The point is that the Universe is not eternal. However, God is eternal.
God is the creator of the Universe.
The point is that the Universe is not eternal. However, God is eternal.
God is the creator of the Universe.
Every material thing has a beginning and an end. The Universe is material. God is not material
The current state of the universe has an origin, but the universe "caused" itself through some, since they are not understandtable, inherently supernatural means. While I note the validity of your statement, I am merely proposing another, very viable scenario.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
Sorry, I'm not sure what the other scenario is.
If you are talking about the Big Bang, then I am not saying it did not happen. What I am saying is, is that if it did happen, then it happened because God made it happen.
Or that's what was just bound to happen.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
Anything that happens has a cause. The cause of the universe and big bang is God.
fdgd
You people never learn, do you? NEVER EVER ARGUE WITH GUESTS! They aren't human. They are just a sub-species that exists only to destroy the sanity and structure of the public forum. :wink:Originally Posted by admin
But seriously, note the above quote.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Because God is eternal, God was not caused.What caused God?
God is real. You see God's creations. That is proof that God exists.
fddfg
You're what I like to call a "logic newb." You have NO IDEA what you're talking about.God is real. You see God's creations. That is proof that God exists.
Prove it.
LOL!You people never learn, do you? NEVER EVER ARGUE WITH GUESTS! They aren't human. They are just a sub-species that exists only to destroy the sanity and structure of the public forum. :wink:
But seriously, note the above quote.
But Guest, what religion do you fallow? /Kristiina makes a note never to join that religion./
When I was younger me and my sister volunteerly went to baptist sunday school. Whenever we had a question that the teachers didn't know the answer to, they would just say "God is great. We humans cant understand the mysterious ways of God." But I think that if I have really tried to understand something and still don't, it's because it's BS. It just doesn't make sense.
No, Guest, you prove it. Or on the other hand - please don't. :wink: I don't want to hear you try... You already tried and failed. "God is eternal"...bla bla bla. There is no way you could possibly know this for a fact...Prove it.
Sorry, that last reply was from me.
I usually log in automatically, so I didn't check if I'm logged in.
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
Every material thing has a beginning, therefore these things are not infinite. It is God that made these things come into existence, who is infinite.
I've made a point that no one else on this forum has really argued against. There are no real arguments against the existence of God.
If God does not exist then what is the purpose of life?
If God did not exist then there would be no obligation to do good deeds and there would be no need to exist.
fgdfg
People who deny God denies themself and what there purpose in life is.
People know God exists but deny God's existence because if they accepted God they would have to lead a good life. Most people want to do what ever they want - that's the perfect way to self-destruction.
People want to avoid talking about what will happen after there death. What happens after a person dies depends on how what they do in the present life.
I think I've provided enough reason for people to believe in God. People can carry on denying God, but those people who do are fooling themselves.
Fine, I'll take a crack at it!I've made a point that no one else on this forum has really argued against. There are no real arguments against the existence of God.
Let me start off with those good ol' Church goers. I'm talking about people who follow the Bible perfectly and go to Church every week. These people should be in God's good graces, should they not? Well guess what, they're not. I know because plenty of these 'extra' good people have terrible things happen to them and their families just like EVERY SINGLE person on this planet. No more, no less. I think sometimes Churches actually HURT peole. They tell them that "God has a plan" for pretty much everyone and everything that happens. This might sound nice to a kid thinking that they are going to grow up to be something great, but that's not what it is saying. It says that all the GOOD and BAD happens because God wants it to happen. If something bad happens to you it's your own fault, you deserve it and God hates you. Maybe if they said it like that it wouldn't sound so good. "God has a plan" is for people who are completely lost themsleves and just hope something will change for the better BY ITSELF. The truth is that if you want something for the better, YOU have to do it, not God! Some people will believe in what they are told by the Church, do everything right, then have something terrible happen to their family. And how do they explain it? "Well God must have had this happen for a reason." THEY HAVE BEEN BRAIN WASHED! They start to think what they did to make God upset at them, why this happened to them, blah blah blah. The truth is that it didn't happen for a reason, shit happens. This is the ultimate of what is called self-deception. I've mentioned that term before, and if you want anything to make your life clearer it is not accepeting that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, but accept that people are influenced WAY TOO MUCH by this thing called self-deception. Let me explain. There are two ways you can take in information if something conflicts with the way you think. You can either change the facts and what you see around you to fit the belief in your head, or you can change what you thought before to fit what is actually there. As you can imagine, a large majority of people chose the first one over the second. The second choice even sounds kind of scary. By the way, this is how people manage to be brain washed (HINT HINT- religon does this too). You have to learn to look at things through an objective eye and try to see things from the real world perspective all the time. If you did that you would realize that God does not have a plan for everyone. If that were true than God would purposely create evil people and put them in this world just so the could go to hell. This might be a scary concept but God is not watching over you, you have to live your life for yourself.
And like I said before, trying to explain God is a nasty rabbit-hole that you haven't tried to explore. I know you're probably going to come back with a bullshit answer like "Well God can't be explained" but that's not good enough. That's the point.
P.S. I think Guest is Islamic.
Actually you raised a good point.
Basically what I undertsand from what you said is, "Do things happen because of God will or because of human will?"
Everythings runs by the will of God.
Ultimately, everything happens due to the will of God. However, it is the will of God that people have free-will.
If Jerry smashes their neighbours car up, Jerry is responsible for his bad deed. However the result of the bad deed (ie the smashed up car) is the will of God.
It people's evil intentions and actions that are evil. But what ever happens is not evil.
God is All-Powerful.
Guest's God
I have always believed that there is a so-called absent god. This god is so far beyond our finite human level. It has no power to operate in the physical world. It is the Source from which we derive life. It doesn’t have pride, it doesn’t have anger, it doesn’t have love, or any other petty human-level emotion. It doesn’t need our prayers. It doesn’t NEED. It is simply the Prime Mover or a Primal Cause or Cosmic Consciousness that started everything.
The absconded deity is exactly I how I see the Christian God. I believe the ‘no’ answers to prayer are because there is simply no response to prayer from this deity as prayer means nothing in the realm of this Ultimate Deity. The 'yes' answers are simply our Will acting. This Will is a connection between people of their wishes and desires that rise from their spirit and unite in powerful change in our world. Prayer doesn't go up and blessings come down, WE empower ourselves with the strength of our belief in MIND.
Back to Christianity. When Jesus said, “He was a murderer from the first, and he has nothing to do with the truth, for there is no truth in him.” He was speaking of the God by whom the coming of death into the world is explained in the book of Genesis. He is the deity who first made Adam capable of evil, and then condemned him to death for the quality he himself had made. He is the author of death, the destroyer, and torturer of his own creation. He is, again, as Jesus said, “a murderer from the first.” The God to whom Jesus gave honor was not a murderer, and the sons of this Father were not subject to the bondage of Adam. Jesus believed in the MIND of his God which is Science and the human Will.
I am picking on Christians here but this relates to all faiths that believe in 'God.'
Think about this for a minute. Christians believe their God is capable of any miracle. If your son/daughter was hit by a car and subsequently lying in the hospital, you would pray for her healing. If she was smashed all over the road in pieces like a deer hit by a semi, you would never pray for God to put her back together and let her get up off the road and walk. You would scream in horror. Why? Because you don't believe it’s possible. Then you do not believe in your God.
Infidelity does not consist of believing or not believing. It consists of professing to believe what you do not believe.
A person does not have to believe in God to order to live a moral life. Moral values are the products of socio-biological evolution. The ten commandments were rules for a peaceful society. Morality is simply personal taste (such as abortion) and social behavior. If we are immoral, it is only to our personal disadvantage and destruction.
Thanks for listening!
Cone's Mom (He'll love this!)
Guest's God Again
Oh, and Guest, if you want to discuss God please go to a God related forum. This one if for intellegent beings!
Cone's Mom
an INFP !!
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
If a person does not believe in God, then why would he believe he has moral obligations? It come down to what the purpose of life is.
The most intelligent person is the one who believes in God and knows the purpose and meaning of life.
No one here said they didn't believe in 'God'. We Science/Mind oriented people believe differently, that's all. My god/power exists in all that surrounds me. I call upon the energy of life that unites all that exists. My god is not a deity separate from me. It is not a deity at all. I am empowered by my Will and the MIND of my god, which is Science. I am a Wiccan if it must be known.
And moral obligations simply make life easier to live. I don't like looking over my shoulder. So a liffle sacrifice is necessary.
"Food and a victim. That is all men require. Food for the belly; a victim for their lust. ****** knew this. That is why he was successfull . . . that is why there were no slaves following him blindly, but satisfied and exultant monsters who loved h im for what he had done for them."
Taylor Caldwell, 'Time No Longer'
Laws of society were made to hide the bestialty of men. In the academic and scientific worlds there is no good or evil. Science is nothing but survival and theory. This is all men are. All we have evolved to be.
Believe what you want, of course, like you need my permission to do so! But again, this is not the forum for this dicsussion. Why are you here? Forget it; don't anwer that one. Bye!
Cone's Mom
INFP and PROUD OF IT!
Why carry on living (let alone carry out moral obligations) if life has no meaning. (Of course life does have meaning).
I wasn't going to say anything if admin didn't create this topic. But he did.
Oh God!
Fine! Life has meaning: GET ALL YOU CAN WHILE YOU CAN!
That's the core of most people I know!
Cone's Mom
INTP
I'm staying off this board for a while!
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Admin
Admin made a statement and not an invitation for discussion/debate.
I am 48 years old (a mom remember!), born a Jew, raised a Christian. Found only recently that which answers the questions of my mind and satisfies the longings of my heart. Took a while, but it was worth the wait.
My wish is that everyone find joy, and I mean JOY! in their faith and walk with their God.
God is a prism. How you see him depends on where you are standing.
"Believe those that seek the truth. Beware those that find it."
(Can't remember the author here!)
Cone's Mom
INFP, maybe that's why I'm nuts!
Gotta stay off here or Cone will kill me!
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Sorry!
One last thing: Sorry to all you who had to read all this God stuff.
I'm an INFP and can't leave a good discussion alone! I know you'll understand!
Bye! And I mean it!
Cone's Mom
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
There is nothing wrong with joy, but the Truth is more important than anything.
"There is nothing wrong with joy, but the Truth is more important than anything."
A completely unbased assertion.
"Every material thing has a beginning, therefore these things are not infinite. It is God that made these things come into existence, who is infinite."
Another completely unbased assertion.
"I've made a point that no one else on this forum has really argued against. There are no real arguments against the existence of God."
Read Steve's point.
"f God does not exist then what is the purpose of life?"
Does it matter? Life is worth living, regardless of whether there's a purpose for it; that is, unless you don't particularly enjoy life, in which case it isn't worth living.
"If God did not exist then there would be no obligation to do good deeds and there would be no need to exist."
Wrong.
1. The neccessity to do good deeds is simply rooted in the fact that doing good deeds not only helps out others, but helps out the whole, and thus, helps you out as well.
2a. As stated above, life is worth living regardless if it is meaningful, so as long as you enjoy it.
2b. The meaning of life can exist even without a deity of some sort; for instance, a supernatural "material", an objective entity of some sort, could exist that forms this "meaning of life." The existence of meaning for our lives, the existence of a significance of it, does not neccessitate a personal deity.
"People who deny God denies themself and what there purpose in life is."
Wrong, see above.
"People know God exists but deny God's existence because if they accepted God they would have to lead a good life. Most people want to do what ever they want - that's the perfect way to self-destruction."
This is incorrect; one's quality of life does not hinge upon the degree to which one follows your Christian tenets; the quality of one' s life is hinged upon the degree to which one is detached from one's desires, the degree to which one fully "experiences" life without acting upon one's impulses. That is the way to happiness.
"I think I've provided enough reason for people to believe in God. People can carry on denying God, but those people who do are fooling themselves."
How are they fooling theirselves when there's no evidence for the existence of A deity, let alone the Christian deity??
"People want to avoid talking about what will happen after there death. What happens after a person dies depends on how what they do in the present life."
Unfounded assertion.
"I think I've provided enough reason for people to believe in God. People can carry on denying God, but those people who do are fooling themselves."
No you haven't, and the second part is, again, and unfounded assertion.
"If a person does not believe in God, then why would he believe he has moral obligations? It come down to what the purpose of life is."
Addressed above.
"The most intelligent person is the one who believes in God and knows the purpose and meaning of life."
Unfounded assertion.
EDIT- I added some points to areas of the guest's arguments that I forgot to address.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
Deities
Thanks MS!
Deities are created by our belieif in them. Nothing more!
Cone's Mom
MS, lets get back to the discussion about the origin of the universe again. You did not respond after I said Anything that happens has a cause. The cause of the universe and big bang is God.
Re: Deities
If people created dieties, then who created people and everything else.
Let's get back to the origin of the universe and the purpose of life. These are issues that people in this forum seem to be avoiding. Probably because they can't give an adequate response.
How 'bout a 'what' and not a 'who'. Obviously you didn't read my post about the prime mover. And as far as having a discussion or answering questions with you, it's a total waste of time. I have tried and proven my theories to my satisfaction and I'm the only person I have to satisfy or answer to. (Oh, I know your answer to that one!) Live in the euphoria of your own mind. I base my life on facts/science, not etherical fiction. This bantering is a total waste of time and space here. Believe what you want about why we don't answer you. You are a waste of my time NO LONGER!
Cone's Mom
Like I said, I'm an INFP. Why do I do these things!
I did see the stuff about the Prime Mover. But you also said:
Deities are created by our belieif in them. Nothing more!
Correct me if I'm wrong but your statements seem to contradict each other.
People were created by evolution. (If you are Islamic, they might not have taught you that in school. Look it up. It makes sense!) Then people thought that they are too weak to live their lives and they thought that someone smarter must exist. When enough people thought that, deity's were created. By now, there are probably also heaven and hell.
Guest, people like you make me believe less in God. I don't want to be a mindless creature like you. You are not doing the world (or God) a favor by arguing here. I actually believe in God and I think that he is similar to what Cone's Mom described. When I read your comments I will do anything to be different from you. "I have brains! I really do! I promise!!!"
PS! If you are Islamic and you want me to believe in the same thing, then why would I be moral?! If I understand it correctly, there will be 72 virgins waiting for men in the heaven. What happens to women? I have no idea. If I was a man, I would I end up in a heaven with lots of sexy chicks in it. Let's imagine that there was a typo in the Quran and women will also go there... OK, I could live in a heaven like that... Might be fun... :wink: But not for all eternity. I like MEN!
PPS! Even in a liberal Islamic country I would have been stoned to death years ago!
And Cone's Mom... You are cool. Especially for a woman who is 48 years old. But I would think that you are cool even if you were 20. Your views of life are very young. I was raised Christian and a couple of years ago I was almost completely atheist. I believe more now, because I don't go to church anymore. I got so fed up with the mindless robots in churches. Exactly like a cult. Satanism almost sounds better but I don't think they have a rule against killing so It's not the right religion. In general I agree with Satanist beliefs more that with Christian beliefs.
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
I agree with everything Cone's Mom and Kristiina said. I believe that there could be a God, but not the way Guest is describing things.
So you're into the 73-some as well?
P.S. I'm Jewish
Rubbish, not every islamic nation is like Saudi Arabia.PPS! Even in a liberal Islamic country I would have been stoned to death years ago! Embarassed
" Anything that happens has a cause. The cause of the universe and big bang is God."
I'm pretty sure I did. The cause of the universe and the big bang is....THE UNIVERSE! I don't see how a self-causing universe is any less likely to exist than a self-causing, personal diety.
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