LIE-LSI Mirage/Illusionary relations (ISTj & ENTj)

[lkdhf qkb]

Thanks for taking your time to clear things up. To make things clear on my side, I never said I didn't like LIEs or that they are a "bad type"(that would be a shocking generalisation). I appreciate a lot of LIEs and gammas in general.

@SojournInLimbo My problem was that the company was an "overly gamma environment"(like I'd estimate the share of alpha/beta/gamma/delta at respectively 5/25/50/20 percent from the people I typed) and there were no alphas to keep them 'in check'. The LIEs started acting like:



And not like :




So what they were doing: creating useless rivalries between departments just for the fun of it, favouring their friends when jobs had to be given, acting like positions were 'up for grabs' when everything was predetermined(I applied for jobs that didn't exist or were already given basically), pretending there is no hierarchy and that everyone is welcome to contribute to decisions but keeping people in the dark about any development unless you were in the 'inner circle'("You don't need to know"="I won't show my cards to you") even if it explicitely concerned your interests, breaking safety regulations, etc.... the word teamwork would have sounded like a joke to them probably. I mean, it went so far that even betas would distanciate.

In general, I have trouble with "quadral groups"(even my own), nothing gets done and people just act stupid. Last year, I had flatmates that were all alpha, and after two months I couldn't stand the constant emotional output as if my house was some kind of south american soap opera. In beta groups it's more like an episode of narcos.

I just got back from listening to my IEI friend talk about her various griefs for hours. I loved it. I really enjoy being the friend people know they can share their shit with. I love learning about them and their needs. I love being supportive for them. I love applying what they learn in my own life. AND THAT IS VERY GAMMA. It's in the wikisocion articles on gammas and how they prefer to talk about life.

I listened to my EII friend for an hour doing the same thing yesterday afternoon. 'I always feel better when I talk with you.'

I had a maybe 3 hours discussion on life and his relationships with my ESTJ friend in a messaging app LAST NIGHT.

I guess if you had a few gammas at your job that behaved the way yours did, you might think we're all business and abusive. We're not.

I don't relate to that at all ...that 'not listening' at all.

People have sought me ought for the last two decades to confide in me and get relief in sharing what they need to.

And at my job this summer, I am the one people come to when they don't go to HR, and I listen and commiserate, and then I talk with them about getting their needs met. And then I go do it.

And when I was teaching tech, the kids came to me when an aide was being coercive and denigrating to them because I paused more than the other teachers were and made special efforts to encourage them to speak up and get me if they couldn't handle something, including when I disagreed with their not correcting a teacher. I explained that it helps me when they share what they see and that the first person who could find a mistake I made and shared it with me during class would get to take the class toy home. And I disagreed that they needed to call me Ms. Nanashi's Lastname. The other teacher down the hall was SERIOUSLY upset by that. "They need to know who's the teacher."
'I'm almost six feet tall. They know who the teacher is.' I want them to understand how the ability really functions and to get that I have a first name, nanashi, and that I don't think I'm above them or their dictator.
I am more concerned with them developing self-advocacy skills, getting that I am human and thus fallible though good-intentioned and willing to grow and correct my behavior, knowing I'm their ally (not just their authoritarian leader), and they are co-creating the world we're in.

LIE are not Mr. Burns. We're shit at somethings, but we're VERY invested in peoples' lives and can be incredibly gregarious, loyal, supportive, and self-sacrificing. We don't only have characteristics of cruel, abusive leaders.

I have seen myself motivate and support people into excellence in their work or learning. AND A TON OF IT WAS VIA LISTENING TO THEM.

Well, that's great! I guess my remark was more meant as listening to their "ennemies" not their allies.

AND implying someone IS EVIL. When that's clearly corrupt information is enough to make a LIE dig in their heels and see you as someone on whom they cannot depend for counsel. Actions can be evil. People aren't. And when a delta person has worries, it's good to explain their concerns so that an LIE can implement safeguards to buffer the organization and people from those possibly impending threats, NOT to insinuate we should throw Beta person over the side into the ocean.

Maybe the problem is then that you stop to listen when someone says someone else is evil. I know we're talking hypothetically, but would you even care to ask why they think what they think? Most people actually can be convinced to change their minds.

We're very active people. I've seen EIE and LIE shift mountains in a day. That words are easy to say does not mean they lack power. Thoughts and ideas contribute to most of the happenings in the world. And discrediting a person entirely and acting like they are evil does mean they can become endangered, and it's reasonable to protect someone from shit ideas like that.

crusades, stonings, scarlet letter, angry mobs, etc

and also undercutting them in meetings just from bitterness....turning a cold shoulder toward them to passive aggressively indicate what you aren't saying....trying to make them feel unwelcome and dangerous.....intervening to keep them from getting responsibilities they are capable of at work or a promotion they earned...there are a lot of ways ideas that someone IS BAD can mean a person is going to trouble them.

I can understand what you mean, but I think projecting crusades and stonings on people's hate is a slippery slope(unless you live in Afghanistan). I mean, you can only overreact if you think that the next step is going to be a mobbing. That completely messes up your 'threat radar' and makes you react to something that only exists in your head. I.e. delusional.

But the gamma described in the work scenario was simply distancing themselves from a delta who denigrated the Beta. That's not AGGRESSION.

Good point. It still sounds bad because you imply that denigrating is an aggression but then you denigrate or evict the denigrator. In what way are you contributing something constructive? That's just perpetuating a vicious circle of violence.

"Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that" ~ Martin Luther King Jr.
&
“An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind.” Gandhi

I'm going to repeat myself: Do you ever wonder where the cliché of ruthless gammas comes from?

And I know gammas are portrayed as cut-throat when we are comfortable with OFTEN non-harmful firmness on reasonable policies where other types are uncomfortable being firm about them. That we are seen as aggressive and cut-throat is a bad portrayal. Sure, any person of any type can be cruel and selfish. Doesn't mean gammas are especiallly so. The literature points to gamma being a quadra focused on giving for the greater good. People respond to and remember the negative more strongly, so of course, we are portrayed incorrectly as the ever cold 'bad guys.' But that's just not realistic.

If that's true, I think gammas should leave determining what's the greater good to beta and delta NFs. SFs don't really grasp what's "greater or not" and NTs have trouble with determining "good and bad".