Discusion of Ne PoLR in ISFjs and ISTjs

[Ms. Kensington]

What are some examples of Ne polr?

Something I was thinking might be Ne polr: An ISFj was trying to explain a situation by repeating facts a few times, and I responded, yes, I understand that but I interpreted that differently, which she did not seem to take well at all. I think that was an example of Ne polr.

[Slacker]

My ISFj brother during his divorce.

First, he stayed in that marriage WAY too long because he was afraid of what terrible outcome there might be.

Then, when he finally filed for divorce, he said he didn't know what was going to happen. So I, without thinking, started listing all the things I could think of that could possibly happen. I finally stopped when I noticed how freaked out he looked.

[UDP]

What are some examples of Ne polr?

Something I was thinking might be Ne polr: An ISFj was trying to explain a situation by repeating facts a few times, and I responded, yes, I understand that but I interpreted that differently, which she did not seem to take well at all. I think that was an example of Ne polr.

Se creatives don't get that their opinions have no value at all to other people - "it doesn't really matter what you think". I forsee another throwdown with on in the future.

What pisses me off is when they withhold information because you "don't need to know it" -- if I'm on your team I need to know.

They frequently try to put themselves in authority positions, which makes it hard when they actually have to work with people. They do not exude a team atmosphere much, IME. (Not "team spirit", because ISTjs can do Fe stuff, but that is not really what I am talking about.)

[Elf]

Se creatives don't get that their opinions have no value at all to other people

Do you honestly think that other people are not interested in ISxj's opinions?

[FDG]

they seem to treat every possibility as necessary to examine in terms of eliminating. if there is a possibility and they are not sure wether it is going to happen or not, it drives them crazy. i gathered that.

Yeah - they are very bad at assessing risk.

ISTjs can act recklessly because of this, whereas ISFjs have a tendency to be over-cautious. Duals provide the necessary input in regard to both cases.

I think ISTj's generally underestimate the negative possibilities that can emerge from their course of action that right now seems to be certain (thinking-positivist-process)
ISFj's tend to overestimate the time and energy necessary to do typically intensively Ne tasks (studying, for example).(feeling-negativist-result)

[Elf]

What are some examples of Ne polr?

Someone's withholding information from people who are not particulary familiar to him/her; being openly sceptical towards various theories, researches, technological advancement; having dificulties in noticing some of the (hidden) motivations that are obvious to others; being (hyper)sensitive and acting defensive when someone criticizes his/her personal skills and abilities.

[discojoe]

What are some examples of Ne polr?

Something I was thinking might be Ne polr: An ISFj was trying to explain a situation by repeating facts a few times, and I responded, yes, I understand that but I interpreted that differently, which she did not seem to take well at all. I think that was an example of Ne polr.

Se creatives don't get that their opinions have no value at all to other people - "it doesn't really matter what you think". I forsee another throwdown with on in the future.

What pisses me off is when they withhold information because you "don't need to know it" -- if I'm on your team I need to know.

They frequently try to put themselves in authority positions, which makes it hard when they actually have to work with people. They do not exude a team atmosphere much, IME. (Not "team spirit", because ISTjs can do Fe stuff, but that is not really what I am talking about.)

What are you TALKING ABOUT? lmao.

[FDG]

What are some examples of Ne polr?

Something I was thinking might be Ne polr: An ISFj was trying to explain a situation by repeating facts a few times, and I responded, yes, I understand that but I interpreted that differently, which she did not seem to take well at all. I think that was an example of Ne polr.

Se creatives don't get that their opinions have no value at all to other people - "it doesn't really matter what you think". I forsee another throwdown with on in the future.

What pisses me off is when they withhold information because you "don't need to know it" -- if I'm on your team I need to know.

They frequently try to put themselves in authority positions, which makes it hard when they actually have to work with people. They do not exude a team atmosphere much, IME. (Not "team spirit", because ISTjs can do Fe stuff, but that is not really what I am talking about.)

What are you TALKING ABOUT? lmao.

OMG YOU'RE PLACING YOURSELF IN AN AUTHORITY POSITION OMG

[Creepy-bg]

I would care if either of your opinions had any value to me.

[discojoe]

What are some examples of Ne polr?

Something I was thinking might be Ne polr: An ISFj was trying to explain a situation by repeating facts a few times, and I responded, yes, I understand that but I interpreted that differently, which she did not seem to take well at all. I think that was an example of Ne polr.

Se creatives don't get that their opinions have no value at all to other people - "it doesn't really matter what you think". I forsee another throwdown with on in the future.

What pisses me off is when they withhold information because you "don't need to know it" -- if I'm on your team I need to know.

They frequently try to put themselves in authority positions, which makes it hard when they actually have to work with people. They do not exude a team atmosphere much, IME. (Not "team spirit", because ISTjs can do Fe stuff, but that is not really what I am talking about.)

What are you TALKING ABOUT? lmao.

OMG YOU'RE PLACING YOURSELF IN AN AUTHORITY POSITION OMG

haha

[PotatoSpirit]

Very useful thread.

They frequently try to put themselves in authority positions, which makes it hard when they actually have to work with people. They do not exude a team atmosphere much, IME. (Not "team spirit", because ISTjs can do Fe stuff, but that is not really what I am talking about.)

Can you explain in which way it is hard for us to work with people? I have always felt I can do that, but I have no real proof or feedback on it.

One big answer:
Relate
Do not relate

First, he stayed in that marriage WAY too long because he was afraid of what terrible outcome there might be.

So I, without thinking, started listing all the things I could think of that could possibly happen. I finally stopped when I noticed how freaked out he looked.

I think ISTj's generally underestimate the negative possibilities that can emerge from their course of action that right now seems to be certain

Someone's withholding information from people who are not particulary familiar to him/her; being openly sceptical towards various theories, researches, technological advancement; having dificulties in noticing some of the (hidden) motivations that are obvious to others;

being (hyper)sensitive and acting defensive when someone criticizes his/her personal skills and abilities.

[Park]

Do not relate

being (hyper)sensitive and acting defensive when someone criticizes his/her personal skills and abilities.

I 'm like that. Maybe it's an ISTp trait, related also to week Ne but in a position of dual-seeking.

I think ISTj's generally underestimate the negative possibilities that can emerge from their course of action that right now seems to be certain

I'm like that too.

Someone's withholding information from people who are not particulary familiar to him/her; being openly sceptical towards various theories, researches, technological advancement; having dificulties in noticing some of the (hidden) motivations that are obvious to others; being (hyper)sensitive and acting defensive when someone criticizes his/her personal skills and abilities.

I relate to every single word in this paragraph except maybe for the hidden motivations part.

[implied]

Someone's withholding information from people who are not particulary familiar to him/her; being openly sceptical towards various theories, researches, technological advancement; having dificulties in noticing some of the (hidden) motivations that are obvious to others; being (hyper)sensitive and acting defensive when someone criticizes his/her personal skills and abilities.

I relate to every single word in this paragraph except maybe for the hidden motivations part.

i relate with this a lot, too. not sure if it's polr or what, but i relate a bit.

[Jonathan]

What pisses me off is when they withhold information because you "don't need to know it" -- if I'm on your team I need to know.

They frequently try to put themselves in authority positions, which makes it hard when they actually have to work with people. They do not exude a team atmosphere much, IME. (Not "team spirit", because ISTjs can do Fe stuff, but that is not really what I am talking about.)

[quote="implied"]

Someone's withholding information from people who are not particulary familiar to him/her; being openly sceptical towards various theories, researches, technological advancement; having dificulties in noticing some of the (hidden) motivations that are obvious to others; being (hyper)sensitive and acting defensive when someone criticizes his/her personal skills and abilities.

All of these sound quite annoying, but I don't think that all or even most Se-creatives are actually like that (depending on which set of definitions you're using, of course). I think people on this forum generally think of Se-creatives in terms of some particularly close-minded or dictatorial people they know....people who may or may not actually be crea-Se.

In particular, Se-creatives are not necessarily against possibilities, research, technology, etc. If they were, they wouldn't get along so well with Gamma and Beta N types.

I think Ne as a vulnerable function has more to do with the fact that crea-Se types don't see uniqueness as relevant to their own mission...or put another way, if you criticized their particular choice or decision as not being unique enough, they would consider such a comment irrelevant or baffling....It's like, if someone's trying to accomplish something important or to do the right thing in a situation, who cares if it's unique or interesting or different?

Also, they would probably rather hear ideas that help them feel more confident that they see the path forward, rather than ones that lead in all kinds of directions towards endeavors that may not be profitable.

[Logos]

All of these sound quite annoying, but I don't think that all or even most Se-creatives are actually like that (depending on which set of definitions you're using, of course). I think people on this forum generally think of Se-creatives in terms of some particularly close-minded or dictatorial people they know....people who may or may not actually be crea-Se.

In particular, Se-creatives are not necessarily against possibilities, research, technology, etc. If they were, they wouldn't get along so well with Gamma and Beta N types.

I think Ne as a vulnerable function has more to do with the fact that crea-Se types don't see uniqueness as relevant to their own mission...or put another way, if you criticized their particular choice or decision as not being unique enough, they would consider such a comment irrelevant or baffling....It's like, if someone's trying to accomplish something important or to do the right thing in a situation, who cares if it's unique or interesting or different?

Also, they would probably rather hear ideas that help them feel more confident that they see the path forward, rather than ones that lead in all kinds of directions towards endeavors that may not be profitable.

That sounds rather trite and not much of a PoLR or like that would be any sort of PoLR at all. I think that it deals more with an inability to see an object as being more than how it exists concretely in or being something other than how some object is meant to be used. involves seeing the abstract essence of an object which allows for more general or alternative uses of objects things or ideas, but conversely suffers from inability to see its natural properties to just properly use or exert an object or work in a more concrete medium.

[Jonathan]

That sounds rather trite and not much of a PoLR or like that would be any sort of PoLR at all.

I guess the way I would put it is that the general view on this forum of what PoLR is way exaggerated overall. People tend to think of the PoLR as the area in which one is most sensitive, combatitive...and that basically it represents a sort of black hole. My understanding is that the PoLR (or vulnerable function) is really just an area that a person doesn't see as relevant, so that if one is criticized in that area, one has a reaction like "why is that person criticizing me for THAT?" or "why is that even important" or one is blind-sided and not even expecting that criticism, because one's awareness is lacking in that area.

Also, many people seem to think that people cannot appreciate/respect other people's use of the IM element that's one's vulnerable function. I believe that's a myth. People often do appreciate and respect the strengths of their super-ego and conflict types.

I think that it deals more with an inability to see an object as being more than how it exists concretely in or being something other than how some object is meant to be used. involves seeing the abstract essence of an object which allows for more general or alternative uses of objects things or ideas, but conversely suffers from inability to see its natural properties to just properly use or exert an object or work in a more concrete medium.

I understand where you're coming from. A lot of people seem to have a sort of fixed categorization of "the way objects should be used." They might severely criticize you for improvizing with what you have when you're caught in a situation where you don't have an umbrella, gloves, or whatever, and you decide to substitute something else. You seem to be attributing that to . In my experience, types are actually often very resourceful with objects, and tolerant of using objects in ways that don't match traditional categories.

In fact, types are often really great at coming up with "home remedies" that involve using things in a way that's different from how they were "intended" to be used. Because they're aware of the objects around them, they can see uses for them, whereas both Ne and Ni types may be too oblivious to even notice.

I do know that there are some people who are obsessed with using things only as they're "supposed" to be used. I'm not sure if that's a type-related thing or not, but it could be a combination of acc- and ...and also social awareness. I don't find that sort of attitude in Gamma SFs though.

[Park]

Someone's withholding information from people who are not particulary familiar to him/her; being openly sceptical towards various theories, researches, technological advancement; having dificulties in noticing some of the (hidden) motivations that are obvious to others; being (hyper)sensitive and acting defensive when someone criticizes his/her personal skills and abilities.

I relate to every single word in this paragraph except maybe for the hidden motivations part.

i relate with this a lot, too. not sure if it's polr or what, but i relate a bit.

I think it's mainly ISxx. (And maybe Fi>Fe as well.)

[discojoe]

Ne PoLR is pretty simply not liking change/randomness/chaos, and feeling anxious at the anticipation of them.

Most of the discussion on the subject in this topic is garbage.

[Phaedrus]

I guess the way I would put it is that the general view on this forum of what PoLR is way exaggerated overall. People tend to think of the PoLR as the area in which one is most sensitive, combatitive...and that basically it represents a sort of black hole. My understanding is that the PoLR (or vulnerable function) is really just an area that a person doesn't see as relevant, so that if one is criticized in that area, one has a reaction like "why is that person criticizing me for THAT?" or "why is that even important" or one is blind-sided and not even expecting that criticism, because one's awareness is lacking in that area.

Also, many people seem to think that people cannot appreciate/respect other people's use of the IM element that's one's vulnerable function. I believe that's a myth. People often do appreciate and respect the strengths of their super-ego and conflict types.

Correct and well put. Read and learn from Jonathan, folks.

[Jarno]

Most of the discussion on the subject in this topic is garbage.

As usual, when it comes to discussing functions. Most people are overconfident in this matter.

[Elf]

Someone's withholding information from people who are not particulary familiar to him/her; being openly sceptical towards various theories, researches, technological advancement; having dificulties in noticing some of the (hidden) motivations that are obvious to others; being (hyper)sensitive and acting defensive when someone criticizes his/her personal skills and abilities.

All of these sound quite annoying, but I don't think that all or even most Se-creatives are actually like that (depending on which set of definitions you're using, of course).

Well, since the things I mentioned are based on my own observations, they might be biased. If that's not type related, it's related to character.

In particular, Se-creatives are not necessarily against possibilities, research, technology, etc.

I didn’t say that Se-creatives are against possibilities, research and technology, they are just more sceptical towards it. They are the the ones who are the least likely to celebrate it.

I guess the way I would put it is that the general view on this forum of what PoLR is way exaggerated overall. People tend to think of the PoLR as the area in which one is most sensitive, combatitive...and that basically it represents a sort of black hole. My understanding is that the PoLR (or vulnerable function) is really just an area that a person doesn't see as relevant, so that if one is criticized in that area, one has a reaction like "why is that person criticizing me for THAT?" or "why is that even important" or one is blind-sided and not even expecting that criticism, because one's awareness is lacking in that area.

Also, many people seem to think that people cannot appreciate/respect other people's use of the IM element that's one's vulnerable function. I believe that's a myth. People often do appreciate and respect the strengths of their super-ego and conflict types.

My view about the POLR is similar.

[meatburger]

My understanding is that the PoLR (or vulnerable function) is really just an area that a person doesn't see as relevant, so that if one is criticized in that area, one has a reaction like "why is that person criticizing me for THAT?" or "why is that even important" or one is blind-sided and not even expecting that criticism, because one's awareness is lacking in that area.

Try having a Ti polr. When someone Critizises me for low Ti i do care. Its not just something i dont see as relevant its something i am truly shit at. Seems like the school kid that says the excuse to the teacher "oh i dont care about maths its stupid" when in reality they are just crappy at it. I see my POLR as an inability with thinking Logically and coherently, so im fucked if im gonna let others get away with thinking their POLR's aren't anything

Also, many people seem to think that people cannot appreciate/respect other people's use of the IM element that's one's vulnerable function. I believe that's a myth. People often do appreciate and respect the strengths of their super-ego and conflict types.

Agree with that 100% though.

You would think i would know exactly what an Ne polr looks like as i live with an ISTj and an ISFj. I have seen it occasionally. My mum can seem very black and white in her thinking. I tried to explain to my dad Philosophy and the abstract way it dealt with things was definately beyond his comprehension. Funnily enough my mum understood it ok though. My dad got visibly distressed and angry talking about it but mum seemed more receptive.

[Gilly]

Discomfort with ambiguity, pessimism in situations where the outcome is uncertain, ignoring "potential" of people or things because of disinterest or past experience, less willing to take risks that could potentially jeopardize personal stability despite positive prospects, less willing to accept/consider/legitimize new ideas unless they are totally convinced (ESI), less willing to "let people in" unless they are totally convinced that the other person will protect them emotionally (LSI).

[PotatoSpirit]

I see my POLR as an inability with thinking Logically and coherently, so im fucked if im gonna let others get away with thinking their POLR's aren't anything

You are fucked no matter what :-P

less willing to "let people in" unless they are totally convinced that the other person will protect them emotionally (LSI).

I relate to this too, but I thought it was just introversion...

[Gilly]

No, it's weak Fi and Ne with Super-Id Fe.

[Park]

No, it's weak Fi and Ne with Super-Id Fe.

Then I must be LSI, too.

[Elf]

less willing to accept/consider/legitimize new ideas unless they are totally convinced (ESI)

Oh, I relate to this 100%. I almost never agree with anyone right away.

Then I must be LSI, too.

Yeah, you could be an LSI.

[Gilly]

No, it's weak Fi and Ne with Super-Id Fe.

Then I must be LSI, too.

Well you're using Ti right there, so you just might be.

[Park]

No, it's weak Fi and Ne with Super-Id Fe.

Then I must be LSI, too.

Well you're using Ti right there, so you just might be.

Let me take another look at the magical mirror... it says lazy son of a bitch IP temperament mood-shifting asshole with Fi HA the desire to love and to be loved quality addict and craft perfectionist look up ISTp definitions online... Hmm... whom do I believe?

[leckysupport]

Ne PoLR is pretty simply not liking change/randomness/chaos, and feeling anxious at the anticipation of them.

Uncertainty/chaos/change and especially the anxious feeling of anticipation is pretty much all about .

These phrases reflect the process of generating an image. This image is never complete, but ever remains in a state of uncertainty, with hints of more connections and possible implications always arising. Categorical and unambiguous statements are absent, as these would reflect a state of certainty and finality that is foreign to Ni. Instead, phenomena are described as likelihoods ("inclined to," "tend," "perhaps," etc.).

describes the reflection of the external non-material world on the individual (foreseeing, imagining, anticipating; a sense of the meaningful).

[Gilly]

No, it's weak Fi and Ne with Super-Id Fe.

Then I must be LSI, too.

Well you're using Ti right there, so you just might be.

Let me take another look at the magical mirror... it says lazy son of a bitch IP temperament mood-shifting asshole with Fi HA the desire to love and to be loved quality addict and craft perfectionist look up ISTp definitions online... Hmm... whom do I believe?

Well you certainly made a nice show of your weak Fe right there.

There are certainly ways in which that same thing would manifest itself in an SLI. The core of it is weak ethics and intuition, so in principle there is no problem with an SLI agreeing with that.

[BlackCat]

The ESI suits me very well. I know I'm a gamma type. I know I'm an introvert. I know I'm an ESI basically. So don't question my type.

But I just can't really relate to PoLR Ne. My guess is the definitions I've been reading have been terrible. I can get ideas about things just fine... but these things are usually tangible things that I like, and they get expanded on in my mind. Other than that I'm not really concerned about them and I don't really get ideas. When I try to get ideas about something that doesn't really concern me that much these ideas are usually flawed. That's how I see it, but this just seems flawed, and it seems like there's stuff I'm missing about PoLR Ne.

Can someone enlighten me as to what PoLR Ne is like? Examples? Definitions? Thanks.

[Gilly]

In ESI, Ne PoLR typically manifests in light of dominant Fi: while they tend to have keen insights into people's personalities and general human relationships, they are also very single-minded about their judgements, and are often loathe to consider alternative perspectives or interpretations of other people's behaviors. They rarely question their judgements of people or their motivations, and once they have an idea about who a person is or what they are like, they seldom change it. They tend to have somewhat rigid ideas about how the world works. They usually have very specific ideas about how they would like people who are close to them to behave; however rather than enforcing "rules" on those close to them, they simply limit their friendships to people who they see as trustworthy and "good."

[BlackCat]

In ESI, Ne PoLR typically manifests in light of dominant Fi: while they tend to have keen insights into people's personalities and general human relationships, they are also very single-minded about their judgements, and are often loathe to consider alternative perspectives or interpretations of other people's behaviors. They rarely question their judgements of people or their motivations, and once they have an idea about who a person is or what they are like, they seldom change it. They tend to have somewhat rigid ideas about how the world works. They usually have very specific ideas about how they would like people who are close to them to behave; however rather than enforcing "rules" on those close to them, they simply limit their friendships to people who they see as trustworthy and "good."

Damn. Spot on. Thanks.

Keep the answers coming though. I want as much info as possible. You people know more than the socionics sites I've been going to has information wise.

[Azeroffs]

I think Ne is about seeing similarities of properties between objects. Like, when you look at an object you see how it can be like something similar. I'd also like to think Ne types are good at seeing alternative scenarios.

It's opposite of Se in that Se sees things as they are while Ne sees how it could be like something else.

Ne PoLR tends to result in problems seeing alternative scenarios. ESI might see someone being rude and become enraged. They might fail to see that the situation was different than they thought. XSI are quick to see how someone is wrong, but may fail to see beyond the apparent situation.

This is my take on it.

[BlackCat]

Ne PoLR tends to result in problems seeing alternative scenarios. ESI might see someone being rude and become enraged. They might fail to see that the situation was different than they thought. XSI are quick to see how someone is wrong, but may fail to see beyond the apparent situation.

This is my take on it.

If I were in that situation I would just focus on the fact that they were rude, and then ask if anything had been bothering them. There would be many thoughts about why the person was rude, but I wouldn't trust them as a complete answer. I'd rather have them just tell me in that situation rather than leave me to speculate.

As for failing to see how situations may differ... I know that they can differ but I usually trust what can happen in the here and now. If something differing is important to consider then I'd ask someone who was more informed on it than I, or if I had to speculate then I'd create a lot of situations in my head and be paranoid about them happening until what I was predicting could happen actually happens. Again, wanting to see for myself rather than to be left to speculate.

[BlackCat]

This is the thing, my ideas I get are only really flawed if I get abstract and expand beyond what we know that is tangible. If it's an idea about stuff that we know to be real or that is a factor that's laid out for me to expand on then I'm totally fine. See, I can't relate to being bad about getting ideas in general... it's just when you expand beyond what I know is when it gets a bit complicated (the thought usually doesn't even enter my head actually to expand beyond what I know).

[ArchonAlarion]

I think Ne is about seeing similarities of properties between objects. Like, when you look at an object you see how it can be like something similar. I'd also like to think Ne types are good at seeing alternative scenarios.

It's opposite of Se in that Se sees things as they are while Ne sees how it could be like something else.

I don't mind that description actually. What Ne sees is the latent abstract pieces and components that make up something. There are infinite components and you can arrange them in infinite ways. Reminds me of legos.

So Ne-ers have a collection of these latent component bits and Se-ers have a collection of actual memory of visceral physical impressions.

Theres more to this with Ni/Si mixed in but yeah.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I say Ni is just more individualistic than Ne. Ne-valuers just don't seem to understand my individuality all that well.

[BlackCat]

I say Ni is just more individualistic than Ne. Ne-valuers just don't seem to understand my individuality all that well.

Uh... What? How can this relate to PoLR Ne or answer my question?