How do subtypes affect intertype relationships?

[Ms. Kensington]

I don't recall reading about how subtypes affect relationships other than in a mirror relationship.

If you were in a relationship with your identical, but had different subtypes, would the relationship be less boring?

Anyone have experience with this relationship?

I have a friend who tested INTJ on MBTI most of the time (other times she'd test INFJ and ISTJ, but INTJ most times) and I would test INTP, almost everytime. I figured whatever we were, we were the opposite of each other (If she was INTp then i was INTj, and vice versa). She definitely needs her outer world ordered, and I definitely have less of a grasp on time and personal organization.

Though we are different, she says i understand her best of all her friends. Otherwise, I don't feel I am with my identical when Im with her.

[pezzonovante]

What affect does your subtype have on your 5th and 6th functions?


For instance I am an ENTJ Intuitive Subtype. So that means out of




My is weaker than usual while my is stronger.


But how does this affect the , the things that I want from others? I theorize that having stronger slightly negates the need for , which leads to the need for having a priority. This fits with my desire for related things (money, power) being stronger than other ENTJs.

Thus my perfect dual would be an ISFJ sensory subtype, according to this reasoning. Hmmmmm.

Discuss.

[FDG]

perfect dual ISFJ sensory subtype

Good luck with that

[Joy]

I'm not so sure about that subtype dualization theory. I'm E(N)Tj and I'm with an I(S)Fj, and it seems that the only issues we ever have happen when I'm not getting the Fi I want or he's not getting the Te he wants. We're weak on the Te/Fi axis. Issues that arise as a result are quickly and easily resolved, but they are there nonetheless.

[Raver]

Interesting that Pezzonovante just posted this topic, because I had been thinking about this for quite a while, I think XoX might has posted a similar topic in the past if I remember correctly. However, my viewpoint is that both subtype relations are positive, it's just that they both offer different alternative paths to dualization?

I'm not so sure about that subtype dualization theory. I'm E(N)Tj and I'm with an I(S)Fj, and it seems that the only issues we ever have happen when I'm not getting the Fi I want or he's not getting the Te he wants. We're weak on the Te/Fi axis. Issues that arise as a result are quickly and easily resolved, but they are there nonetheless.

Have you considered that you might actually an activity relation, since your not getting eachother's functions completely fulfilled? Anyways, your description sounds a lot like an ENTJ-ESFP couple I know.

[Raver]

Interesting that Pezzonovante just posted this topic, because I had been thinking about this for quite a while, I think XoX might have posted a similar topic in the past if I remember correctly. However, my viewpoint is that both subtype relations are positive, it's just that they both offer different alternative paths to dualization?

I'm not so sure about that subtype dualization theory. I'm E(N)Tj and I'm with an I(S)Fj, and it seems that the only issues we ever have happen when I'm not getting the Fi I want or he's not getting the Te he wants. We're weak on the Te/Fi axis. Issues that arise as a result are quickly and easily resolved, but they are there nonetheless.

Have you considered the possibility that you might actually be experiencing an activity relation, since your not getting eachother's functions completely fulfilled? Anyways, your description sounds a lot like an ENTJ-ESFP couple I know.

[Joy]

I've considered that we could be activity partners, but it would be INTp/ISFj. Peter is definitely IJ > EP (and yes, I know he doesn't portray that here... and no, I don't expect you to believe me ).

[Joy]

(I have a very hard time seeing ESFp as my dual though... )

[Raver]

I've considered that we could be activity partners, but it be INTp/ISFj. Peter is definitely IJ > EP (and yes, I know he doesn't portray that here... and no, I don't expect you to believe me ).

Yes, that's also possible. He does give off a rather EP vibe in the forum, but I guess in real life he could possibly be IJ as you say.

[Joy]

He's pretty much just pure Se here, if you understand the tone of his posts.

[FDG]

He's pretty much just pure Se here, if you understand the tone of his posts.

It does seem a lot like Ti to me, coupled with Se.

[Joy]

Se > Fi = Ti

Socionics is a very "Ti" theory, so he's a lot more Ti here than he is most of the time.

[Raver]

Joy, Does this description fit your relationship?:

Do you constantly fight over the disagreements over a particular issue that has little to do with your relationship, while ending quickly and then resurfacing again? Sometimes making you feel like the relationship is going to end. However, in the next day the relationship is better than it ever was and amazing overall. A good way to describe this relationship is an erratic heart beat constantly increasing and decreasing and rarely remaining stable.

[FDG]

Se > Fi = Ti

Socionics is a very "Ti" theory, so he's a lot more Ti here than he is most of the time.

I'm not really talking about when he speaks about the theory, but mostly at when he makes a point about something.

Anyway, Traveler...DJ is reallyyy not ESFp

[Joy]

Joy, Does this description fit your relationship?:

Do you constantly fight over the disagreements over a particular issue that has little to do with your relationship, while ending quickly and then resurfacing again? Sometimes making you feel like the relationship is going to end. However, in the next day the relationship is better than it ever was and amazing overall. A good way to describe this relationship is an erratic heart beat constantly increasing and decreasing and rarely remaining stable.

Not at all. The relationship is extremely stable. We don't really ever have disagreements, per say... more like "issues" that are the result of a lack of communication. As soon as the communication gap is bridged, the issue is totally gone. These issues are few and far between.

[Raver]

Joy, Does this description fit your relationship?:

Do you constantly fight over the disagreements over a particular issue that has little to do with your relationship, while ending quickly and then resurfacing again? Sometimes making you feel like the relationship is going to end. However, in the next day the relationship is better than it ever was and amazing overall. A good way to describe this relationship is an erratic heart beat constantly increasing and decreasing and rarely remaining stable.

Not at all. The relationship is extremely stable. We don't really ever have disagreements, per say... more like "issues" that are the result of a lack of communication. As soon as the communication gap is bridged, the issue is totally gone. These issues are few and far between.

Alright, the description was the way I perceived an activity relation to be. Take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt, since I'm merely speculating and throwing ideas around.

[Joy]

If he's not ISFj, INTp would be the next possibility... but it seems unlikely. His mom read the descriptions and picked ISFj (without any coercion lol). He's not "timid" or laid back enough to be an INTp (not sure how to word that better... may need to describe this "INTp timidness" elsewhere if it's disputed, and the laid back thing is obviously a matter of perception because some people see INTps as bitching about everything all the time), and the most apparent thing about his type is the IJ temperament. And Ne makes the most sense for his PoLR. He uses Fe a lot less than most ISFjs probably do, but it's not a sensitive spot. He can certainly take Fe criticism in stride.

[Raver]

If he's not ISFj, INTp would be the next possibility... but it seems unlikely. His mom read the descriptions and picked ISFj (without any coercion lol). He's not "timid" or laid back enough to be an INTp (not sure how to word that better... may need to describe this "INTp timidness" elsewhere if it's disputed, and the laid back thing is obviously a matter of perception because some people see INTps as bitching about everything all the time), and the most apparent thing about his type is the IJ temperament. And Ne makes the most sense for his PoLR. He uses Fe a lot less than most ISFjs probably do, but it's not a sensitive spot. He can certainly take Fe criticism in stride.

Yeah that is another possibility, but you've seemed to have discounted it, so who knows. Let's discuss this via PM in order to prevent this thread from getting derailed or start a new topic.

[Joy]

sounds good

[discourse]

It actually sounds as a joyfull relationship between the Illusionairys.

[FDG]

It actually sounds as a joyfull relationship between the Illusionairys.

Lol. I love hearing your opinions on types and realtionships (seriously though)

[pezzonovante]

Joy, Does this description fit your relationship?:

Do you constantly fight over the disagreements over a particular issue that has little to do with your relationship, while ending quickly and then resurfacing again? Sometimes making you feel like the relationship is going to end. However, in the next day the relationship is better than it ever was and amazing overall. A good way to describe this relationship is an erratic heart beat constantly increasing and decreasing and rarely remaining stable.

I think this is a very good description of the relationship between activity partners.

A series of "real life" descriptions of romantic relationships between the different intertype relations would be great if everyone could contribute their own experiences.

[Joy]

Joy, Does this description fit your relationship?:

Do you constantly fight over the disagreements over a particular issue that has little to do with your relationship, while ending quickly and then resurfacing again? Sometimes making you feel like the relationship is going to end. However, in the next day the relationship is better than it ever was and amazing overall. A good way to describe this relationship is an erratic heart beat constantly increasing and decreasing and rarely remaining stable.

I think this is a very good description of the relationship between activity partners.

A series of "real life" descriptions of romantic relationships between the different intertype relations would be great if everyone could contribute their own experiences.

start a thread

[Joy]

Is it just me or do these descriptions make it sound like, for example, a sensory subtype ISTj would match up better with an ethical subtype ENFj, and a logical ISTj with an intuitive ENFj?

[UDP]

Generally speaking, is it more preferable for a mix of subtypes (rational and irrational subtypes), or the same rationality?

[aestrivex]

i don't think you can make such a generality.


although there is some dissent with the effect of subtypes on most forms of relations, it should be at least fairly clear that conflicting relations are least strained when both types are producing or accepting subtypes rather than a mix of those, to minimize polr bashing (or maybe subtype has no effect on this at all; who really knows?) most people, however, seem to agree that duality is "best" with subtypes of the same axis, whatever that means.

if true, these would be an example that the subtype theory does not apply uniformly to intertype relations, at least in the way you describe.

[Ms. Kensington]

I thought it would be good to have a thread about this topic. I think now that subtypes can have a significant affect on a relation.

Please place examples and discussion here.

I have seen a smoother relationship with ENTjs who are logical subtype rather than intuitive. I think this does have to do with my preference for Ne (and corresponding discomfort with Se, which I would assume the intuitive subtype ENTj puts more emphasis on than the thinking subtype).

I have also seen significant difference in my relationships with different subtypes of my mirror, the ENTp. Also, INFp.

I have seen less extreme but noticeable differences with the different subtypes of ESFj, ISFp, and ISTp.

On one level this can seem extremely obvious but on another not so simple. One question I have been having is that in the case of extreme subtypes, do you think one class of relation can become "better" than another or do you think you must trek around looking for a dual with as an extreme subtype as you? Would the subtypes need to match or be opposite?

[machintruc]

basically, this would add 1 basic dichotomy for relations : "mono-subtype" and "hetero-subtype" ; if we could explain the interaction of subtypes...

[tcaudilllg]

I thought it would be good to have a thread about this topic. I think now that subtypes can have a significant affect on a relation.

Please place examples and discussion here.

I have seen a smoother relationship with ENTjs who are logical subtype rather than intuitive. I think this does have to do with my preference for Ne (and corresponding discomfort with Se, which I would assume the intuitive subtype ENTj puts more emphasis on than the thinking subtype).

I have also seen significant difference in my relationships with different subtypes of my mirror, the ENTp. Also, INFp.

I have seen less extreme but noticeable differences with the different subtypes of ESFj, ISFp, and ISTp.

On one level this can seem extremely obvious but on another not so simple. One question I have been having is that in the case of extreme subtypes, do you think one class of relation can become "better" than another or do you think you must trek around looking for a dual with as an extreme subtype as you? Would the subtypes need to match or be opposite?

...That's it.

You moron, you are interpreting crosstype information as subtype information. Idiot.

If you want an answer to this question, see the crosstype theory and start typing RIGHT.

[machintruc]

...That's it.

You moron, you are interpreting crosstype information as subtype information. Idiot.

If you want an answer to this question, see the crosstype theory and start typing RIGHT.

how can crosstypes be correlated to subtypes ?

[tcaudilllg]

I'm increasingly skeptical that subtypes exist....

...At first I thought "this person uses more energy for this function than that one; that's why they look different from me", which is what the crosstype theory tells us. Now I completely account VI differences for differences in information exertion, so I don't need that rather feeble crutch any longer. Nor do I have any reason to believe that one person's function is "stronger" than another in any way that is not already explained by Model-A.

Are you not getting along with your dual? Could be that they're your dual-conflictor, which means that what you do actually conflicts with what they themselves are trying to do. Will that influence your relations with them? Absolutely.

The dual-type model allows for 240 VI possibilities... if you see a portly, big-boned INTj, consider that they might have an ISFp exertion type. Or consider that they might just be overweight.

[Exodus]

I'm beginning to realize that, at least within my quadra, I tend to get along much better with all creative subtypes (which I am myself). Also I(N)Fj better than IN(F)j.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[FDG]

Well I think people should start reading one of the smilingeyes latest posts that sheds light on how relations really go.

Some few examples are that EXXP-Pe and IXXP-Je relations can be strained, whereas EXXP-Pe and IXXJ-Pe can be good, even if the types are supposedly conflictors. Ex that's why an ESTp-Se can get along better with an INTj-Ne than an INTj-Ti even if the relations would predict that the INTj-Ne and ESTp-Se would basically be conflictors.

Here it is:

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9033 <-- one of the last posts

[tcaudilllg]

I thought it would be good to have a thread about this topic. I think now that subtypes can have a significant affect on a relation.

Please place examples and discussion here.

I have seen a smoother relationship with ENTjs who are logical subtype rather than intuitive. I think this does have to do with my preference for Ne (and corresponding discomfort with Se, which I would assume the intuitive subtype ENTj puts more emphasis on than the thinking subtype).

I have also seen significant difference in my relationships with different subtypes of my mirror, the ENTp. Also, INFp.

I have seen less extreme but noticeable differences with the different subtypes of ESFj, ISFp, and ISTp.

On one level this can seem extremely obvious but on another not so simple. One question I have been having is that in the case of extreme subtypes, do you think one class of relation can become "better" than another or do you think you must trek around looking for a dual with as an extreme subtype as you? Would the subtypes need to match or be opposite?

...That's it.

You moron, you are interpreting crosstype information as subtype information. Idiot.

If you want an answer to this question, see the crosstype theory and start typing RIGHT.

Hey now, no reason to insult msk! That's right, everyone else is wrong, and only you're right. As far as I've seen you haven't ever clearly explained yourself or why you believe crosstypes are a more reasonable explanation than subtypes.

Shut up Diana. That's an order from one liberal to another.

And you will stand with me in support of the crosstype theory. You are acting foolish by feigning ignorance of it. Or are you not a liberal?

I warn that any who dare attempt to render all my hard work against adversity for nought will pay dearly for their transgression. This is fate and you cannot change it. I will succeed.

[UDP]

Let's all take a moment to imagine an ESFj-ISTj coming along and touching up the 'ethicial blunder' of the LII

*pictureshow*

Very good class. Essays are due next week.

[Slacker]

I thought it would be good to have a thread about this topic. I think now that subtypes can have a significant affect on a relation.

Please place examples and discussion here.

I have seen a smoother relationship with ENTjs who are logical subtype rather than intuitive. I think this does have to do with my preference for Ne (and corresponding discomfort with Se, which I would assume the intuitive subtype ENTj puts more emphasis on than the thinking subtype).

I have also seen significant difference in my relationships with different subtypes of my mirror, the ENTp. Also, INFp.

I have seen less extreme but noticeable differences with the different subtypes of ESFj, ISFp, and ISTp.

On one level this can seem extremely obvious but on another not so simple. One question I have been having is that in the case of extreme subtypes, do you think one class of relation can become "better" than another or do you think you must trek around looking for a dual with as an extreme subtype as you? Would the subtypes need to match or be opposite?

...That's it.

You moron, you are interpreting crosstype information as subtype information. Idiot.

If you want an answer to this question, see the crosstype theory and start typing RIGHT.

I hope you're joking, because otherwise you are way way way out of line. 1. Calling anyone a moron or idiot, and 2. trying to force someone to follow your theory.

[Steve]

I do believe subtypes exist, infact I've seen very clear examples of the different subtypes.

I am a believer that with each subtype, its not that one function is used more than the other or that one is stronger, it's that the functions are used differently.

Basic socionics theory states that functions are made up of different information elements. They are as follows:

extraverted intuition = internal statics of objects
extraverted sensing = external statics of objects
extraverted logic = external dynamics of objects
extraverted ethics = internal dynamics of objects
introverted intuition = internal dynamics of fields
introverted sensing = external dynamics of fields
introverted logic = external statics of fields
introverted ethics = internal statics of fields
(taken from socionics.us)

Also it is important to note the distinction between object and fields:

Objects:Things that can be observed, studied, and discussed apart from the subject (observer)
Fields:Things that are perceived through the subject by means of feelings and cannot be studied apart from the subject.
(from socionics.us)

So, in term of subtypes, I believe that the functions work in a slightly different context and process information in a slightly different order for each subtype.

For example:

Take an ENTp, whose primary functions are Ne and Ti; in other words, Internal Statics of Objects and External Statics of Fields

In my view, an ENTp-Ne subtype will experience things in primarily an object mode, and their look will reflect looking AT something, perceiving something separate from themselves. Their Ne perceives the internal static qualities of objects, and then the person takes those static qualities of objects and forms them into a Ti field (a more abstract, theoretical form), so in essence Ti forms together Ne's perceptions.

For an ENTp-Ti, they experience things in primarily a field mode, or an applied field mode, focusing on the systems and coherence connecting objects, and their look will reflect them being immersed in the fields that surround them. Now how Ne functions for a Ti sub is it takes these fields the person experiences, and treats those fields as objects, and perceives the internal static qualities of these fields.

So, in summation, (Note: I had to use """""" simply for spacing purposes and ignore it when interpreting the diagram)

Ne sub: [Ne-Ne-Ne-Ne-Ne-Ne-Ne-Ne-Ne-Ne-Ne-Ne] (Ne, an applied perception of the internal static qualities of objects)
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ''\ /
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''Ti (An abstract mental field of Ne objects)

Ti sub: Ti,-Ti,- Ti, - Ti,-Ti,- Ti,- Ti, (Ti, An applied judgment on the external static qualities of the fields and their coherence)
'''''''''''''''|'''''|''''''|'''''''|''''''|'''''' |''''''|
''''''''''''''Ne-Ne-Ne- Ne- Ne-Ne-Ne (Ne, an abstract perception of the internal static qualities of the fields)

If you wanted to you could even call each version of Ne and Ti something different.

You could say the Ne sub uses "Object Ne" (Ne operating within the context of objects) and "Object Ti" (Ti operating within the context of Ne perceptions of objects)

And that the Ti subs use "Field Ne (Ne operating within the context of Ti fields, treating fields as objects to perceive) and "Field Ti" (Ti based in applied fields and the coherence of the fields that surrounds them)

[tcaudilllg]

It is kind of difficult now because I don't have much pretension to authority. But when I get my degree in a few years that will all change: the concerted effort to depressure aristocracy into integrating the theory into the realm of "respected" study will begin; if they disagree with my (liberalism's) methods, then we'll just have to have a revolution. (and I'm confident the plebian wing of traditionalism will join reform and liberalism in its conduction, as they have historically done. Nor do I suspect conservatism will protest at all, because accurate logic is consistent with their philosophy)

Listen, if subtypes exist, that's great. It's just looking to me really unlikely at this point. I will say this: if someone can demonstrate to me a concrete difference in VI between people of the same IM and exertion types, then I'll believe subtypes exist; but if not, subtype theory is gonna have to go.

"Respected" or not, wrong is wrong. I don't mean to get anybody upset, but if the sun doesn't rotate about the earth, then it doesn't. There won't be a question of an "inquisition" response to the advent of the dual-type theory. We know how to play the game and our persecution of it will be ruthless.

[Creepy-Diana]

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