Deltas your views and experiences with Fe

[Marie84]

ya, marie, that list. /empathy

especially the second one. as bizarre as it might sound, opening gifts can be a stressful experience, heh. it sucks when people think you dislike them or dont appreciate things theyve said/done bc of the lack of immediate outward "evidence" of that form.

i think the worst part of dealing with Fe is when it messes up Fi. (which is maybe obvious, hence why its in the id, but i hadnt thought of this before.)

yeah, I think both Fe and Fi valuers have to make sacrifices to get or maintain their Fe/Fi.
It sort of goes back to something Discojoe posted...here I found it http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...7&postcount=61

I see this as applying to Fi and Fe's to a degree as well, that being that Fi's don't want to ruin the atmosphere and thus damage the relationships, and Fe's don't want to damage the relationships by maintaining the preferred atmosphere.
If the Fi ruins the atmosphere/mood they could damage the relationship, if the Fe damages the relationship it can ruin the atmosphere, what's one to do

[Suz]

I know Fe isn't my style, but I don't think it's PoLR now. If I'm not geniunely into something, I still know what's expected. I'll make a choice, rather than accidentally step on toes. If someone expects me to be really affirming, I'm the person who sort of has an indifferent smile at least. I may not be excited about the same thing myself, but I'll acknowledge their mood. It's just a wild guess, but it seems this might be more typical of INj or ISj.

edit: Well, I was only partly right.

The ESI is aware of the need to keep a "polite façade" in certain social and professional situations, even in the presence of people he personally dislikes, or during periods of negative inner emotions, but he refuses to actively attempt to integrate in, or promote, a positive external emotional atmosphere in such occasions: to the ESI, that would mean crossing the line from politeness into hypocrisy. The ESI's disinclination for doing so increases along with his feelings of closeness with the individuals present.

EIIs can become expressive and very lively in groups for brief periods of time, but they always gravitate to deep, focused communication between two people or a small, close-knit group. They tend to shun wildness and prefer serious, more sensitive communication.
EIIs are usually very straightforward about their feelings in front of others; what you see from them is what you get. Even at a party where everyone is supposed to be happy, they still find it hard to conceal their true feelings when they are in a bad mood. This can create distaste among the rest who feel that the EII is not cooperating by contributing to the positive and boisterous mood. This tends to lead others who don't know the EII well to have a misconception that he/she is a grouchy person by nature.

Being a naturally private person, the LII finds it difficult to believe that others would be interested in what he is thinking or feeling at any given moment. He feels like something is not quite right if his interaction with the people around him is too aloof. However he only rarely makes an effort to venture into more open spheres, because he usually avoids making small talk, preferring to talk about his real interests and say only what he truly believes.

Wow... I relate a LOT to the EII description!!

[stray]

Wow... I relate a LOT to the EII description!!

Probably because you identify with your Fi strongly?

[UDP]

where did those descriptions come from?

[stray]

Wikisocion (not sure what the consensus on that site is around here). Look under the Fe heading for various types.

[Morcheeba]

*Fe valuers presuming motivations that don't exist on my part ("this is what you really meant [to say]" etc)
*Assuming feelings that do or don't exist ("you didn't like this [gift] did you? You don't look pleased", "are you depressed?/What's wrong with you?/What's your problem?" all because I'm not emotionally reacting)
*Some Fe/Ti's tuning me out because I'm dampening the emotional atmosphere (i.e. not smiling and acting positively, possibly pointing out fallacious information stated as factual or pointing out offensiveness, thus means I'm a cold b!tch to them)

FWIW, I know many ESFp's and ENFp's who have asked me these very same questions, and found them to be quite threatening because sometimes if I look depressed it doesn't mean anything, maybe I was just in my "aloof" mode at that time. Maybe these examples you have put up have nothing to do with functions, and more to do with the personality of these people.
Also, this sounds more like someone with and in their ego block, they are more interested in people's emotions in the here and now, ENFj's could give a crap most of the time.

[Suz]

FWIW, I know many ESFp's and ENFp's who have asked me these very same questions, and found them to be quite threatening because sometimes if I look depressed it doesn't mean anything, maybe I was just in my "aloof" mode at that time. Maybe these examples you have put up have nothing to do with functions, and more to do with the personality of these people.
Also, this sounds more like someone with and in their ego block, they are more interested in people's emotions in the here and now, ENFj's could give a crap most of the time.

Therein precisely lies the difference. Fe valuers PRESUME. Fi valuers will sort of be like "well maybe she didn't really mean it, because i know her and she's a good person" and will thus confront and actually ask and clarify. This has been the case frequently ime as well, in particular recently with an alpha i've typed as LII vs myself and an ExFp at work. The LII puts on this fake happy/nice act that is so obviously insincere, the insincerity having been confirmed to me recently by her going around spreading inaccurate rumors about me, probably because she is insecure about her own work. She pulled something like this with the ExFp a couple months ago, and so i had us all sit down to discuss what's been going on. Basically both myself and the ExFp want the LII to be more direct about things that are bothering her. The LII was like "but i didn't want to be rude" and "I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings" . Yeah like spreading rumors about people behind their backs isn't rude and wont be hurtful.

She also has an issue about making wild extrapolations from things people say, like if someone makes a sarcastic joke, she'll sort of presume all sorts of moral implications and spread rumors about that. This is where,at least from the standpoint of myself and the ExFp, we would prefer that, instead of presuming things, she actually clarify those presumptions e.g. "wait, is this what you really meant???" I suspect this is what the ExFp's were doing in your case, Morcheeba. They saw you seemed to look angry or whatever, and they know that you're not that sort of person, or they're not sure if you are or not, so they ask to clarify.

I guess in the Fe culture it's considered bad/threatening/rude to ask about these things? Or Fe-valuing people just dont really pay attention to people's actual essence so asking is a moot point to them?

[Suz]

Probably because you identify with your Fi strongly?

I do, actually.

[golden]

I guess in the Fe culture it's considered bad/threatening/rude to ask about these things? Or Fe-valuing people just dont really pay attention to people's actual essence so asking is a moot point to them?

In fact, I feel extraordinarily uncomfortable with the prospect of having to go into a situation and ask someone really fundamental questions about what they meant when they said X or whatever. From my Fe perspective, if I find I'm playing some sort of guessing game about someone's feelings, motivations, state of mind, then I'm pretty much sunk. Even if they explain it to me, I may still fail to understand. And my sense of it might be, If you were feeling/thinking/intending X at the time, why didn't you just make that clear?

And once I'm in this guessing game, I'll feel doomed b/c I think the same kind of problem (misunderstanding, inability to read the other person) is going to come up again and again.

So my solution with people whose feelings I can't read is to try to keep some distance. Going in for the poke, poke, prod, psychoanalytical clarification of what we all meant and what we all felt is a sort of hell to me.

[Beautiful sky]

Do you relate to that, deltas?

It's something I'm seeing more and more - and even see it in myself to some extent, but also in delta NFs.

Talking to one NF, it was interesting to see how dealing with "Fe", or what I more specifically mean here, dealing with emotions and niceties and pleasantries and all that stuff - it is ultimately seen as burdensome, or annoying.

That seems to especially be the case when tired or 'fed up', emphasis on Fe just goes out the window. It's almost like an overload, or maximum capacity reached.

I'm torn because I relate to it very much, but at the same time, I feel 'influenced' by certain things, or like I 'ought to care', even if I don't really care. Maybe that is just part of Fe role for me.

I ignore Fe in favor of Fi; this means, when I stand in front of another individual who is suffering, I care more about their emotions and am concerned about what the person is going through then caring about what I have to take care of.

An LSE, other then my cousin, that I know tells me he can feel my feelings coming on and he knows how uncomfortable I am about having to cry, so he doesn't mind rushing to suppress these emotions by kicking me in the shin or putting out the fire by asking me to leave the subject alone.

He knows that I care about others (Fi) and that my external emotions bother me as well as him. He doesn't like his coworker because he's Fe and because he only cares about himself and what he's working on for his own benefit.

I don't see how Fe should bother you? I see how other's Fe should bother you.

LSE are generally easily manipulated, even by Fi creative types, who demonstrate Fe...calling you to care when you shouldn't. I don't know. Maybe you should just care more about realizing the emotions of Fi types.

Unlike Golden (Fe valuer ) I feel like I have to maintain bonds of closeness and come to understand the person NO MATTER WHAT. But, usually it's easy to understand LSE.

So if I understand properly, it's about outward emotional expression and manipulation?

So a ego would feel that they absolutely, positively have to express whatever it is they're feeling in response to any big event, and if, in a group they find that someone's mood doesn't match the rest of they group they take action to modify that person's feelings, possibly even against their will?

From that perspective I can see how that would get really annoying really quickly. In fact, it's kind of difficult to see myself as creative even though I probably am.

So how do you deal with too much ?

Here's a good example of Fe at a party. So my 7 cousins and I went to a birthday-karaoke thing on Saturday. My 4 cousins and my sister are Fe valuers and my dual cousin, other cousin, and I are Fi valuers.

My sister (ESE) went from raising everyone's emotional spirit to party hardy, drink and enjoy, sing and have fun where she tried to include everyone in that motion to bringing up something my father said that effected her own emotions. She took her own personally effected feelings and started repeating the phrase "you don't understand how this makes me feel", crying. Well, all the Fe types started to sympathize with her. The Fi types empathized with her but couldn't extend sympathy because our argument is that the father is who he is and nothing can change him so there's no point for us (Fi) to get emotional and let our feelings be hurt by what dad said. This has been a repeated pattern with my sister and I; what hurts her that has to do with something my father says, which is often along the lines of "you're not going to be good enough in your career" (even though she's a strait A student -he expects her to become a doctor -ethic parents aspirations). She lets odd comments effect her feelings and I brush them off as that person's own problem because I can see how that person can't change their pattern of behavior; my dual cousin and the other see it the same way. We, Fi valuers, do want more love, as the Fe does, but we want it for more superficial reasons, I would say. Fe wants more love where they are affirmed for being what they are good at being extraverts they need to get this from the outside world.


RYU, you mentioned once in an old post that your mother called you a bad name once...this is Fe role and how it manifests in you. Not forgetting what someone does that effects your internal emotions about how you are perceived from the outside (needing affirmation of good words or nice comments from others). For the same reason, being put up on a pedestal is valued by LSE who feel magnanimous from this outside feedback. Fe is bad bad for you because you don't get the affirmation from them that you're an awesome person because they don't care to "boost" you up like that. Fi types do recognize internal qualities of the individual and make them feel good about themselves.

[Marie84]

FWIW, I know many ESFp's and ENFp's who have asked me these very same questions, and found them to be quite threatening because sometimes if I look depressed it doesn't mean anything, maybe I was just in my "aloof" mode at that time. Maybe these examples you have put up have nothing to do with functions, and more to do with the personality of these people.

Could be. I don't think how I see unvalued IE's will necessarily be how others do, especially those who value them, and likewise. They were just vague examples of how heavy doses of Fe affect me, especially if I'm not in the mood to be receptive to them

Also, this sounds more like someone with and in their ego block, they are more interested in people's emotions in the here and now, ENFj's could give a crap most of the time.

It depends on the Fe, IME. I've known EIE's, particularly one I knew from an charitable organization, who was incredibly demanding in a outwardly passionate way about how the other people there should be applying themselves to her ideologies

[UDP]

I ignore Fe in favor of Fi; this means, when I stand in front of another individual who is suffering, I care more about their emotions and am concerned about what the person is going through then caring about what I have to take care of.

An LSE, other then my cousin, that I know tells me he can feel my feelings coming on and he knows how uncomfortable I am about having to cry, so he doesn't mind rushing to suppress these emotions by kicking me in the shin or putting out the fire by asking me to leave the subject alone.

Do you think a playful slap to the face would have the same affect?

[golden]

I ignore Fe in favor of Fi; this means, when I stand in front of another individual who is suffering, I care more about their emotions and am concerned about what the person is going through then caring about what I have to take care of.

An LSE, other then my cousin, that I know tells me he can feel my feelings coming on and he knows how uncomfortable I am about having to cry, so he doesn't mind rushing to suppress these emotions by kicking me in the shin or putting out the fire by asking me to leave the subject alone.

He knows that I care about others (Fi) and that my external emotions bother me as well as him. He doesn't like his coworker because he's Fe and because he only cares about himself and what he's working on for his own benefit.

I don't see how Fe should bother you? I see how other's Fe should bother you.

LSE are generally easily manipulated, even by Fi creative types, who demonstrate Fe...calling you to care when you shouldn't. I don't know. Maybe you should just care more about realizing the emotions of Fi types.

Unlike Golden (Fe valuer ) I feel like I have to maintain bonds of closeness and come to understand the person NO MATTER WHAT. But, usually it's easy to understand LSE.



Here's a good example of Fe at a party. So my 7 cousins and I went to a birthday-karaoke thing on Saturday. My 4 cousins and my sister are Fe valuers and my dual cousin, other cousin, and I are Fi valuers.

My sister (ESE) went from raising everyone's emotional spirit to party hardy, drink and enjoy, sing and have fun where she tried to include everyone in that motion to bringing up something my father said that effected her own emotions. She took her own personally effected feelings and started repeating the phrase "you don't understand how this makes me feel", crying. Well, all the Fe types started to sympathize with her. The Fi types empathized with her but couldn't extend sympathy because our argument is that the father is who he is and nothing can change him so there's no point for us (Fi) to get emotional and let our feelings be hurt by what dad said. This has been a repeated pattern with my sister and I; what hurts her that has to do with something my father says, which is often along the lines of "you're not going to be good enough in your career" (even though she's a strait A student -he expects her to become a doctor -ethic parents aspirations). She lets odd comments effect her feelings and I brush them off as that person's own problem because I can see how that person can't change their pattern of behavior; my dual cousin and the other see it the same way. We, Fi valuers, do want more love, as the Fe does, but we want it for more superficial reasons, I would say. Fe wants more love where they are affirmed for being what they are good at being extraverts they need to get this from the outside world.


RYU, you mentioned once in an old post that your mother called you a bad name once...this is Fe role and how it manifests in you. Not forgetting what someone does that effects your internal emotions about how you are perceived from the outside (needing affirmation of good words or nice comments from others). For the same reason, being put up on a pedestal is valued by LSE who feel magnanimous from this outside feedback. Fe is bad bad for you because you don't get the affirmation from them that you're an awesome person because they don't care to "boost" you up like that. Fi types do recognize internal qualities of the individual and make them feel good about themselves.

Do you really think that Fe-valuers do not care about others or recognize their internal qualities (as opposed to shifting emotional states) or maintain bonds with them? That because someone values Fe they are not touched by the suffering of others? This is not my experience in the least.

We have at least three pretty recent threads in this forum on Fe versus Fi, and as I said in them, Fe-valuers accuse Fi-valuers of the same things, each seeing the other type as shallow, not forming bonds, fake, not caring. Fi people think Fe people don't "get it," and vice versa, apparently.

I do agree with some of what you wrote about LSE. They certainly do seem to need to be propped up and boosted and encouraged, and I certainly cannot do that for them. But as I was saying, it's not because I don't recognize LSE's internal qualities. I feel like I know what LSE needs but simply cannot give it in a way that seems right to them and that leaves me feeling good, too. It's maddening beyond belief.

Or if by internal qualities you mean not qualities but shifting emotional states, then yeah, it's harder for me as an Fe-valuer to read the LSE and other Fi-valuers. But I'm not entirely awful with Fi; I just find using it to problem-solve, and to show love on a daily basis, exhausting since Fe is easy for me.

[Suz]

I ignore Fe in favor of Fi; this means, when I stand in front of another individual who is suffering, I care more about their emotions and am concerned about what the person is going through then caring about what I have to take care of.

This is not ignoring Fe in favor of Fi.

Fe is being concerned about their emotions because they are ruining the emotional atmosphere. Fe is about the need to comfort them so that everyone can be happy again.

Fi is being concerned about their emotions reflecting something about a relationship (either with oneself or between others) and the need to comfort them because you are friends.

Being concerned about physical suffering is Si-value.

Te is about finding out why they are upset and what you need to take care of.

Si is actually taking care of those things.


At least that's how i understand it.

[Beautiful sky]

Do you really think that Fe-valuers do not care about others or recognize their internal qualities (as opposed to shifting emotional states) or maintain bonds with them? That because someone values Fe they are not touched by the suffering of others? This is not my experience in the least.

We have at least three pretty recent threads in this forum on Fe versus Fi, and as I said in them, Fe-valuers accuse Fi-valuers of the same things, each seeing the other type as shallow, not forming bonds, fake, not caring. Fi people think Fe people don't "get it," and vice versa, apparently.

I do agree with some of what you wrote about LSE. They certainly do seem to need to be propped up and boosted and encouraged, and I certainly cannot do that for them. But as I was saying, it's not because I don't recognize LSE's internal qualities. I feel like I know what LSE needs but simply cannot give it in a way that seems right to them and that leaves me feeling good, too. It's maddening beyond belief.

Or if by internal qualities you mean not qualities but shifting emotional states, then yeah, it's harder for me as an Fe-valuer to read the LSE and other Fi-valuers. But I'm not entirely awful with Fi; I just find using it to problem-solve, and to show love on a daily basis, exhausting since Fe is easy for me.

I think Fe leading types care more about their own personal issues then the internal qualities of other individuals or the internal feelings of others; again I'm just speaking from leading not creative function. Sometimes Fi creatives can demonstrate Fe too by talking a lot about their own personal concerns. Sympathy is all that Fe leading feel and they don't dramatize it like Fi do; they may share a tear or two, but they don't generalize it like I do. I would probably feel empathy. These are two different things.

Take for instance, when watching a TV program on a population of people suffering....

FiNe would feel for the individuals in an active way...Fi demonstrative demonstrates the same but from more of a spiritual quality then I do. FiNe, even when inactive about the situation, as in is not taking direct action in helping, might be suffering emotionally because they feel that empathy.

SeFi types might be so in the moment of what they are currently doing that these empathy feelings might succumb to Se....they might only speak about the empathy briefly.

FeSi might think of sympathizing with the plight of these individuals only when the individuals are not apart of some socialy adapted role they have taken up. For example, I know great many Fe types who don't care about poor people in third world countries because they see these people as a collective of a society of people they don't want around, for whatever reason that might be.

[Beautiful sky]

This is not ignoring Fe in favor of Fi.

Fe is being concerned about their emotions because they are ruining the emotional atmosphere. Fe is about the need to comfort them so that everyone can be happy again.

Yeah, their own emotions are not the emotions of the atmosphere...I don't want to use Ti with you in compare and contrast, just isn't going to work. Yes, Fe types do provide comfort, so do Fi types.. Fi can be just as comforting of people they are relations with as those they are not as long as they, on an individual level, feel, from their cultural upbringing, the worthiness of the individual to their level of attention.

Fi is being concerned about their emotions reflecting something about a relationship (either with oneself or between others) and the need to comfort them because you are friends.

Fi means internal emotions; the internalization of outside matters in relevance to the person's own personal and subjective feelings ; Fe is in relation to the external objective bond to the person.

Being concerned about physical suffering is Si-value.

no. because I, through empathy, am very concerned about the physical suffering of my mom, but not in such a way that I say that she should take care of her own body (Fe); I say "mom" I'm trying to help you (rationality of Fi) to get you to do the right thing (Te valuing).

Te is about finding out why they are upset and what you need to take care of.

Let me give an example of what I would do and what this ESE person does. We go to see a cancer patient and I can't wait to leave because the person's illness and their apparent (to me) suffering, sadness, and loss of hope is draining me. An ESE stood there and said something in the effect of what was happening to them and started crying expecting others to bend to his emotional atmosphere...nevermind the person who is sick...right.

Si types are just as unwilling to take care of people as any other type. Si is not taking care of others; Si is about properly feeling external sensations for subjective person..hence Sensory in the introvertion.

[Suz]

no. because I, through empathy, am very concerned about the physical suffering of my mom, but not in such a way that I say that she should take care of her own body (Fe); I say "mom" I'm trying to help you (rationality of Fi) to get you to do the right thing (Te valuing).

Let me give an example of what I would do and what this ESE person does. We go to see a cancer patient and I can't wait to leave because the person's illness and their apparent (to me) suffering, sadness, and loss of hope is draining me. An ESE stood there and said something in the effect of what was happening to them and started crying expecting others to bend to his emotional atmosphere...nevermind the person who is sick...right.

Si types are just as unwilling to take care of people as any other type. Si is not taking care of others; Si is about properly feeling external sensations for subjective person..hence Sensory in the introvertion.

Ok maritsa, i do see your point here, and i agree with you. I also feel the same way you described re: yourself around cancer patients which is why i couldn't imagine going into oncology even though I find the subject material interesting. Well even learning about it brings me the same feeling because I keep thinking about how much the patients must be suffering through all that horror.

As for the ESE reaction, i think the ESE also feels empathy but in a different way. The ESE's crying isn't done for selfish reasons, it's just the way Fe-doms deal with such situations.

[Suz]

If I was trying to teach you something I wouldn't write one word in a post.

I express disagreement at times. If I want to get more into it I will, but probably not at the moment.

Well just disagreement without substantiation isn't going to fly with me. If you can't get into it at the moment, dont post anything.

[ashlesha]

i get so confused when people contrast Fe and Fi especially in terms of outward expression. like saying "Fe valuers only care about the atmosphere, not feelings" i think is obviously not true. and then when it comes to which element is more highly correlated with empathy...i don't see that as being the right context to look at either of them. i don't think i have anything constructive to add to this thread, lol. just saying BLAH. you're welcome.

[UDP]

Well just disagreement without substantiation isn't going to fly with me. If you can't get into it at the moment, dont post anything.

no

[Suz]

Well just disagreement without substantiation isn't going to fly with me. If you can't get into it at the moment, dont post anything.

no

Ryu u are such a baby.

[Beautiful sky]

= funnn

For the most part

It is a function that takes outside experience for objective feelings while Fi types outside experience for subjective internal reflection of the situation. Fi's can be just as unsympathetic as Fe, the difference is that Fe will see the crowd's reaction to the situation and empathize - which isn't really empathy, it's really sympathy, and Fi types (each one to it's own feelings) will react to their cultural/family/raised feelings.

I may not want to punish someone for being mean because I haven't been taught that that's ok, while other Fi types might not care and just react with emotional distance. Fe types, with regard to this example, may actually react to their social teachings. For example, in the American culture, it might be ok to disrupt the emotional environment because that's what happens objectively (as viewed by everyone around) and the Armenian Fe types might react to their socially raised norms and mores.

The above reasons are why Jung observed that ExFj types (all Fe leadings) have such a hard time adapting to societies (in the cultural sense) that they do and that is because they were born to a culture that had specific objective, observable value to them emotionally and which they have a hard time abandoning. My ESE cousin is attracted to many non-Armenian men, but when it comes to being serious, she has a very emotional time because our culture/society as well as her mom (being the only parent) has raised her with the notion that she's Armenian (an objective fact) and because she is such she must only marry an Armenian. Breaking these rules are very difficult for extraverts.

I think Fe becomes a burden with LSE because when it comes down to making a decision of marriage, they would prefer to do things along their own social guidelines...that's where those emotions come from. Either they would choose to fallow norms, mores or they should hand their decision to introverted feeler.

[UDP]

I think Fe becomes a burden with LSE because when it comes down to making a decision of marriage, they would prefer to do things along their own social guidelines...that's where those emotions come from. Either they would choose to fallow norms, mores or they should hand their decision to introverted feeler.

This is why I don't identify with "SJ" temperment in MBTI and such. I don't feel bound by my culture. I feel bound by ignorance and not always having as much creativity as Ne types... but not by 'having to do this because it's culturally acceptable"; "pillar of society".

[Morcheeba]

Omggg memes are so

What in gods name is a meme?

[Exodus]

What in gods name is a meme?

It's a joke/stock phrase that circulates on the internet. So yes, .

Here is a good explanation of what a meme is.

[Morcheeba]

It's a joke/stock phrase that circulates on the internet. So yes, .

Here is a good explanation of what a meme is.

So what you're saying is Rick Astley's rico suave dance moves is related?

[Exodus]

So what you're saying is Rick Astley's rico suave dance moves is related?

Insofar as it is amusing, yes.

[ashlesha]

i ignore amusement.

[Exodus]

i ignore amusement.

Perhaps then it's not a coincidence that Rick Astley is EII?

[thePirate]

Therein precisely lies the difference. Fe valuers PRESUME. Fi valuers will sort of be like "well maybe she didn't really mean it, because i know her and she's a good person" and will thus confront and actually ask and clarify. This has been the case frequently ime as well, in particular recently with an alpha i've typed as LII vs myself and an ExFp at work. The LII puts on this fake happy/nice act that is so obviously insincere, the insincerity having been confirmed to me recently by her going around spreading inaccurate rumors about me, probably because she is insecure about her own work. She pulled something like this with the ExFp a couple months ago, and so i had us all sit down to discuss what's been going on. Basically both myself and the ExFp want the LII to be more direct about things that are bothering her. The LII was like "but i didn't want to be rude" and "I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings" . Yeah like spreading rumors about people behind their backs isn't rude and wont be hurtful.

She also has an issue about making wild extrapolations from things people say, like if someone makes a sarcastic joke, she'll sort of presume all sorts of moral implications and spread rumors about that. This is where,at least from the standpoint of myself and the ExFp, we would prefer that, instead of presuming things, she actually clarify those presumptions e.g. "wait, is this what you really meant???" I suspect this is what the ExFp's were doing in your case, Morcheeba. They saw you seemed to look angry or whatever, and they know that you're not that sort of person, or they're not sure if you are or not, so they ask to clarify.

I guess in the Fe culture it's considered bad/threatening/rude to ask about these things? Or Fe-valuing people just dont really pay attention to people's actual essence so asking is a moot point to them?

None of that is type related, in fact a number of counter examples come to mind where Fi types have exhibited the behavior you just described and Fe types have exhibited behavior you described for Fi.

Also as far as Fe not caring about peoples feelings go, that's a very stupid assumption to make as well as it being inaccurate. It paints Fe valuing types as monsters and misconstrues Fe as it works with Fi; the emotional atmosphere is the collection of the internal feelings of all the group put together - it works hand in hand with Fi, just looked at and managed from a different level.

[Marie84]

None of that is type related, in fact a number of counter examples come to mind where Fi types have exhibited the behavior you just described and Fe types have exhibited behavior you described for Fi.

Also as far as Fe not caring about peoples feelings go, that's a very stupid assumption to make as well as it being inaccurate. It paints Fe valuing types as monsters and misconstrues Fe as it works with Fi; the emotional atmosphere is the collection of the internal feelings of all the group put together - it works hand in hand with Fi, just looked at and managed from a different level.

Agreed
btw welcome back Pirate

[Park]

Those of you who self-type as Deltas, how do you perceive and experience ? How do you relate to it?

[InkStrider]

Those of you who self-type as Deltas, how do you perceive and experience ? How do you relate to it?

A repost from my response to Ann's blog on Fe due to relevance.

For Fe, it's akin to trying to drive while blind. They need some kind of feedback, and the more 'stodgy' you are, the less feedback they get. You are, in essence, and without intent....withholding what they consider to be important information.

I do not at all see why such feedback is of any importance. After all, I can live without it.

But do you understand that while it might be a chore to you, it's natural for others?

Do you understand why Fe types might get aggravated when you (to them) "suppress" your 'spontaneous' body language expressions? Why they might see you as being uptight, or hiding something? (I'm not at all suggesting that you are those things.)

Now that you've pointed it out, I can. I recall a conflict I once had with a Beta NF, which I do not at all understand during that time, but I see the source of his suspiciousness now. And why he endlessly poked at me from different angles with increasing intensity just to see how I would react. Except that I kept my cool and never did. An EIE-Ni once remarked that I wasn't sufficiently responsive that he wasn't able to 'read' me. Which I found amusing because there really isn't anything to read at all. I don't hide emotions/intentions that need to be dug out, which they seem to assume by default.

I feel that Beta Fe valuers have the strong tendency of attributing quick motivations to my words/actions for instance, (which can either be drastically wrong or surprisingly accurate), whereas Alpha Fe is more of a bubbly burst of expression which emanates rather than penetrates.

I'm not one to care too much for the expression of emotion nor what emotion I put forth though I do force myself to pay attention to that in order to prevent misunderstandings. With people I am comfortable with, I tend to feel free to make do with minimum body language and enjoy the feeling of them being able to "catch" me regardless. Beta Fe types tend to assume too much by way of motivation, which can be terribly off if they hardly know me.

Fe feels like the forced expression of emotions at every point, even the minor ones which I feel are unimportant and unworthy of expression. Which is why it feels like an exaggeration to me, making issues bigger than they really are and blowing things out of proportion. When I do express, what I do express are serious and real. When Fe types do it, I cannot trust that what they feel is really as strong as what they purport to feel in their expression. When Fi types express pain, I just know that the pain they feel is real and I take it in seriousness, even if spoken in an undertone because such is rarely expressed. When Fe types do it, I tend to have the nagging feeling that it's just another drama and might dismiss their emotional appeals like how we treat the boy who cried wolf one too many times.

[Beautiful sky]

A repost from my response to Ann's blog on Fe due to relevance.






I'm not one to care too much for the expression of emotion nor what emotion I put forth though I do force myself to pay attention to that in order to prevent misunderstandings. With people I am comfortable with, I tend to feel free to make do with minimum body language and enjoy the feeling of them being able to "catch" me regardless. Beta Fe types tend to assume too much by way of motivation, which can be terribly off if they hardly know me.

Fe feels like the forced expression of emotions at every point, even the minor ones which I feel are unimportant and unworthy of expression. Which is why it feels like an exaggeration to me, making issues bigger than they really are and blowing things out of proportion. When I do express, what I do express are serious and real. When Fe types do it, I cannot trust that what they feel is really as strong as what they purport to feel in their expression. When Fi types express pain, I just know that the pain they feel is real and I take it in seriousness, even if spoken in an undertone because such is rarely expressed. When Fe types do it, I tend to have the nagging feeling that it's just another drama and might dismiss their emotional appeals like how we treat the boy who cried wolf one too many times.

Fe types tend to either probe me for my intentions/motivations when my own pain is something that I try hard to conceal, but to them it's the only thing that matters, to feel and express those feelings, that frustrates me. I find their expression of hysteria rather annoying, uncontrollable and hard to calm down.

I want to just tell them the dry details, in facts kind of mode, but they would rather me express these facts through my own personal emotional expression of them, another words, how they relate to me and how I feel or fit into the picture, which is something I don't want to do. I just want them to help me solve a problem with Te, logic, the facts, not Fe.

My sensitive emotions get hurt when they try to seize up my emotional motives instead of solving my problems and I lose it and cry in frustration of having gotten no where with them.

[anndelise]

And THIS is why we need the dislike button, hkkmr.

@Maritsa, Fi types also tend to probe to find out what a person's intentions/motivations are.
Fi types also tend to suggest that a person vent those emotions a bit, it helps release stress and helps clear the mind.
You yourself have started posts to get people to talk about their feelings and let it all hang out.
Don't blame it all on Fe types, it's not like Fi types are innocent of your accusations.

So let's look at this picture, You're in pain. Your Fe person sees that you are in pain. They want to help you. You try to hide it from them. They're trying to let you know that you don't need to hide it from them, they can already see that you are in pain. You deny it...you lie to them. So then they get caught in a headspin...Why would you lie to them? Did they do something wrong? What can they do to help you? You respond with...nothing, leave me alone, and continue to hide your emotions. You're not making any sense, maritsa. They know you are in pain. You deny it. They see the conflict and want to help ease it, but you give them nothing NOTHING for them to figure out what they can do. And then...you blame it on them for not sufficiently reading your mind, for not sufficiently reading your mixed signals, for not magically knowing what kind of facts you could use, nor how to help you solve your problem. It's called communication, maritsa. It takes two people. If you want them to help you solve your problem, you have to provide them with some info about the problem.

And as for the comment of "I find their expression of hysteria rather annoying, uncontrollable and hard to calm down."
Hysteria, by it's very definition is excessive and uncontrollable emotion. So dur...it'll be annoying, it'll be uncontrollable, and it will be hard to calm down from it. Regardless of what type the person is!!
Hysteria is NOT Fe.
Fe is NOT hysteria.

[anndelise]

Parkster,
I don't consciously tend to pay attention to Fe, but a fairly big part of me is aware of it. (it's supposedly 4d for Fi creatives) When I do try to consciously pay attention to it, and what it means and leads to...I get lost. So it's better for me to just let that part of my mind get it's info, so I can focus on the parts that I do.

When I'm with a friend, and they start to talk loud, or be expansive in their gestures, then I start becoming aware that it might be intruding on other people's enjoyment at their own tables, or in their own activities. Sometimes I will lift my hand to about chest height and lower it...as a signal to lower their voice, or tone it down some. This usually angers them. Now I know why.

My NiFe brother and NiFe friends have gotten irritated that I'm a bit hard to read. They can't tell by my body language if I'm understanding them, if I'm following their words/thoughts, if I agree or disagree, etc. So they change tactics...to see if that sets off a signal from me. It usually doesn't. So they try again. By this time, they are talking really fast, are stressing out, and getting frustrated. I swear to god I don't do it on purpose.

However, they'll still want to be around me, because in moments when I'm not stressed, or we're not trying to communicate..just enjoying each other's company, then I'm fairly expressive. I wind up dragging them into a variety of situations that stimulates them, gets them active, gets them playing a role or acting out a scene. Like when my NiFe brother and I were walking downtown and passed a furniture shop. There's a type of chair that I've dreamed of owning. So I backed up and went into there. The sales lady assumed we were husband/wife, or soon to be. So I played along with it. And he played along with it. And as she asked questions about ourselves, we made stuff up. My brother has said a couple of times that he misses those times, he misses seeing me like that. I've become so serious since having a kid.

And my daughter? Well, I'm more childish acting than she is. We play around, and my emotions show freely.
But then something will happen, and I suddenly become serious. Get the issue taken care of, and then play again.

I don't expect someone else to read me. I rarely even think about that. In fact, I only think about it when I'm on a socionics forum.

However, I also feel like I'm being patronized when I meet someone who does the expansive hand gestures and expansive facial gestures. Like one of my daughter's previous school principles. That woman irritated me. If I felt like smiling I'd smile. lol, She worked with grade school kids, so I could see how they might respond positively to her...the Fe and Fi types at least. But as an adult, I just looked at her, waiting for her to get to the point. Which would cause her to faulter, and stumble over words. So I'd wait a little longer hoping she'd get to the point. I didn't know about socionics' elements back then. I'm not sure what I would have changed even if I had known.

[pianosinger]

As an Fe-Demonstrative, I am supposed to have a natural knack for Fe, and I do believe this is the case. I easily pick up on others' emotions, though I'm not the type to try and purpsoefully manipulate the emotional environment. If I don't like the emotional atmosphere of a situation, I'm more likely to simply withdraw than I am to engage and try to make everyone feel better. I really have to care about you a lot, and believe that you're being absolutely sincere, before I will put myself out there like that. Especially when the experience causing the emotion is not something I've ever been through personally (I will extend comfort to a mother grieving over a miscarriage much more readily than a wife grieving over a loss of a husband-- I've experienced the first, but not the second).

I enjoy performing and acting, and this too comes naturally-- to a point. But it's taken me a long time to get anywhere near comfortable with the idea of taking on an emotional role and "letting it all hang out" in front of other people. In my mind, I know exactly what to do on a stage, but when it comes to actually doing it, inhibition gets in the way and I have to fight it in order to be a good actress.

I'm like this in real life, too. When I was a teen, I never cried, screamed, danced (aside from social couple dancing), or otherwise "let loose" in front of anyone, even my family. If I needed a "good cry," I would always retreat to my room, and not come out until I was reasonably assured that my eyes weren't too moist or puffy anymore. As an adult, I've become much more open about my emotions, and more comfortable with physical expression, too. I'd like to say this is mostly a good thing, but sometimes I wonder...Am I turning into one of those overly-emotional and excitable people who can't seem to help but scream and jump up and down flapping thier hands at the slightest excitement? Heaven help me, I hope not, because that really annoys me

When I get really stressed, is the one time I tend to lose control over Fe. At these times, Fe has a mind of its own and I am always embarrassed with myself after the episode is over. And I apologize to people, and resolve to be more in control next time and all that. I have to say it's a struggling battle, but maybe I'm making a little progress just by acknowledging it.

[Beautiful sky]

And THIS is why we need the dislike button, hkkmr.

@Maritsa, Fi types also tend to probe to find out what a person's intentions/motivations are.
Fi types also tend to suggest that a person vent those emotions a bit, it helps release stress and helps clear the mind.
You yourself have started posts to get people to talk about their feelings and let it all hang out.
Don't blame it all on Fe types, it's not like Fi types are innocent of your accusations.

So let's look at this picture, You're in pain. Your Fe person sees that you are in pain. They want to help you. You try to hide it from them. They're trying to let you know that you don't need to hide it from them, they can already see that you are in pain. You deny it...you lie to them. So then they get caught in a headspin...Why would you lie to them? Did they do something wrong? What can they do to help you? You respond with...nothing, leave me alone, and continue to hide your emotions. You're not making any sense, maritsa. They know you are in pain. You deny it. They see the conflict and want to help ease it, but you give them nothing NOTHING for them to figure out what they can do. And then...you blame it on them for not sufficiently reading your mind, for not sufficiently reading your mixed signals, for not magically knowing what kind of facts you could use, nor how to help you solve your problem. It's called communication, maritsa. It takes two people. If you want them to help you solve your problem, you have to provide them with some info about the problem.

And as for the comment of "I find their expression of hysteria rather annoying, uncontrollable and hard to calm down."
Hysteria, by it's very definition is excessive and uncontrollable emotion. So dur...it'll be annoying, it'll be uncontrollable, and it will be hard to calm down from it. Regardless of what type the person is!!
Hysteria is NOT Fe.
Fe is NOT hysteria.

I do believe that Fi types want their emotions read so that we don't have to say how we feel but I don't do what Fe does, which is emotional interpretation of objective events. When they emotionally express these events, it leads them to want me to see things their way. Since I naturally ignore Fe, it becomes hard for me to see it their way and want my own way to be understood by them, which they ignore and that leads us to have a superficial relationship. To Fe it's "go through these emotions, feel them, let yourself feel them" to me, it's why? they don't serve any purpose and certainly don't help to solve any of my problems. I need a solution not a feeling.

I probe for people's intentions or motivations ONLY when there's a clear objective in mind, as in I'm trying to apply it to other situations where I can use the results to benefit other means. I don't do it just for the kicks, although I'm sure that Fe types don't do that for the kicks either, but somehow, it's more of their standard thing to do.


I don't deny that I'm in pain. That's what Fe people get it wrong. I am not in denial. I am in opposition of showing it externally. I am in agreement with suppression of Fe, or ignoring of it. It hurts me more to show that I'm in pain then to deal with it in my internal world and be at peace with it than to show it and share it with an Fe person. That is how my psyche works.

According to Jung, and my own observation of Fe base types, hysteria is a very common characteristic reaction of the person; I have often been caught in the middle of several one of both my sister's and cousin's hysterical reactions; to them, these are emotions that have the right to breath life and exist and take their own course of action, but our opposition is that to me, these emotions should be calmed.

[anndelise]

these emotions should be calmed.

so basically...you want to control or dictate which emotions they are allowed to express, and which they should supress?

Isn't that often what Fe types get accused of?
'Smile, you'll feel better...and so will the rest of us.'

How is that so different from what you're suggesting?
'Hide your pain...and any other negative emotions...else I'll feel a need to control it or calm it down.'

[Beautiful sky]

so basically...you want to control or dictate which emotions they are allowed to express, and which they should supress?

Isn't that often what Fe types get accused of?
'Smile, you'll feel better...and so will the rest of us.'

How is that so different from what you're suggesting?
'Hide your pain...and any other negative emotions...else I'll feel a need to control it or calm it down.'

I would rather certain expressions be done in private and away from the general views of other individuals around; I have often run into trouble with FeSi types not caring where they do it.

No, I think certain emotional expressions at certain times are "over the top." For instance, when we had a birthday party, my sister went off on my brother-in-law, in front of family and friends, basically humiliating him (but to her, it's not humiliation, it's what FeSi does, without regard for the social situation or the reputation at stake of the individual they are doing it to). I think that was rude and uncalled for as well as a violation of another person; this is why I prefer disputes to take place one on one and in private. I would not risk such violation of the individual, but to FeSi, such thing is not considered a violation, because that's not the way they look at it. Here's another, she brought up a totally dampening emotional situation that she was feeling towards my father at our cousin's birthday party, shifting the emotional atmosphere. I just remained quiet as she seemed to convey these feelings that had nothing to do with the party of another person, who should be celebrated (that's why we were there). For me, in my opinion, I would walk away from these situation, hiding them for another time, more private time. This also has to do with how much an EII values the harmony of human relations.

I haven't ever heard of an Fe type tell me "smile, you'll feel better." I think that would be more of an SiFe thing to do. They would, instead, use some sort of word play, joking around, goofy body movements, to get a laugh out of me.


The emotions shouldn't be unreservedly expressed, certain things should be kept to oneself. I'm not saying that the emotions shouldn't be felt. To a humanist, an emotional environment serves the purpose to be compassionate to human misery, to find words of comfort to others and provide moral support. To FeSi expression of emotion, comfortable or otherwise takes presidency over civilized social norms, if you feel it get it out there regardless of what people think. I guess it's more important to an EII to maintain appearances (??). This needs more examination.