Deltas your views and experiences with Fe

[UDP]

What do you think of it, Deltas?
Share your experiences


So, now living with an ESFj, I am really getting the full ESE in living quarters treatment. So many questions, about everything. Particularly when I'm working. And you can tell when you don't respond to there Fe efforts to make the situation "happy", that they feel like you don't like them. Which is not the case at all, I'm just not interested in that right now. I'm busy with something.

I will refrain from speaking about working with Fe women at this time.

In closing I will mention the first time a teacher has tried to manipulate me, ever. She is an art teacher, and, tried to make me feel bad because I was tired in her class and yawning (It is boring material anyway, but last week was superbusy in terms of everything else going on in my life). She made it seem like I was totally disrespecting her, the class, and the art. Yet when people do that it just loses all my respect. I am very tempted to confront her on this and say - look, I do not appreciate your attempts to emotional manipulate me, or try to shame me. It is so cheap and fake.

[Suomea]

What do you think of it, Deltas?
In closing I will mention the first time a teacher has tried to :Fe: manipulate me, ever. She is an art teacher, and, tried to make me feel bad because I was tired in her class and yawning (It is boring material anyway, but last week was superbusy in terms of everything else going on in my life). She made it seem like I was totally disrespecting her, the class, and the art. Yet when people do that it just loses all my respect. I am very tempted to confront her on this and say - look, I do not appreciate your attempts to emotional manipulate me, or try to shame me. It is so cheap and fake.

Don't think that's Fe manipulation. I think she was just very responsive to the lack of Fe on your part and more specifically the depletion of Fe in the classroom. If you made no attempts to hide your yawning I would take offense to this as well because... while you may not notice this, it takes away from the interest of others.

[xyz]

Bull! I call it manipulation. It's only gonna get worse buddy.

[Suomea]

Bull! I call it manipulation. It's only gonna get worse buddy.

I think it's more manipulation towards Fe than Fe manipulation if anything.

[UDP]

That's not ...

Disrespecting?
is not really about disrespect..

If it was she would have asked, "Are you tired?" Or "Wake up." Or "Pay Attention Mr. Courage"

She wouldn't guilt trip you into paying attention.

That is absolutely not true hkkmr - you make it sound like there is no mean side to Fe. You must have never seen an ESFj or any other ego block type be displeased with someone.

[Jarno]

ESFJ's aren't very manipulative is my own experience.

[UDP]

Hm, I suppose that is legitimate. My teacher is probably ENFj... theatre, drama, .... makes sense.

[Mea]

That's not ...

Disrespecting?
is not really about disrespect..

If it was she would have asked, "Are you tired?" Or "Wake up." Or "Pay Attention Mr. Courage"

She wouldn't guilt trip you into paying attention.

No. Wow. I think Joy might be right you've got Fe/Fi mixed up.

Anyway, ALL ethical types are more likely to use emotional manipulation, but they do it differently.

[detail]

It can be and . You guys seem to forget that you are also part of the equation so if you are , then people might be more wary of you and types may act friendlier than they'd do with a type and vice versa.

[Lobo]

What is your take on the role of Fe in members of the delta quadra?

Personally, I find that dominants (ESFjs at least) are people that set it as a priority to ensure that there is a feeling of love or friendship in the environment, regardless if it's actually true in the inside. I do feel for them in this regard, since it must be frustrating and sad for them to not be able to sustain such an ambience or remain in a place where people openly express their feelings at the moment. I think that the question that they might not be able to answer at times is why do people choose to be negative and nasty when they can be nice and polite?

in order in delta:

• Third function of ESTj
  Polr for an ISTp
  Seventh function of INFj
  Eigth function of ENFp

These are my perceptions for each of the quadra members: (I highlight to save me the effort of typing imo in all the lines :wink

--ESTj:
I find that they are, in general, profficient in using Fe as part of their business/enterprising mentality, and I think that it improves their personal detachment from work as well. They respond well to it, and understand its importance in the social aspects of relations. Being that Fi is their dual seeking, it might be at times confusing to distinguish between the two.

--ISTp:
I'm not going to write what I think an Fe polr is since it will sound really redundant, and I'm no socionics expert (besides I'm feeling a little lazy right now and don't want to make this thread too serious ). What I do know is from my experiences with ISTps. One thing I have noticed is that they are affectionate towards me and vice-versa, something that does not really happen with other types. It's like we sync in a way. However, they actually prefer to be the one giving the affection when they feel like it rather than the other way around. That gives me a little more power over them .

--INFj:
My theory which is based on things that I have read is that the seventh function is in a way the "put-down" function. Fe to me is something that I appreciate and mostly understand, but it tires me and makes me feel that I am not being myself. When I am in a very Fe situation I can handle my own, but after a certain period I feel that I need a break. Unfortunately, I don't really feel that I truly appreciate it. I assure you though that at times when I am alone after being positively affected, I think to myself how nice that there are Fe people in the world :wink:.

--ENFp:
Being that it's their 8th function, I find it hard to actually separate the person from the function in this case. I get the impression that the 8th in a way is embedded into the personality in the unconscious level. To be honest, I don't have anything to say about ENFp's and Fe, maybe they could elaborate.

Hopefully this will be enough to start a good thread.

[UDP]

-ESTj:
I find that they are, in general, profficient in using Fe as part of their business/enterprising mentality, and I think that it improves their personal detachment from work as well. They respond well to it, and understand its importance in the social aspects of relations. Being that Fi is their dual seeking, it might be at times confusing to distinguish between the two.

I'm a heavy Te subtype, so it might be different for me than most. Fe is only there for me if it helps work, of if I feel the team needs a boost. I don't mind it so long as the team is productive. As it says on this profile......

"Rage is a mighty god of the strong". He tends to take other people out of the condition of complacency. He does not speak much about what is good, considers it self-evident. With his grumbling emotions he strives to extinguish emotions of others. He believes that redundant emotions tire people, and this is absolutely true if applied to his dual (The Humanist). During a conversation he pressures his interlocutor, even tries to intimidate him, but if people do not fear him, he becomes courteous and polite. Fury is his line of defense in a situation of emergency in which he feels otherwise helpless. The aim of his fury is to mobilize his partner, and when this is achieved, he calms down.

http://the16types.info/types.php?typename=ESTJ

That is generally how I use Fe.


I generally do not offer a lot of Fe to other people if I am just going about my business. But that isn't necessarily a good thing. I know I need to be a bit nicer and more bubbly than I am currently to come off as a super nice guy. Yet for me right now I am still trying to figure out how to play my cards right - I am mature and somewhat reserved (signature), and yet, I want to do what I need to in order to properly facilitate things.


I would say Fe is very related to Si for ESTjs, because if their Si is uncomfortable, or Fi not comfortable (ethical rules of the situation), then their Fe usage will not be as positive as it could be. For me it seems a decent part of Fe is planning, and knowing ahead of time, how you want to act and respond to things. But that is going more in depth, perhaps unnecessarily at this time.

[mr_maguoo]

The ESTj's reaction to is poor, from my observations. They can easily distingush between and as they cannot handle naturally.

[UDP]

Like LIEs I suppose, our version of Fe is just "force"!

I would not say I handle it very well in general. Not artfully.

[Lobo]

I'm a heavy Te subtype, so it might be different for me than most. Fe is only there for me if it helps work, of if I feel the team needs a boost. I don't mind it so long as the team is productive. As it says on this profile......

Quote:
"Rage is a mighty god of the strong". He tends to take other people out of the condition of complacency. He does not speak much about what is good, considers it self-evident. With his grumbling emotions he strives to extinguish emotions of others. He believes that redundant emotions tire people, and this is absolutely true if applied to his dual (The Humanist). During a conversation he pressures his interlocutor, even tries to intimidate him, but if people do not fear him, he becomes courteous and polite. Fury is his line of defense in a situation of emergency in which he feels otherwise helpless. The aim of his fury is to mobilize his partner, and when this is achieved, he calms down.

http://the16types.info/types.php?typename=ESTJ

That is generally how I use Fe.

Where exactly in the quote are you referring to about Fe? the courteous and polite part?

I believe that the paragraph is explaining Te rather than Fe. Extinguishing emotions for productivity is definitely not Fe. I do know what the line in the description means all too well.

I generally do not offer a lot of Fe to other people if I am just going about my business. But that isn't necessarily a good thing. I know I need to be a bit nicer and more bubbly than I am currently to come off as a super nice guy. Yet for me right now I am still trying to figure out how to play my cards right - I am mature and somewhat reserved (signature), and yet, I want to do what I need to in order to properly facilitate things.

Like LIEs I suppose, our version of Fe is just "force"!

I would not say I handle it very well in general. Not artfully

Do you think "influencing" describes it better than "force"?

mr_maguoo Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:49 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The ESTj's reaction to Fe is poor, from my observations. They can easily distingush between Fe and Fi as they cannot handle Fe naturally.

Well... It depends on the situation. I have met ESTjs who seem to prefer Fe, especially around peers (this assuming that they are aware of the Fi dual-seeking). I guess it's because they want to impress them or look "cool". They are one way when alone, then another person with other people. That's one difference between Fe and Fi. Also, I can only offer speculation since I don't really understand what's going on in their minds; why they choose to do some things rather than others. What I do know, and to what I believe is a high level of accuracy, when something is Fe or Fi based. What it comes down to is consistency and intent. Fe changes with the situation and the people to influence, while Fi does not. Based on preference I am more towards Fi than Ne, which might make me more perceptive to these differences.

You could also use ISTps as your pH measure, they feel the difference alright...

[UDP]

Do you think "influencing" describes it better than "force"?

Not sure

Well... It depends on the situation. I have met ESTjs who seem to prefer Fe, especially around peers (this assuming that they are aware of the Fi dual-seeking). I guess it's because they want to impress them or look "cool"

I would say that when i am comfortable with my Fi bond with people, Fe comes very easily.

They are one way when alone, then another person with other people. That's one difference between Fe and Fi. Also, I can only offer speculation since I don't really understand what's going on in their minds; why they choose to do some things rather than others. What I do know, and to what I believe is a high level of accuracy, when something is Fe or Fi based. What it comes down to is consistency and intent. Fe changes with the situation and the people to influence, while Fi does not.

Doesn't that last part contradict what you said at the beginning of the paragraph? "They are one way when alone, then another person with other people."

I would say that I am different with people based on my Fi bond and loyalty to them. If I think someone is just passing by, I am not going to warm up to them easily. If I know someone for a long time, I can joke and have fun much more easily.

[Lobo]

Courage Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:33 am Post subject:

Quote:
They are one way when alone, then another person with other people. That's one difference between Fe and Fi. Also, I can only offer speculation since I don't really understand what's going on in their minds; why they choose to do some things rather than others. What I do know, and to what I believe is a high level of accuracy, when something is Fe or Fi based. What it comes down to is consistency and intent. Fe changes with the situation and the people to influence, while Fi does not.

Doesn't that last part contradict what you said at the beginning of the paragraph? "They are one way when alone, then another person with other people."

I would say that I am different with people based on my Fi bond and loyalty to them. If I think someone is just passing by, I am not going to warm up to them easily. If I know someone for a long time, I can joke and have fun much more easily.

What I meant was that some ESTjs (not all) apply Fe more readily than Fi in varying social situations. That is why they tend to "change" based on the type of people and situation. It's knowing how to treat someone for influencing purposes. To be honest, Fi does prove to be a weakness in situations involving a majority of people who dislike Fi, or don't have an interest to it. I think that in those situations the better choice is Fe: the detached diplomacy.

[munenori2]

I would say that when i am comfortable with my Fi bond with people, Fe comes very easily.

I would say that I am different with people based on my Fi bond and loyalty to them. If I think someone is just passing by, I am not going to warm up to them easily. If I know someone for a long time, I can joke and have fun much more easily.

So would you say that your Fe is directed by your Fi? That might not be the best way to put it. Is it something like Fi represents your inner subjective state and when this is satisfied in some way, Fe comes easily because in this case it isn't an act? I guess what I'm getting at is that Fe (I suppose generalized to the ESTJ type, though I hesitate to do that) comes naturally when it is a reflection of sincere inner feelings. That's probably too vague to really be useful, but what do you think, Courage?

As for the INFJ case, I like the OP's description. It's sort of like I can involve myself in the expression of Fe for a short while. Ultimately though, it's very tiring to do, especially if it doesn't jive with what I'm feeling, and if it were in complete contradiction then it almost certainly can't (or won't, I suppose) happen. Times like those just seem like I'm trying to be someone other than who I really am. Generally though, I can play along because it satisfies the people I care about, even if it doesn't satisfy me quite as much as it does them. That's not to say that I don't actually enjoy myself. I do. It just isn't the same as the deeper, more fulfilling times I have when I get to know someone better, what it is that makes their eyes light up. You know, the kind of things that you can talk about for hours without ever getting tired. I think that's why I never quite enjoyed huge parties. That side almost never seems to come to the fore and, without it, Fe ends up seeming like just empty expression. I'll do it to try to evoke in them genuine and positive feeling (my true goal), but if that's impossible, if all it is trading smiles that go no deeper than the skin, then I know I don't belong or I'm not needed, so I bail. If I can't do that (if I caught a ride, for example), then I usually start slamming shots. I couldn't tell you why, but that helps me show much more Fe (although my self-image suffers for it). I'm also more likely to show my Fi then too, but if it's negative stuff, then I feel an irrepressible urge to get away from everyone I don't know, usually by just taking a walk by myself for ten or fifteen minutes to reflect on whatever is getting at me before heading back.

[UDP]

I guess what I'm getting at is that Fe (I suppose generalized to the ESTJ type, though I hesitate to do that) comes naturally when it is a reflection of sincere inner feelings. That's probably too vague to really be useful, but what do you think, Courage?

Yes, very good. That is it.
I cannot contradict my inner state, and I cannot fake emotions either. My emotional sincerity, perhaps, is too much for some people to bear (because when I am not feeling it, I am just not feeling it at all. But when I do, I feel it all the way...)

It is sort of an extreme take on "honesty", if you will. The good and bad aspects of it.

I do. It just isn't the same as the deeper, more fulfilling times I have when I get to know someone better, what it is that makes their eyes light up. You know, the kind of things that you can talk about for hours without ever getting tired. I think that's why I never quite enjoyed huge parties. That side almost never seems to come to the fore and, without it, Fe ends up seeming like just empty expression. I'll do it to try to evoke in them genuine and positive feeling (my true goal), but if that's impossible, if all it is trading smiles that go no deeper than the skin, then I know I don't belong or I'm not needed, so I bail.

I support you completely - I would be glad to have someone like that as my dual.

[FDG]

UDP, take a look at the first paragraph of Strasevskaya's description of Fe in ESTjs to understand what some people refer to when they speak about ESTjs trying to appear "cool" among their peers by using the aforementioned function. I do not have observed such in all the ESTjs I know, nor I think strats is an authority over every type, but it might be worth mentioning.

[Lobo]

Ok, here is an audiovisual:

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=k76dwQMhpzk[/youtube]

[UDP]

UDP, take a look at the first paragraph of Strasevskaya's description of Fe in ESTjs to understand what some people refer to when they speak about ESTjs trying to appear "cool" among their peers by using the aforementioned function. I do not have observed such in all the ESTjs I know, nor I think strats is an authority over every type, but it might be worth mentioning.

Let's look at the first two...

Extraverted Feeling Block Of superego*e-ya pozitsiya*Normativnaya function * the "ethics of emotions"
In the unfamiliar company he tries to develop the role of such bodryachka, undispairing jovial merry fellow, it jokes, it smiles. He tries to be maximally polite and amiable with all. New familiar patiently it listens, regardless of the fact, it is interesting to it or not, it nods agreement, it agrees, sympathy is expressed. If to it they tell any dusheshchipatel'nuyu history, it reacts in the manner that one should, in his opinion, react in this situation - it can burst into tears, moreover it is sufficiently demonstrative. (and although in the depth of the soul Of shtirlits is actually sentimental, it do not consider it necessary this to hide, at least, in its nearest environment.)

I can see this, yes.

Especially vividly its sentimentality is manifested in the situation of family celebrations or meetings in the friendly to the circle: when they congratulate it, they mention about its merits, manifest to it their respect and honors, face Of shtirlitsa assumes childlishly happy expression and its positive emotions begin to acquire some completely unpredictable forms. Its this state so strongly disturbs, that involuntarily appears its desire somehow slightly to quiet (which magnificently feels and makes its dual Dostoyevsky). It is very vulnerable and defenseless at the moment of this emotional lift Of shtirlits. Usually recollection about experience of idyll it preserves sufficiently for long and even some time it shares by its impressions with those surrounding. (from the side it can even seem that its rastrogannost' is somewhat exaggerated, but do not give god to express distrust to his enthusiastic state and these to spoil to it holiday - it will be more than uyazvlen: its ecstasy immediately will pass into the extreme irritation, since it will immediately feel itself it will very uncomfortably and compulsorily find any method to take vengeance for the damaged mood)

But that aspect of it is also important.

[Christy B]

[quote="Courage"]

Its this state so strongly disturbs, that involuntarily appears its desire somehow slightly to quiet (which magnificently feels and makes its dual Dostoyevsky). It is very vulnerable and defenseless at the moment of this emotional lift Of shtirlits.

Courage? Will you please explain what these sentences mean? I don't understand the translation. . .

[leckysupport]

--ENFp:
Being that it's their 8th function, I find it hard to actually separate the person from the function in this case. I get the impression that the 8th in a way is embedded into the personality in the unconscious level. To be honest, I don't have anything to say about ENFp's and Fe, maybe they could elaborate.

I've just met a IEE (in a working capcity) and she seemed to go from being very friendly and warm and talkative to suddenly absolutely withdrawn and on the face of it a little rude (she never seems to say goodbye, EVER).
I was a little shocked when she first did it and completely confused and then I realised that she is generally like this and that I should just get used to it.

[UDP]

Do you relate to that, deltas?

It's something I'm seeing more and more - and even see it in myself to some extent, but also in delta NFs.

Talking to one NF, it was interesting to see how dealing with "Fe", or what I more specifically mean here, dealing with emotions and niceties and pleasantries and all that stuff - it is ultimately seen as burdensome, or annoying.

That seems to especially be the case when tired or 'fed up', emphasis on Fe just goes out the window. It's almost like an overload, or maximum capacity reached.

I'm torn because I relate to it very much, but at the same time, I feel 'influenced' by certain things, or like I 'ought to care', even if I don't really care. Maybe that is just part of Fe role for me.

[ashlesha]

Do you relate to that, deltas?

It's something I'm seeing more and more - and even see it in myself to some extent, but also in delta NFs.

Talking to one NF, it was interesting to see how dealing with "Fe", or what I more specifically mean here, dealing with emotions and niceties and pleasantries and all that stuff - it is ultimately seen as burdensome, or annoying.

That seems to especially be the case when tired or 'fed up', emphasis on Fe just goes out the window. It's almost like an overload, or maximum capacity reached.

I'm torn because I relate to it very much, but at the same time, I feel 'influenced' by certain things, or like I 'ought to care', even if I don't really care. Maybe that is just part of Fe role for me.

the pleasantries thing is not something i generally put much energy towards to begin with. i do apply social lubrication in daily interaction as much as i feel is expected of me/required for me to skate along, but i dont put much thought into it and i wouldnt call it a drain...though it depends a lot on the environment and the people involved, of course. i think i'm often perceived as a loner or misanthrope by more effusive types because of my lack of attendance to that sort of thing, but frankly that doesnt weigh very heavily on me. i tend to find that sort of judgment kind of easy to dismiss because...well, i guess because i know its incorrect.

maybe its more taxing on Fe role or maybe being SO-last is a major factor in my case. i dont know.

as far as more genuine emotional displays (which is more how i tend to see Fe i think) i'm probably quicker to show emotion when i'm under stress. no idea how that plays into theory, though. i think my default is to maintain a certain control in order to facilitate stability and nonintrusion or something, and this is harder to do as i get more burdened with stressors. no idea if this is normal for my type or what.

[Suz]

Do you relate to that, deltas?

It's something I'm seeing more and more - and even see it in myself to some extent, but also in delta NFs.

Talking to one NF, it was interesting to see how dealing with "Fe", or what I more specifically mean here, dealing with emotions and niceties and pleasantries and all that stuff - it is ultimately seen as burdensome, or annoying.

That seems to especially be the case when tired or 'fed up', emphasis on Fe just goes out the window. It's almost like an overload, or maximum capacity reached.

.

Yes. Highly draining, especially if i dont already have a positive Fi connection with that person (but then it's not pleasantries). And like you said, if i'm tired/stressed/sleep-deprived, ANYONE.

[Lobo]

Yes, I do see it as a burden, but I see it something that applies to Fe valuers as well... Without a specific example I might not be getting at what you mean.

[ashlesha]

Yes, I do see it as a burden, but I see it something that applies to Fe valuers as well... Without a specific example I might not be getting at what you mean.

ya, i don't think anybody is a huge fan of pleasantries if that's what you mean.

my initial post was this boring ramble about semantics and what Fe means, blah, blah, before i just deleted and decided to wing it and try to address his question, lol.

so i agree that an example would be helpful.

[Lobo]

ya, i don't think anybody is a huge fan of pleasantries if that's what you mean.

my initial post was this boring ramble about semantics and what Fe means, blah, blah, before i just deleted and decided to wing it and try to address his question, lol.

so i agree that an example would be helpful.

Ryu's just having a bad day... that's what happens to geeks from time to time. Here is some nice Fe to counteract his sucky mood:

[Marie84]

Yes, constantly. My biggest issues with Fe has been

*Fe valuers presuming motivations that don't exist on my part ("this is what you really meant [to say]" etc)
*Assuming feelings that do or don't exist ("you didn't like this [gift] did you? You don't look pleased", "are you depressed?/What's wrong with you?/What's your problem?" all because I'm not emotionally reacting)
*Some Fe/Ti's tuning me out because I'm dampening the emotional atmosphere (i.e. not smiling and acting positively, possibly pointing out fallacious information stated as factual or pointing out offensiveness, thus means I'm a cold b!tch to them)

I could probably write a longer list but I'm a bit tired atm. I remember when Akra posted here about a trip to Disney World (or land, don't remember) and becoming drained by all the Fe there, which was my exact issue when going there with my own family. All the attempts from staff and such to get me to smile and act "happy happy happy" weighed down on me to such an extent that I was overjoyed to leave; I felt like being me there was ruining something for others (as weird as that may sound) which is one of the reasons I try to avoid gatherings (clubs, parties, etc) where people don't know me and thus might judge me on my lack of reactivity

This is something I can really relate with Fe PoLR's on, that being me not wanting to have to fuel the Fe but at the same time not necessarily wanting to ruin it for others and thus be judged negativity for it.
I'd rather external positivity not be a requirement but a byproduct of how I may, or may not, express those feelings

For example, I tend to negatively react towards anyone trying to intentionally get me to feel a certain way - even if it's actually a loved one who wants me to 'feel happy'. I don't like someone using contrived means to procure an 'emotional result' from me. When people do that it tends to blow up in their face, or they get frustrated, or more agitated.

yeah I could see Te dominants being more openly defiant to having this pushed on them.

[ashlesha]

ya, marie, that list. /empathy

especially the second one. as bizarre as it might sound, opening gifts can be a stressful experience, heh. it sucks when people think you dislike them or dont appreciate things theyve said/done bc of the lack of immediate outward "evidence" of that form. i think the worst part of dealing with Fe is when it messes up Fi. (which is maybe obvious, hence why its in the id, but i hadnt thought of this before.)

[jewels]

ya, it can be annoying. But I fake it pretty well. I just do the minimum required to convincingly Fe fake it.

My mom is ISFp and my sister is an ENFj so I grew up w/ some good examples of how to pretend to like/hate things.

Oh NOOO...oh that is AWFUL (sad face)
SO GOOD to see YOU! yay! (excited face)

Ok, actually, maybe I suck at Fe. But I do the minimum though...

[stray]

I know Fe isn't my style, but I don't think it's PoLR now. If I'm not geniunely into something, I still know what's expected. I'll make a choice, rather than accidentally step on toes. If someone expects me to be really affirming, I'm the person who sort of has an indifferent smile at least. I may not be excited about the same thing myself, but I'll acknowledge their mood. It's just a wild guess, but it seems this might be more typical of INj or ISj.

edit: Well, I was only partly right.

The ESI is aware of the need to keep a "polite façade" in certain social and professional situations, even in the presence of people he personally dislikes, or during periods of negative inner emotions, but he refuses to actively attempt to integrate in, or promote, a positive external emotional atmosphere in such occasions: to the ESI, that would mean crossing the line from politeness into hypocrisy. The ESI's disinclination for doing so increases along with his feelings of closeness with the individuals present.

EIIs can become expressive and very lively in groups for brief periods of time, but they always gravitate to deep, focused communication between two people or a small, close-knit group. They tend to shun wildness and prefer serious, more sensitive communication.
EIIs are usually very straightforward about their feelings in front of others; what you see from them is what you get. Even at a party where everyone is supposed to be happy, they still find it hard to conceal their true feelings when they are in a bad mood. This can create distaste among the rest who feel that the EII is not cooperating by contributing to the positive and boisterous mood. This tends to lead others who don't know the EII well to have a misconception that he/she is a grouchy person by nature.

Being a naturally private person, the LII finds it difficult to believe that others would be interested in what he is thinking or feeling at any given moment. He feels like something is not quite right if his interaction with the people around him is too aloof. However he only rarely makes an effort to venture into more open spheres, because he usually avoids making small talk, preferring to talk about his real interests and say only what he truly believes.

[Marie84]

ya, marie, that list. /empathy

especially the second one. as bizarre as it might sound, opening gifts can be a stressful experience, heh. it sucks when people think you dislike them or dont appreciate things theyve said/done bc of the lack of immediate outward "evidence" of that form.

i think the worst part of dealing with Fe is when it messes up Fi. (which is maybe obvious, hence why its in the id, but i hadnt thought of this before.)

yeah, I think both Fe and Fi valuers have to make sacrifices to get or maintain their Fe/Fi.
It sort of goes back to something Discojoe posted...here I found it http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...7&postcount=61

I see this as applying to Fi and Fe's to a degree as well, that being that Fi's don't want to ruin the atmosphere and thus damage the relationships, and Fe's don't want to damage the relationships by maintaining the preferred atmosphere.
If the Fi ruins the atmosphere/mood they could damage the relationship, if the Fe damages the relationship it can ruin the atmosphere, what's one to do

[Morcheeba]

*Fe valuers presuming motivations that don't exist on my part ("this is what you really meant [to say]" etc)
*Assuming feelings that do or don't exist ("you didn't like this [gift] did you? You don't look pleased", "are you depressed?/What's wrong with you?/What's your problem?" all because I'm not emotionally reacting)
*Some Fe/Ti's tuning me out because I'm dampening the emotional atmosphere (i.e. not smiling and acting positively, possibly pointing out fallacious information stated as factual or pointing out offensiveness, thus means I'm a cold b!tch to them)

FWIW, I know many ESFp's and ENFp's who have asked me these very same questions, and found them to be quite threatening because sometimes if I look depressed it doesn't mean anything, maybe I was just in my "aloof" mode at that time. Maybe these examples you have put up have nothing to do with functions, and more to do with the personality of these people.
Also, this sounds more like someone with and in their ego block, they are more interested in people's emotions in the here and now, ENFj's could give a crap most of the time.

[Suz]

FWIW, I know many ESFp's and ENFp's who have asked me these very same questions, and found them to be quite threatening because sometimes if I look depressed it doesn't mean anything, maybe I was just in my "aloof" mode at that time. Maybe these examples you have put up have nothing to do with functions, and more to do with the personality of these people.
Also, this sounds more like someone with and in their ego block, they are more interested in people's emotions in the here and now, ENFj's could give a crap most of the time.

Therein precisely lies the difference. Fe valuers PRESUME. Fi valuers will sort of be like "well maybe she didn't really mean it, because i know her and she's a good person" and will thus confront and actually ask and clarify. This has been the case frequently ime as well, in particular recently with an alpha i've typed as LII vs myself and an ExFp at work. The LII puts on this fake happy/nice act that is so obviously insincere, the insincerity having been confirmed to me recently by her going around spreading inaccurate rumors about me, probably because she is insecure about her own work. She pulled something like this with the ExFp a couple months ago, and so i had us all sit down to discuss what's been going on. Basically both myself and the ExFp want the LII to be more direct about things that are bothering her. The LII was like "but i didn't want to be rude" and "I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings" . Yeah like spreading rumors about people behind their backs isn't rude and wont be hurtful.

She also has an issue about making wild extrapolations from things people say, like if someone makes a sarcastic joke, she'll sort of presume all sorts of moral implications and spread rumors about that. This is where,at least from the standpoint of myself and the ExFp, we would prefer that, instead of presuming things, she actually clarify those presumptions e.g. "wait, is this what you really meant???" I suspect this is what the ExFp's were doing in your case, Morcheeba. They saw you seemed to look angry or whatever, and they know that you're not that sort of person, or they're not sure if you are or not, so they ask to clarify.

I guess in the Fe culture it's considered bad/threatening/rude to ask about these things? Or Fe-valuing people just dont really pay attention to people's actual essence so asking is a moot point to them?

[golden]

I guess in the Fe culture it's considered bad/threatening/rude to ask about these things? Or Fe-valuing people just dont really pay attention to people's actual essence so asking is a moot point to them?

In fact, I feel extraordinarily uncomfortable with the prospect of having to go into a situation and ask someone really fundamental questions about what they meant when they said X or whatever. From my Fe perspective, if I find I'm playing some sort of guessing game about someone's feelings, motivations, state of mind, then I'm pretty much sunk. Even if they explain it to me, I may still fail to understand. And my sense of it might be, If you were feeling/thinking/intending X at the time, why didn't you just make that clear?

And once I'm in this guessing game, I'll feel doomed b/c I think the same kind of problem (misunderstanding, inability to read the other person) is going to come up again and again.

So my solution with people whose feelings I can't read is to try to keep some distance. Going in for the poke, poke, prod, psychoanalytical clarification of what we all meant and what we all felt is a sort of hell to me.

[thePirate]

Therein precisely lies the difference. Fe valuers PRESUME. Fi valuers will sort of be like "well maybe she didn't really mean it, because i know her and she's a good person" and will thus confront and actually ask and clarify. This has been the case frequently ime as well, in particular recently with an alpha i've typed as LII vs myself and an ExFp at work. The LII puts on this fake happy/nice act that is so obviously insincere, the insincerity having been confirmed to me recently by her going around spreading inaccurate rumors about me, probably because she is insecure about her own work. She pulled something like this with the ExFp a couple months ago, and so i had us all sit down to discuss what's been going on. Basically both myself and the ExFp want the LII to be more direct about things that are bothering her. The LII was like "but i didn't want to be rude" and "I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings" . Yeah like spreading rumors about people behind their backs isn't rude and wont be hurtful.

She also has an issue about making wild extrapolations from things people say, like if someone makes a sarcastic joke, she'll sort of presume all sorts of moral implications and spread rumors about that. This is where,at least from the standpoint of myself and the ExFp, we would prefer that, instead of presuming things, she actually clarify those presumptions e.g. "wait, is this what you really meant???" I suspect this is what the ExFp's were doing in your case, Morcheeba. They saw you seemed to look angry or whatever, and they know that you're not that sort of person, or they're not sure if you are or not, so they ask to clarify.

I guess in the Fe culture it's considered bad/threatening/rude to ask about these things? Or Fe-valuing people just dont really pay attention to people's actual essence so asking is a moot point to them?

None of that is type related, in fact a number of counter examples come to mind where Fi types have exhibited the behavior you just described and Fe types have exhibited behavior you described for Fi.

Also as far as Fe not caring about peoples feelings go, that's a very stupid assumption to make as well as it being inaccurate. It paints Fe valuing types as monsters and misconstrues Fe as it works with Fi; the emotional atmosphere is the collection of the internal feelings of all the group put together - it works hand in hand with Fi, just looked at and managed from a different level.

[Marie84]

FWIW, I know many ESFp's and ENFp's who have asked me these very same questions, and found them to be quite threatening because sometimes if I look depressed it doesn't mean anything, maybe I was just in my "aloof" mode at that time. Maybe these examples you have put up have nothing to do with functions, and more to do with the personality of these people.

Could be. I don't think how I see unvalued IE's will necessarily be how others do, especially those who value them, and likewise. They were just vague examples of how heavy doses of Fe affect me, especially if I'm not in the mood to be receptive to them

Also, this sounds more like someone with and in their ego block, they are more interested in people's emotions in the here and now, ENFj's could give a crap most of the time.

It depends on the Fe, IME. I've known EIE's, particularly one I knew from an charitable organization, who was incredibly demanding in a outwardly passionate way about how the other people there should be applying themselves to her ideologies

[Beautiful sky]

Do you relate to that, deltas?

It's something I'm seeing more and more - and even see it in myself to some extent, but also in delta NFs.

Talking to one NF, it was interesting to see how dealing with "Fe", or what I more specifically mean here, dealing with emotions and niceties and pleasantries and all that stuff - it is ultimately seen as burdensome, or annoying.

That seems to especially be the case when tired or 'fed up', emphasis on Fe just goes out the window. It's almost like an overload, or maximum capacity reached.

I'm torn because I relate to it very much, but at the same time, I feel 'influenced' by certain things, or like I 'ought to care', even if I don't really care. Maybe that is just part of Fe role for me.

I ignore Fe in favor of Fi; this means, when I stand in front of another individual who is suffering, I care more about their emotions and am concerned about what the person is going through then caring about what I have to take care of.

An LSE, other then my cousin, that I know tells me he can feel my feelings coming on and he knows how uncomfortable I am about having to cry, so he doesn't mind rushing to suppress these emotions by kicking me in the shin or putting out the fire by asking me to leave the subject alone.

He knows that I care about others (Fi) and that my external emotions bother me as well as him. He doesn't like his coworker because he's Fe and because he only cares about himself and what he's working on for his own benefit.

I don't see how Fe should bother you? I see how other's Fe should bother you.

LSE are generally easily manipulated, even by Fi creative types, who demonstrate Fe...calling you to care when you shouldn't. I don't know. Maybe you should just care more about realizing the emotions of Fi types.

Unlike Golden (Fe valuer ) I feel like I have to maintain bonds of closeness and come to understand the person NO MATTER WHAT. But, usually it's easy to understand LSE.

So if I understand properly, it's about outward emotional expression and manipulation?

So a ego would feel that they absolutely, positively have to express whatever it is they're feeling in response to any big event, and if, in a group they find that someone's mood doesn't match the rest of they group they take action to modify that person's feelings, possibly even against their will?

From that perspective I can see how that would get really annoying really quickly. In fact, it's kind of difficult to see myself as creative even though I probably am.

So how do you deal with too much ?

Here's a good example of Fe at a party. So my 7 cousins and I went to a birthday-karaoke thing on Saturday. My 4 cousins and my sister are Fe valuers and my dual cousin, other cousin, and I are Fi valuers.

My sister (ESE) went from raising everyone's emotional spirit to party hardy, drink and enjoy, sing and have fun where she tried to include everyone in that motion to bringing up something my father said that effected her own emotions. She took her own personally effected feelings and started repeating the phrase "you don't understand how this makes me feel", crying. Well, all the Fe types started to sympathize with her. The Fi types empathized with her but couldn't extend sympathy because our argument is that the father is who he is and nothing can change him so there's no point for us (Fi) to get emotional and let our feelings be hurt by what dad said. This has been a repeated pattern with my sister and I; what hurts her that has to do with something my father says, which is often along the lines of "you're not going to be good enough in your career" (even though she's a strait A student -he expects her to become a doctor -ethic parents aspirations). She lets odd comments effect her feelings and I brush them off as that person's own problem because I can see how that person can't change their pattern of behavior; my dual cousin and the other see it the same way. We, Fi valuers, do want more love, as the Fe does, but we want it for more superficial reasons, I would say. Fe wants more love where they are affirmed for being what they are good at being extraverts they need to get this from the outside world.


RYU, you mentioned once in an old post that your mother called you a bad name once...this is Fe role and how it manifests in you. Not forgetting what someone does that effects your internal emotions about how you are perceived from the outside (needing affirmation of good words or nice comments from others). For the same reason, being put up on a pedestal is valued by LSE who feel magnanimous from this outside feedback. Fe is bad bad for you because you don't get the affirmation from them that you're an awesome person because they don't care to "boost" you up like that. Fi types do recognize internal qualities of the individual and make them feel good about themselves.