Archon, I do think your subtype ideas are interesting. (I just wanted to say this.)Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion
Archon, I do think your subtype ideas are interesting. (I just wanted to say this.)
I feel I need to say that Steve had given me the idea for the object field switchy thing, which I eleborated on, so credit should go to him also
The end is nigh
Thanks for your replies.
Diana, the circular idea is interesting. In the past, before settling on my own type, I had contemplated SLI. So the idea there is that I might have been seeing a little of myself in the Te creative of the SLI. Taking this idea and running with it, it would be reasonable to say that a Te LIE, being closer to delta than other LIEs, would perhaps be more averse to an Ni ILI, who is closer to the opposing beta quadra. A sort of fake quadra opposition? Reasonable or crazy? I like the thought of it.
Bionicgoat, I choose hoagie. No, hero. No… HeroHoagie! I get your idea, you’re basically saying that this is not type related, that it is more of an individual preference thing, that I, in my friend’s palet, am more agreeable than my spicier cousin, that ILI2. So you don’t think subtypes influence intertype relations. Or maybe you do and I interpreted that incorrectly. Or maybe you just wanted to post about sammiches.
ArchonAlarion, I’ll take your opinion! Applying what you said to myself, a Te ILI would have Te mode(leading) Ni Utility, Se Agenda, Fi Activation. Did I translate correctly? That my main area of perception would be Te, and I’ll want to use Te to produce actions which affect my agenda, Se. When you say the agenda is like a sandbox, do you mean your agenda or everybody’s agenda? And after that, my mode and agenda are both object elements, making me, in your terms, homo-productive and of an irrational temperament. I do like how you explain it in your last paragraph. From what I’ve read about you on the boards, your thoughts diverge from the traditional, so what you just said isn’t based on Model A?
Thanks for your inputs and thanks for educating me.
[QUOTE=Microknight;510494]
Bionicgoat, I choose hoagie. No, hero. No… HeroHoagie! I get your idea, you’re basically saying that this is not type related, that it is more of an individual preference thing, that I, in my friend’s palet, am more agreeable than my spicier cousin, that ILI2. So you don’t think subtypes influence intertype relations. Or maybe you do and I interpreted that incorrectly. Or maybe you just wanted to post about sammiches.
[QUOTE]
it was a joke (a bad one). You wanted info on subtypes (types of sub(marine sandwiches))
sorry.
You did translate correctly. Te INTp's have that functional order.
What happens is that you use the mode to take in reality, like all the elements, but its your main way to.
Types are driven to "produce" with the agenda.
I call the Mode-Agenda the "Project-block" because it is the focal point of that type's projects, interests, and general activities throughout life.
Types want to produce a tangible product of their agenda element. Meaning that they want to use their Mode to segway into creating agenda output, if that makes sense. Of course you use the elements as passive input filters, but the function which is a cognitive space, or subsystem, if you will, is in this case oriented to output. You want to make your agenda "come alive"
So like I said, Ti ENTp's like to make systems which organically/fluidly operate or grow. We have interest in things like macro-evolutionary theory (Richard Dawkins), and games like Spore (Will Wright - Ti ENTp) exemplify our desire to design settings and environments which physically morph and evolve. Even liguistics is a point of interest because it combines mulitple language systems, their divergence, and a seething, almost biological growth (think memetics). I like making up my own languanges and declensions lol often for worldbuilding stuff I do.
Fe ESFj's are of course Fe mode. They sense the converging, twisting, and "colorful" Fe leylines, which they follow or trace backwards, gleaning subtle information, often relating to social situations, due to the challenge and variety this type can find there. But you'll notice that they are very organized, concerned over making sure they are tidy and rule obeying at the work place. Or at least, they want to clarify and make order out of the objects in the field of their environment/workplace/home. This type is concerned with creating a physical manifestation of Ti.
Yes, I diverge from Model A.
Hope that helps =)
The end is nigh
I think that subtypes are kinda like excuses. SorryThis may very well be because I'm balanced and I don't have a clear subtypes, I feel even whenever I read up on NeFi subtypes. It seems like subtypes are sorta like loop holes for people who don't neatly fit into their type. But I embrace that sort of thing! I don't neatly fit into NeFi, but I know I am that type. I know my own personal experiences has shaped my personality in a way some (or all) other NeFi haven't been exposed to. I believe it's one thing to find your type and apply it as a broad understanding of people, rather than create a subtype theory so everyone can "fit in" since 16 types wasn't enough.
Here's a way to visualize it and can really help in understanding the phenomenon:
The following picture can apply for a Ti ENTp (or any of the Ji EXXps, which have a static field mode [Ti or Fi] and a dynamic field agenda [Si or Ni])
The stationary white grid lines indicate the static field mode which acts as the filter for this loose dynamic field agenda to flow through. Notice how the static field in this case is the solid, well defined, "honed" mechanism, while the colored agenda is very loose, flexible, broad, and doing whatever (thus the colors).
If you want to imagine Pi IXXps with the same picture, imagine that the moving part is white and very well defined (honed dynamic field Si or Ni mode), while the static structure is loose, colorful and flexible to provide the background (broad background static field Ti or Fi agenda)
With Pe-Exxps, instead of fields, it's both objects. You have the loose Te or Fe agenda sort of rolling around the set static Se or Ne mode.
Kind of like this:
For the Je-IXXps in this picture, you can imagine that the dynamic aspects of the picture are emphasized and more honed, while the static objects are more loosely defined and get tossed around - the loose Se or Ne sort of vaguely encases the dynamic Te or Fe.
Contrarily with J types, you have the object field switch from mode to agenda, so you can visualize it like this, with the object expanding into a field, or a field collapsing into an object: (Ti and Fi collapsing into Fe and Te in Ti IXTj and Fi IXFj respectively, Si and Ni collapsing into Ne and Se in Si ESXj and Ni ENXj respectively, Fe and Te expanding into Ti and Fi in Fe EXFj and Te EXTj respectively, and Ne and Se expanding into Si and Ni in Ne INXj and Se ISXj respectively) - although it may be the reverse, I'm not positive, but you still get the idea:
Another way of illustrating this Mode/Agenda temperament phenomenon theoretically is if you pretend there's an intersection of two streets, one of them called "object street" and the other called "field street", and that in coalescing your mode and agenda, you pass through this intersection. The starting point will be the mode, and the direction you end up on after going through the intersection will be your agenda.
Basically what you'll notice is that all the irrational types stay in a straight line, they stay on the same street through the intersection, while all rational types stop and take a 90 degree turn. This "cruising through" vs "stopping and turning" represent fundamentally different temperaments and ways of orienting onesself to experience. To stop and turn, so to speak, requires a certain control. To collapse a field into an object requires certain "active" psychic control. This points to a kind of control you can sense when interacting with rational types, while with irrationals there is a more flexible, at rest, passive kind of energy you can feel - we're not talking behaviorally here, we're talking about a kind of psychic energy.
Another interesting tidbit about the "homo-productivity" (thanks Jake) of irrationals, is that the Alpha and Gamma irrationals have a congruency of two information dimensions...in other words, their mode and agenda not only are either both fields or objects, but are also either both external or internal.
For example, a Ti ENTp mode-agenda is Ti Si (external field statics and external field dynamics) and a Fe ISFp is Fe Ne (internal object dynamics and internal object statics)
Se ESFp is Se Te (external object statics, external object dynamics) and Ni INTp is Ni Fi (internal field dynamics and internal field statics)
On the other hand, the Beta and Delta irrationals have an internal/external switch between mode and agenda:
Fi ENFp: Fi Si (internal object statics, external field dynamics)
Te ISTp: Te Ne (external object dynamics, internal object statics)
Se ESTp: Se Fe (external object statics, internal object dynamics)
Ni INFp: Ni Ti (internal field dynamics, external field statics)
So basically, if you tally it all up, you get the following:
-All types switch between static and dynamic regarding their mode and agenda.
-Rationals of all quadras have a switch on all three information element dimensions (external/internal, field/object, static/dynamic) from mode to agenda.
-Irrationals of Beta/Delta have their mode/agenda switch on two information element dimensions but remain the same on what seems to be the primary dimension responsible for psychic temperament - They switch between external and internal, and from static to dynamic, but remain the same as either both objects or both fields.
-Irrationals of Alpha/Gamma have their mode/agenda switch only on one information element dimension (static/dynamic, like every type), while remaining the same on the internal/external and field/object dimensions.
The implications of this external/internal homogeneity of Alpha/Gamma vs the external/internal heterogeneity of Beta/Delta are potentially interesting, and definitely worth exploring further. Maybe it influences the Democratic vs Aristocratic aspects of each quadra.
On a closing note, as you observe the types more and more, you notice these phenomenon playing out and it's very helpful in typing.
Holy shit I'm finally done
Yes they have somewhat effect, but not to the extend that you pointed out is happening between your ILI2 and LIE friends.
For example, there's a dual at my work who I don't like. She's a narcistic bitch, which has a bigger effect then which subtype she is.
But oke, let's get back to the subtypes. You can see them in types when you know enough persons of the same type. There is a clear grouping. Yet the effect on relations is only minor. Usually the same subtype has a more synchronizing effect.
Well, I think subtypes exist. I think the effect they have on you really is that it depends on what you prefer. If you have say an ESFp with Fi sub type then their Fi is to put it in basic terms, more noticable. If said ESFp has strong Se then there's very little Fi there. To me they can seem like an ESFp-ESTp hybrid.
So it can depend on what you want from a partner or a friend which I think can also depend on the place you are in life-what you want can change over time!
Rick De Long is probably a good example of an internet ENFp Ne. I've even heard other ENFp's say they admire his Ti.
Lol, don't worry about it. It's not the first time a joke went over my head. Damn my Fe PoLR and whatnot. And to be fair, it also functions as a clever analogy.
it was a joke (a bad one). You wanted info on subtypes (types of sub(marine sandwiches))
sorry.
I'll get back to you others later.
I thought it was funny!
it was a joke (a bad one). You wanted info on subtypes (types of sub(marine sandwiches))
sorry.
ILE-Ti
6w7 sx/sp (low level of confidence)
I was just reading translated version of socionic subtypes of Gulenko. It says a lot to me...
Translated version of http://www.krasnaya-zastava.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6738&sid=cd2c922664025f08c085e154b 2aae28c
Sincerely Yours,
Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.
The Rebel without a cause.
Steve that was one of the best posts I've seen in awhile, great freakin job man
The end is nigh
uh yeah. that means a lot, considering:Steve that was one of the best posts I've seen in awhile, great freakin job man
1. you've been here all of 2 months or whatever.
2. you haven't read anything written before your arrival. why bother? you were born knowing it/have Ashton or Steve to listen to.
3. you probably restrict your forum reading to topics YOU find interesting.
4. you've already chosen Steve as your main source of information. How could he not post "the best post" you've ever seen?
EII; E6(w5)
i am flakey
1. I un/fortunately spend a lot of time here, so I've read quite a few posts
2. I spent a few months on socionics before my "arrival" and before that, a year on MBTI
3. Nopers
4. Wrong, and its still a very descriptive and concise presentation
So instead of attacking me with your petty BS, please just go and learn socionics, and dont concentrate so hard on discrediting me based on the logical fallacies of "Experience, presumption, and motivation". Which is silly besides due to my previous post being a compliment to a member who took the time to make a fine depiction, and was not an argument in itself.
The end is nigh
.
I feel like it could make a great racist word. What ethnicity shall we apply it to?
Jews?
Weren't there a bunch of fucking posts in hizzere that I can't fucking see any more?
Were they moved or some crazy shit?
Wond'ring aloud, How we feel today. Last night sipped the sunset, My hand in her hair. We are our own saviours, As we start both our hearts, Beating life Into each other. ~Ian Anderson
Where are these posts? My mind is eager to start speculating motives for this, so an explanation is in order. If this was not an accident then someone is dangerously insecure. But I'll wait for an explanation before jumping to conclusions.
you bastards deleted half of my post above, only leaving a suggestion for a racial slur... or did you MOVE the post?
I think I moved four posts and copied four others for context into a new thread because they weren't discussing subtypes and\or they were discussing non-Model A stuff that wasn't relevant to subtypes. But I can't find the thread, so it's possible I put in the wrong forum or that I put them in some other thread by mistake.
I know people make mistakes, but please Subt, if you're going to move something, perhaps say so first--say why and where you're moving it to--instead of just accidentally wiping it off the face of the Earth.
All of this moving of things isn't making things easier to find, (which I assume is the point?)
Last edited by JuJu; 04-22-2009 at 02:43 PM.
yeah, please at least make a statement.
The end is nigh
How much does subtype affect relationship?
discuss...
I find it harder to connect with accepting subtypes in general. It seems like I'm doing work for them, and they seem to be showing off without direct concern about me. Difficult to explain...
With same subtype I get this feeling as, hey we're alike. I have this in every relationship.
I've heard that subtype can affect what subtype dual you do better with. Duals with complementary subtypes do best.
For example: LII-Ti with ESE-Fe and LII-Ne with ESE-Si
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
yes that's true.
Also, C subtype dualizes with H subtype and D subtype dualizes with N subtype.
So for example: LII-C dualizes best with ESE-H and LII-D dualizes best with ESE-N
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Yeah, I agree, there is a rather significant difference. Judging by which subtype I get along best with, I'd be a Te subtype, because I frequently butt heads with ESI-Se. I'm not sure about DCNH, I could see myself as multiple subtypes of that system.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Oh I always thought you were Ni subtype.
Joy is Te subtype isn't she? she seems more direct than you. But then again, it's difficult to give an opinion on posts...
anyways I frequently butt heads with ESI-Se too
Everyone does.
Depending on which subtype format, this isn't necessarily true.
Some have ESE-Fe going with LII-Ne and LII-Ti going with ESE-Si.
Subtype is very relevant. It is so relevant, that it can cause you to experience some stages of duality with a type that you are not supposed to (eg. an SLE-Ti experiencing duality with SEI-Fe).
That's what makes me doubt I am dual of Se subtype: I don't like headbutts in relationships, even once in a while.I like a good headbutt every once in a while
as long as it doesn't get too personal and end up sour.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Please elaborate.
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Duality is not correct here. Duality has to be complete complementaryness, but yes, In that subtype system a Ti SLE would probably have a pretty easy relationship with a Fe SEI.
The end is nigh
Why do subtypes make such a difference?
ok, so I believe I'm ESI-Fi. atleast I fit that description off of wikisocion better...and I know a few ESIs who have to be Se subtype because they are just so much more...aggressive, open (seem more apt at socializing just to socialize than to conjure up deep, meaningful friendships..which is maybe why i tend to not trust them), more alert...and harsher, and are NEVER the first to reconcile (unlike me...who is usually always first).
to my understanding an introverted subtype works best with an extroverted subtype and vice versa, correct?
whhhhy?
...and I've read on here somewhere a thread about how personality types potentially do not change throughout the course of one's life, but what about subtypes?
...I wonder if a few of my relationships with LIEs fell apart because they were -Ni subtypes? one even went as far as to say that i was missing something after an extensive amount of time together...I wasn't driven or bitchy enough for him. So I put forth an effort of voicing my opinions more (usually just keep them to myself), and called him names once in a while...and he responded better, but of course, it made me feel like shit.
funny enough, I just met an LIE-Te....but ah, he lacks the passion and theoretical insight that I thought was related to Ni subtypes....and I'm addicted to Ni...fuck. I hate being -Fi sometimes... i care too much
and this guy is a workaholic, who I'm pretty sure, would find my OCCASIONAL bouts of laziness unappealing..but he's pursuing me, so whatever..
idk, same goes for Activity partners and mirrors...i get along with SEE-Fi soooo much better than -Se...who just come off as attention-seeking bitches IMO.
the whole thing pisses me off.
I was always somewhat hesitant to jump into Gulenko's subtypes, while I've known people who did "fit" one more so than the other it didn't always apply.
The Borisova DCNH subtypes are less constricting, from what I've read, and I've been able to understand differences within the same types a bit easier than before.
From what I understand, in your case, if you're an ESI who has a particular focus on Ni despite fitting the identification of ESI, you may be an ESI-Harmonizing subtype
I could be wrong, but I think it works as follows
Dominant- Te/Fe
Creative- Ne/Se
Normalizing- Ti/Fi
Harmonizing- Ni/Si
and you bring-up a good point about how it can affect intertype, but I find it more poignant in neighboring than within my own quadra, at least that's been my own experience
EII INFj
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