Why it's so important that he joins?Originally Posted by liveandletlive
Maybe he wouldn't even have time to read and write on the board, so it would be pointless for him to join.
Why it's so important that he joins?Originally Posted by liveandletlive
Maybe he wouldn't even have time to read and write on the board, so it would be pointless for him to join.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
if you get desperate, tell him he is guaranteed to find either love or god here. that'll surely convince him to join.Originally Posted by liveandletlive
whenever the dog and i see each other we both stop where we are. we regard each other with a mixture of sadness and suspicion and then we feign indifference.
Jerry, The Zoo Story by Edward Albee
i think it would be good for him and it would make me happy to see him branch out and for us to have something to talk about and relate to. I think this socionics stuff can fuck with a N person's head way more than an S person IMO, and i see sometimes how it makes him... it's good to have a support group of the "enlightened ones" i also feel that he would be able to contribute a lot and also learn a lot and help him grow even more so in his understanding of socionics, as it has for me <3Originally Posted by Warlord
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
im pretty sure he's an aetheist but the whole love thing may work.Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
You want a re-do? How do you think I feel? And we did not actually say those things. And you did a good job of foolng me into thinking that you sort of understood what I was explaining.
can you verify the charges made against you with regards to your involvement with moqtada al-sadr?Originally Posted by NiiTe
I dont know what you are talking about, please explainOriginally Posted by niffweed17
according to reports you are a known electrician/carpenter. what is there to explain?Originally Posted by NiiTe
Ok, how can you speak English, do serious work on Socionics, and NOT be a member of this forum?
liveandletlive, if he's not going to give in and join already, tell him I said I think his theory is weak and his "point system" sounds less inspired than half of the half-assed theories on this site. See how that works. :wink:
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
i thought he already did joinOriginally Posted by Cone
If it sounds less inspired than "half of the half-assed theories on this site," thats because it is. I needed something to do when I was bored in Statistics. I never said I did serious work on socionics.Originally Posted by Cone
WTF, then why is his joined date before the date this thread was created when the OP said he didn't join before that? WHY DOES THE WORLD NEVER MAKE SENSE TO ME AND WHY DO YOU ALL ACT LIKE YOU UNDERSTAND IT FINE?
Oh, and NiiTe, ignore what I said about your theory. I was hoping you would join so I could hear about it. Just trying a little reverse psychology and the like.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
Its really half assed. But what the heck, here it is. Lets start by looking at intertype relationships by quadra.
In your own quadra, your intertype relationships are Dual, ID, Activity, and Mirror.
In your own quadra, every type has the same quadra values as you. For Gamma Quadra they are:
- are the p quadra values.
- are the j quadra values
It could be argued that hypothetically, as far as quadras go, your best quadra relationship is with your own quadra. For the quadra that you have the hypothetically next best relationship, it depends of whether you are J or P. For an ILI which is a p type, the next best quadra would be Beta because it has the same p quadra values.
Beta Qudra Values
-p
-j
Your intertype relationships with this next best qudra are SemiDual, Comparative, Benefit(The one you benifit from), and Supervisor.
The next best quadra after that would be Delta, because they have the same j quadra values.
Your relationships with this quadra are Illusionary, Look a Like, Benefit(the one that benefits from you) and Supervisee.
The last quadra would be Alpha. This qudra doesnt share any quadra values with Gamma.
Your relationships with Alpha areContrast, Super-Ego, Quasi Identical, and Conflict.
In Summary, your relationships with your best Quadra are Dual, ID, Activity, and Mirror.
Your relationships with the 2nd best Quadra are SemiDual, Comparative, Benefit(The one you benifit from), and Supervisor.
Your relationships with the 3rd Quadra are Illusionary, Look a Like, Benefit(the one that benefits from you) and Supervisee.
And your relationships with your worst quadra are Contrast, Super-Ego, Quasi Identical, and Conflict.
Now this isnt exact, but in general you have better relationships with some one from a quadra that has common quadra values with you.
This isnt finished. This "system" I thought of just splits up an intertype relationship into your relationship with that quadra and your relationship with that temperment. (Temperment is either EP EJ Ip or Ij)
So for the first half of the System, it works like this
Dual~Quad(11)
Conflict~Quad(00)
Comparative~Quad(10)
LookALike~Quad(01)
for the first number in Quad, it is 1 if you share you first set of quadra values with that type, and 0 otherwise.
for the second number in Quad, it is 1 if you share the second set of quadra values with that type, and 0 otherwise.
I dont feel comfortable typing and explaining the second half until I finish this project I'm supposed to be working on.
1)Originally Posted by NiiTe
2) i feel like i knew this before the theory... maybe it was how it was explained? idk...
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
I said I wasnt finished. The defense rests.Originally Posted by liveandletlive
there were like checks and stuff... idk whatever. i posted your comments in another thread cuz they surprisingly supported another argument of mine.Originally Posted by NiiTe
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
Originally Posted by NiiTe
this idea is both extremely obvious and completely wrong. the whole mess of subtypes and the information metabolism spectrum (ie an ILI ranges from a maximum of Te-valuing to a maximum of Ni-valuing, thus lying at some specific place between beta and delta) seems to agree more with reality, which says that relations are variable and not necessarily definite in their "goodness."
also its hard to compare beta relationships with delta relationships for a gamma, because the two have diametrically opposed information preferences and the interactions between these elements with them are often too different to compare in any kind of meaningful fashion.
i disagree- if he were to base his theory completely on classical socionics then it would work. yes it may seem obvious thus far but it gets more involved. i disagree with you about betas and deltas too- you can compare them in a meaningful fashion based on what they value and what we value. For instance, LSEs benefit from me, but are semi-duals with my mirror, ESI. Obviously the LSEs get more out of our relationship than i do because of what they value as most important ( / ) vs. what i value as most important ( / ). So my first-best relationship quadra outside of my own would be beta. With ESIs they get more out of their relationships with LSEs than I do because of what they value as more important than i do. So their first-best relationship quadra outside of their own would be delta.Originally Posted by niffweed17
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
consider this example, and assume that subtypes exist and refer to the axis of information that is preferred for a particular type.
i'm an extreme ILI-Te subtype (for argument's sake). i am almost an SLI. my dual is almost an IEE. my conflictor lies diametrically opposed to me, so is on the Ti/Fe axis, and is ESE but is almost an EIE.
do you think that for a person like that, beta relations would be better than delta, in terms of preferred information metabolism?
i see where you're getting at but i still hold my stance. BTW, how can you be so ILI-Te you're almost SLI? Si and Ni are two completely different elements and are independent of their creative function. Both of their leading functions are and respectively so therefore they're "chosen" as their primary method of gathering information.Originally Posted by niffweed17
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
I think the idea is that an ILI- and a SLI- both place a greater amount of emphasis on than the XLI-Pi types, such that these two subtypes have a great deal in common in terms of their relations despite having different primary functions. What annoys a SLI- will not always be the same things or to the same extent as an SLI- type, and the same holds true for the ILI subtypes.Originally Posted by liveandletlive
Johari Box"Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
to some extent this is true. it does seem to me (solely from observation; i could be dead wrong) that people do tend to prefer one function over another (ie, there are no "pure" Te creative types with equally valued Si/Ni).Originally Posted by liveandletlive
how can this be, still maintaining the subtype model? a wonderful paradox.
nonetheless, the "almost an SLI" was fundamentally an example, although it does seem like Te subtypes (myself included, if i'm Te subtype, which most people seem to think i am, and which probably makes more sense than Ni) would have stronger Si than Ni subtypes, and, theoretically, vice versa for Fe.
who what where?Originally Posted by ifmd95
if the SEE resembles an SLE, the polr is less vulnerable and this is not as significant of a problem.the problem i see with his system is that he doesn't seem to take into consideration that beta types are more likely than delta types to hit the ESFp's POLR. (even neglecting subtypes this would seem to be a problem.)
As everyone has said, this theory assumes that the primary function axis is more important to personality than the secondary function axis. It might be argued that one gets along better with their semi-dual and kindred more than their illusionary and look-alike, however this just doesn't tie in line with asymmetric relationships.
@ifmd95
What do you mean by relationship appraisals?
PoLR
Suggestive Function
Regular Double-shot Espresso Subtype
Just because I'm a thinking type doesn't mean I'm not an idiot.
Your method relies on the facts that relationships can actually be enumerated and that the enumerated values have actual worth besides ordering the set of relationships. As argued in the other thread and elsewhere on the board, neither is the case.
PoLR
Suggestive Function
Regular Double-shot Espresso Subtype
Just because I'm a thinking type doesn't mean I'm not an idiot.
right, since a lot of people are taking this system way too literally or think I am placing too much value on it, I'll save myself the trouble of explaining the rest. All it it does is concisely present information about intertype relationships. Any sort of numerical ranking system is an interpretation of the information that is presented. and yes, it could be argued that sharing your second pair of quadra values is more important than sharing the first set because that means you wont have to deal with with the other type using your Polr on you.
Without some good observations of real people both the subtype theory and NiiTe's theory stay as a rather fruitless Ti-exercise.
I like the idea of the subtype theory where e.g. INTp quadra values move toward Beta or Gamma depending on their subtype. It is very logical. However I haven't observed it in practice because I don't know enough INTps. I haven't even reliably observed subtypes. I have just read about observations of them. I don't think you can choose which interpretation works without more observations.
that's ridiculous. you can't take a mathematical average of functional preferences and call it a relationship.Originally Posted by ifmd95
you are grasping at straws here. if you go there, natural variation is going to have much more of an influence than smilexian blather.
Originally Posted by Quirk Satellite Div.
well, which one is right?
Originally Posted by XoX
have you observed people that seem to prefer one functional axis over the other?
i am not having this discussion.
Now that I think about it, I've gotten more benifit out of developing this arbitrary system than I have out of using it because it made me think about the importance of Static/Dynamic in intertype relationships.
Umm. I know I should understand that after being here for almost two years but I don't. So explain a bit moreOriginally Posted by niffweed17
Originally Posted by XoX
say you have two representatives of the same type; call it ILI. you talk to each of them for an hour. would you be able to tell if one of them seemed to mostly value Ni and the other seemed to use mostly Te, especially in comparison to each other?
not to say that every pair should do this, and perhaps i'm not providing a very eloquent example at all, but i do think that you can find people that seem to prefer one of their information aspects over the other.
Ah ok. I do notice difference between INTp-Ni and INTp-Te. At least I think I do. However I haven't observed whether the INTp-Ni actually gets along with Betas better than with Deltas and the INTp-Te with Deltas better than with Betas. Or if the INTp-Te actually is more ISTp-like in the sense of using more Si and valuing more Ne. The subtype theory makes many assumptions to arrive to this conclusion. Then there is this other subtype theory which focuses on temperament shifts and claims that INTp-Te would be more "rational" than INTp-Ni and thus shift towards ENTj and not ISTp. This is what PotatoSpirit brought up in my subtype thread.Originally Posted by niffweed17
these are fair criticisms, and the only real answer to them is that you have to see people for yourself and decide.Originally Posted by XoX
If I didn't make it clear, I am attacking NiiTe's idea.Originally Posted by niffweed17
PoLR
Suggestive Function
Regular Double-shot Espresso Subtype
Just because I'm a thinking type doesn't mean I'm not an idiot.
Considering what's been recently posted here, anyone like that probably should avoid this forum like plague.Originally Posted by Cone
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp