics) they are inborn, indelible traits,

    3/ show the differences within each of the cerebral-mental processes and how they vary in function depending upon the brain hemisphere in which they reside,

    4/ empirically (including video digitization) measure the inborn motor skill proficiencies and deficiencies for each Type,

    5/ explain and demonstrate logically the reasons for variations within each Type, both cerebrally and physically.

    Though there are more contrasts than these 5 areas between the 2 methodologies, this should suffice for now. The distinctions between the 2 approaches are quite significant, to say the least.

    http://www.braintypes.com/questionsandanswers.htm
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

  2. #42
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    If functions are direct brain processes, how can some ethical types be good at math? Wold that mean that they're even better at things equivalent to Socionics ethic in BrainTypes than other ethical types? All i can see is a dissimilitude between BrainTypes and Socionics. If what BrainTypes measure is accurate, i can see how functions would be the abstract vehicles to the actual brain processes. Functions would be how our personnality uses the brain and not the result of direct potential. Anyways, whether functions are like i speculated or not, they don't seem to be the same thing as JN measures, resulting in Socionics type not being the same thing as BrainTypes type.

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    If functions are direct brain processes, how can some ethical types be good at math?
    ... because sometimes you should just learn to ignore your Ti and realize that everything doesn't fit into perfect systems.

    ... actually, JN is a Ti type, so I'm just kidding...


    Anyway, I think I'm going to start a thread on what I believe a "type" to really be.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    For one, I think ethics are more "attached" to their emotions while they right. Logics type in a more detached sort of way.. it's hard to explain. Ethics are also more consious of keeping the peace, whereas logical types are more prone to "attacking" people to get their point across.
    As a mass generalization then yes but it is far trickier than this. For example, someone with a preference towards ethics may attack when a value has been struck. In contrast, someone with a preference towards logic may seem peaceful because they are detached. The funny thing is that detached is also a connotation of Ni. I think the contrast with FeNi or NiFe is humorous because on part is so connected and the other is so disconnected lol. One part requires data from others while the other is the alien-esque instrospective. I'm sure this is part of the "grey" or "internal drama" etc. Eh, Im sure you get my point by now.

  5. #45
    Creepy-zonk

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    my closest area:
    entp: 3
    isfp: 6 (two man)
    intj: 4 (one woman)
    esfj: 5 (one man)
    infp: 5 (one man)
    estp: 2
    istj: 1
    esfp: 2
    isfj: 1
    intp: 5 (one woman)
    entj: 4 (one woman)
    istp: 8 (one woman)
    estj: 6
    infj: 2 (one man)
    enfp: 3 (one main)

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    The persons i've tested so far (friends and family) :
    4 ENTPs (myself and 3 friends )
    5 INTPs (father, uncle, sister, 2 friends)
    3 ENFPs (mother, 2 friends )
    2 ESFJs (uncle, aunt )
    1 ESFP (relative )
    2 ENFJ ( sister, friend )
    3 ISTJs ( brother, uncle, aunt)
    1 INFJ ( aunt)
    2 ISTPs ( friends )
    When in doubt, start a war :wink:
    ENTP

  7. #47
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    Entp's by nature are fascinated by new and interesting things... I think it's just that ENTP's are more likely to explore/consider these ideas and get into them, thus the stronger prevalence of them on certain polls.

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    <something> Wynch's Avatar
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    Wow, old thread...


    Or perhaps consider the social effects of history. Following the scientific and industrial revolutions a greater emphasis was put on education and on logical thinking. With the creation of the scientific method the world became, more or less, a Ti society pushed forward with Te drive. So in a society where, from as young as 4 or 5, people are encouraged (which I don't think is an extreme enough word) to apply logical systems to everything you're going to see people automatically valuing T-functions.

    Meanwhile, when you're around the age where you start looking into these things (a lot of us seem to be doing it late-teens and into their twenties, judging by the trends I've observed here) you're in the middle of a phase in your life where you're exploring what it means to accept your own identity. If you've just gone through so many years where everything is about logical and innovative thinking before all else, then it shouldn't be a surprise that a lot of people will identify with ILE. Add to that the knowledge that a lot of people go through an awkward social phase in their teens where they're unsure of their relationships (Fi PoLR), the fact that psychology proves that adolescents are by nature ego-centric (Fe HA), the fact that teens and young adults are more prone to a rebellious nature (Se Role), not to mention the idea that adolescents and adults in their 20's are more prone to experimenting and doing things that most would consider a little crazy (alphas, lol) then what do you get? A lot of supposed ENTp's.

    And do you think a lot of those people follow that idea through to completion? Perhaps not. A lot of people just take some vague test in school, it tells them they're ILE, they read the profile at face value and say "Yup, sounds like me." and move on. Look at how many people on this forum think they're ILE and then have people tossing around other ideas. Leon (Mr. Saturn) is a perfect example.

    It's quite possible that there are a lot of ILE's out there, but I'm skeptical. Less than 1% of the people I know even have a shot at being ILE, and I only know 1 person for sure.
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  9. #49
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    I actually approach socionics with the assumption that the types are fairly evenly distributed. Almost any assumption like that is almost necessarily a priori, you still have to take a stance. To me, assuming a consistently uneven distribution of types is like assuming that there will always be significantly more of one gender than the other. Also, very few societies seem to represent Alpha values on a large scale, which is not what one would expect if ENTps were truly more common. As some have mentioned, ENTp is kind of presented as a "prestige type" in many tests, as the description of extraversion, intuition, thinking, and perception come of as social desirable traits: outgoing, intelligent, reasonable, and flexible, respectively. Even an attempt to produce connotatively positive substitutes for the opposite traits (say, thoughtful, practical, agreeable, and conscientious) do not sound as cool as the way ENTps are described.

    Additionally, BrainTypes guy types almost exclusively by motor skills. Though I do believe muscle movement patterns do strongly reflect personality, Niednagel looks at skills, and almost anyone that appears more skilled in abstract reasoning than in a certain kinesthetic activity (i.e., most people) will come up as xNTP, and with the normal American social emphasis on the need to be personable and outgoing, most will be typed as ENTp, or "FCIR" in his typology. In regards to a large number quarterbacks being ENTps, that might be an interesting thing to look into. I can tell you right away that of the last four quarterbacks to win the Superbowl (Eli Manning, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Ben Rothlisberger), I do not believe any of them to be ENTp going off what little I know about them. But it might be interesting to look into the types of quarterbacks.

    JRiddy
    —————King of Socionics—————

    Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so

  10. #50
    <something> Wynch's Avatar
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    I agree with regards to even distribution. Perhaps I just like symmetrical reasoning, but I find it illogical to believe that there would be more of one type than another in such a high percentage as to say, conclusively, that XXX is the most common type.

    What you said about ENTp as having popular superficial interpretation also rang true for me. As you said, who wouldn't want to be "outgoing, intelligent, reasonable, and flexible". Similarly there is this misconception about extroversion/introversion and thinking/feeling that is both difficult for the outsider to judge by, and somewhat confusing for the individual. For whatever reason, people seem to confuse extroversion with outgoingness and introversion as shyness or social awkwardness, which is simply untrue. That, in itself, probably causes a lot of people to mistype themselves. Additionally, people seem to think that thinking and feeling are mutually exclusive, which they aren't. Being a "feeling" type doesn't mean that you are illogical, it simply means that ethics/feelings are more natural and of a higher priority to you. Even then, both parts can work hand-in-hand. So a lot of people will see "feeling/ethics" as the anti-thesis of "thinking/logic" and say "I'm not illogical!" thereby completely disregarding half of the 16 types as "not theirs".
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  11. #51
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    All I can say is probably 5.1% of the world's population is ILE.

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    But where are you getting this number?

    EDIT: Also, that would go with mine and Riddy's average idea, since 5&#37; is a little less than 1/16th
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    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    But where are you getting this number?
    I use a computer program to compile statistics on everyone I've typed; the sample is by no means unbiased.

    I'm not really sure there are any theoretical reasons for an even type distribution, but it's consistent with my observations and I tend to assume it anyway, for the same reason that I assume that any inconsistencies I see mean I'm missing something rather than a problem with socionic theory - every time I do it ends up being right. Here are the rest of the current stats, btw:

    ILE: 0.051
    SEI: 0.068
    ESE: 0.073
    LII: 0.054
    SLE: 0.038
    IEI: 0.058
    EIE: 0.066
    LSI: 0.066
    SEE: 0.054
    ILI: 0.068
    LIE: 0.063
    ESI: 0.077
    IEE: 0.066
    SLI: 0.063
    LSE: 0.049
    EII: 0.06

    It's basically even, as you can see - and it used to be much less so. This includes only people I've met IRL, and no one from the16types.

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    <something> Wynch's Avatar
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    Well I'm glad this isn't an arbitrary number (not that I think you would pull something entirely out of you ass, but I'm a history major after all, sources for facts = key )

    And it's cool that you've kept a record of this and it seems so even. If I had any kind of long-term motivation, I would try that.
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    Distribution of types depends upon where you are in the world, but from my observations, in central and eastern (especially eastern) Virginia and from people I know of who lived in Florida, ILE-Ti are pretty common. But I don't think they're the most common, especially in the third world. Most ILE-Ti are females (55-78% of ILE-Ti alive today are females). MBTI statistics don't correlate well with socionics.

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    I've taken note of a few disparate statistics here and there - the distribution of some agreed phenotypical representation seems to be equal

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    Not very likely. Stability wise I see very little sense for this to happen. I don't really know but I don't see ILE's jumping out more frequently just by basing this on being in front of many people within close enough proximity ... just enough to get a glimpse.

    I can't say really about the numbers whether is it the average or below or maybe slightly above.
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    I agree with David Keirsey who mentions in his book "please understand me II" that intuitives only make up around 15% of the population. he spend over 4 decades analysing types from many different angles. there are no statistics obviously, but Ni base types seem to be the rarest in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    Not very likely. Stability wise I see very little sense for this to happen. I don't really know but I don't see ILE's jumping out more frequently just by basing this on being in front of many people within close enough proximity ... just enough to get a glimpse.

    I can't say really about the numbers whether is it the average or below or maybe slightly above.
    If it's ok to ask... What do you mean by "stability wise"?
    Last edited by Disturbed; 09-15-2019 at 09:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disturbed View Post
    If it's ok to ask... What do you mean by "stability wise"?
    I don't particularly see ILE's being very good for society in larger amounts at least how majority of people likes to conduct their lives.
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    ENTP mb the most type wrongly assigned to themselves by Jung typology fans
    Augustinavichiute could be the 1st such she may to have EIE
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    I don't think it's very likely that Gulenko mistyped her when he directly interacted with her, especially if she would be an EIE, a very demonstrative and emotionally expressive type.

    IMG_20190916_213549_021.jpg

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    Not all EIE are "very demonstrative and emotionally expressive". They're definitely not expressive all the time.

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    Isn't ILE supposed to be some sort of Promethean genius above the common herd? If it's the most common type now, goes to show what people abusing typology to fulfill their fantasies because they're not willing to get out of life what they put in does to people's perceptions of types.

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    I wonder what emotions have done to Sol. Did his parents chain him to chair to watch beta drama including opera and have a sing along with a soprano 24/7?
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

  26. #66
    16t Poet Laureate coeruleum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heretic 007 View Post
    I wonder what emotions have done to Sol. Did his parents chain him to chair to watch beta drama including opera and have a sing along with a soprano 24/7?
    This is definitely what happened.

  27. #67
    FreelancePoliceman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coeruleum View Post
    Isn't ILE supposed to be some sort of Promethean genius above the common herd? If it's the most common type now, goes to show what people abusing typology to fulfill their fantasies because they're not willing to get out of life what they put in does to people's perceptions of types.
    I’ll tell you a closely-kept secret: it’s Alpha NTs in general that are smarter than everyone else. All that makes ILEs special is that they have better Fe and can better convince the masses of their genius.

    Don’t tell anyone!

  28. #68
    16t Poet Laureate coeruleum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    I’ll tell you a closely-kept secret: it’s Alpha NTs in general that are smarter than everyone else. All that makes ILEs special is that they have better Fe and can better convince the masses of their genius.

    Don’t tell anyone!
    Even if for some reason I thought some people were secret geniuses and this served some beneficial purpose, now I wouldn't have to tell anyone!

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