Changing your type would radically change how you think, most of your habits and peculiarities, what you like and dislike, all your intertype relationships and how you remember your memories. That's what's at stake.
Changing your type would radically change how you think, most of your habits and peculiarities, what you like and dislike, all your intertype relationships and how you remember your memories. That's what's at stake.
VI is a stupid concept -- especially static VI. As Jungian personality inventories have little to no explanatory power on the genetic basis of behavior (given that, yunno, Jung wasn't a neurologist, and neither were Augusta, Gulenko, Linda Berens or pretty much anyone who's fiddled with his ideas), physical appearance (which is upwards of 90% genetic) isn't likely to be predictive of type in any meaningful way.
So, no, your face wouldn't change. Your demeanor might though, if dynamic VI is actually accurate.
What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Could it be possible that VI skills are linked to particular functions use, implying people would be more or less efficient at it?
I for instance, without having any definitive opinion on the validity of VI, often realize that I notice pretty much (even unconsciously) patterns in people faces, but something really hard to explain (almost comes from the guts) like if there were only a rather large but finite amounts of "molds" (i.e templates) and yet leading to an infinite amount of phenotypes (external expressions, when taking minute details into account)
Those sound like basic observation skills to some (me included) but when sharing my views on that around me, I realized many people didn't agree or didn't see this at all...
“No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov
http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0
Last edited by Aleksei; 11-16-2010 at 11:42 AM.
What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Yeah i've thought of this too, but I think that they way we think also influences our face over time, the expressions etc, so maybe the subtle changes would result in different facial looks (ie the look of the face not particularly the genetic part of bone structure).
Some S types for instance with an interest in stereotypical N things can look a bit more 'intuitive' ime.
Guess that's the strange thing, as I understand it you typed as ENTP? I find it odd that someone could complete a questionnaire (however you were tested) and come out strong in T questions and weak in F questions, only to then realise they are weak in T related activities and also strong in F related activities. Do you test as a logical type on socionic tests also?
It's this sort of thing, which may of course be absolutely correct, but it makes me wonder about why...
eg... 'Type does not change' as far as i'm aware nothing in socionics is empirically validated so does what you say come from experience, or the laws of socionics or something I don't know about that perhaps you've read?
Eh...BTW.. i'm not really disputing what others have said from a POV of 'it's wrong'! i'm just curious as to the answers is all.
What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
I actually think intelligence tends to get conflated with in this community. Just look at, oh, any of the Ethical posters. (Marie and Silverchris are fairly current examples of Ethical types who write well put-together and intelligent posts. (I think, in Silverchris's case. I don't actually read your posts man, they're impenetrable for me ))
So basically you just said you were intelligent and capable of reasoning and applying your intellect Welcome to having an IQ > 120
As a total side note I think types with strong are actually able to clearly verbalise how they think, and mentally get from idea to idea. Their reasoning would be explicit in their own minds--much like how Ethical types are good at verbalising how they understand feelings/relationships.
As always, the above is just speculation built off theory, and I don't have any real-world reports to base it off, so don't use it as gospel or dogma
Cool.
It's always good to have a dual(s) around to keep the DS (Ti) topped up.
Ti in the leading position (esp ISTjs) can be quite strict and rigid, which from what i've read goes well the the particular ethical aspect of ENFjs.
But yeah, the P thing causes problems, and it's dead easy to get confused with the T/F depending on eg mood, personal circumstance (eg having to be 'logical' in a particular environment) mood - a T type having to worry about personal relations.
Glad you got your type nailed.
Do people change types or subtypes?
If so, how does it happen?
A change to quasi-identical seems possible, as the powerful demonstrative function could simply clarify strongly to become the new lead ego function. What the person was ignoring before become something that they embrace in their new self. They in turn, choose to reject their former style of creativity, as their old ego becomes subconscious. Their weak suggestive function becomes their new vulnerability, their "hidden agenda" is repressed to become the role function.
However, do any of the "official" Socionics experts, like Augusta and so on, actually believe that type shifting occurs?
Could what looks like a change in personality type be a change in subtype instead?
There's like a 10 min window before you are conceived where you can change your type/subtype but the option is disabled once you begin. Choose wisely.
ILI (FINAL ANSWER)
Someone else just started a thread asking the same question. You absolutely cannot change your sociotype or your subtype. Alot of people on here would say that you can change your subtype, but I disagree. I've known too many Enfj's to know I can't pull that off. The high energy coupled with their ability to conflate and is so foreign to me, I really wouldn't know where to begin. I would think anyone who tries to be a different subtype would come off as silly and clueless as to who they are.
Enneagram type is another one that can't change but for a different reason. It's like comparing nature vs. nurture, your sociotype is purely biological while your Etype was solidified when you were a child and didn't have a foundation (ego) to choose or understand why you have subjective feelings to begin with. This is the auto-erotic stage; you can't make up your mind about something as complex as personality if you operate on the level of an animal. If I could've done that, I would've chosen to be an 8 I think, hence my personal goal in life. Does this make any sense? Or do you really want to waste energy trying to be something you're not?
EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1
As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962
I think types change people.
I think types change people.
I dont think changing type is possible, according a great importance to your ego dont make you another type imo.
But perhaps changing subtype is something wich can happen. Probably sx introvert , who seem to be generally more attracted to demonstrate their "strenght" if ive understand, perhaps more frequently use their first extraverted function ?
"The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusion."
-- Maurice Chapelain
What would be the point of socionics existing at all if your type could shift? You realize all of the intertype relations would too... so suddenly your dual would turn into your conflictor?
Last edited by Codie; 09-22-2011 at 12:55 AM.
@walker31
so that you know who's your new conflictor
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
Originally Posted by Abbie
Type doesn't change. Never! Subtype can change, but it can take several years and requires a lot of work and probably a life crisis or something.
Gulenko has written someting about DCNH subtype change:
http://socionics.kiev.ua/articles/types/podtip-95/
Originally Posted by machine translation
I wish I could give some kind of evidence against this. I feel sure that the answer is no, but I can't prove it. I can tell you that when I was younger I used to read dozens of self-help books as I tried to change my own behavior, and I tried so many things that didn't work.
For instance, it always bothered me that I had trouble getting tasks done. I could start things but not finish them. Meanwhile, I envied other people who scheduled their time and finished everything they started (this is associated with Rationals - I don't mean that it's always 100% true, but in general). I would have tried to become a Rational because it seemed like their lives went more smoothly in so many ways, but I couldn't. I felt like they were able to get more done instead of just wandering dreamily around to random interests the way I did.
I've never known anyone who totally changed their personality. However, there are people who, for instance, embrace a new religion, and they might disconnect from family members and other people they used to know, because they believe something that is totally different from what they used to believe. This happens. Sometimes people leave behind a group of people they used to know, or they move away and leave behind the country where they used to live, and things like that. They might decide that they disagree with a lot of the beliefs and the culture of their former group of friends or their former country.
It's possible to change the content of your beliefs, to change *what* you believe. But I agree with socionics and other personality typing systems that say you can't change your *way* of processing information.
People can change their personalities drastically if they have a traumatic brain injury. We hope this doesn't happen often. Maybe someday they will invent a way to change our own brains deliberately, but I myself don't like the idea of people making permanent changes to their physical bodies - there are so many ways it can go wrong.
Still, you can meditate and focus in your mind, trying to 'look for' all the various different functions. I've done that myself. I've tried to imagine or notice the various functions operating. This can be interesting and I'd encourage anyone to do it and have fun exploring. I'd write about it in detail but I haven't done it a lot lately and I have some other problems that make this difficult to do. But I'd love to meditate and observe the functions if I could.
*points to signature*
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
@siuntal
SHH DUN LET THE CAT OUT OF THE BAG
@N1cole
I believe personality cannot change either, but behaviours that leverage on personality differences can highly benefit us. For example, you may need to find a way to profit by wondering around randomly doing what interests you (e.g. blog your findings, video log it, take pictures, write commentaries, anything that's got to do with a wealth of experience and knowledge in various fields that may not be completely related, i.e. breadth not necessarily depth). Perhaps, find some kind of employment that does not enforce the need for schedule (only goals).
When my company is up, people like you will be employed in such manner: no obligation to work at office, free work schedule, goal-based (not time based) projects. The key is to make you want to complete as many projects as possible so that you can start new ones, while allowing you to even disembark on your current one if you see greater potential in another (then we can leave the old project to another team, possibly some IJ/EJ one).
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
Originally Posted by Abbie
Reuben, if you don't change your profile pic to a non wolf, I'm afraid you're just going to have to be confused with Lobos. Forever!
Re OP,
Chemical changes, such as medications and other drugs, can alter which information one can easily access/process. Such that a person on drugs/medications can appear to be a different type than what they would be off the drugs. But off the drugs, the chemical changes change again, altering which information is now easily accessed and processed.
In this kind of case, the person has missed out in obtaining their most useful information during the time they were on the drug/medication. And so it's almost like a piece of their life was wasted...in terms of information gathering.
A personal example,
The first week I was on Wellbutrin, I had primarily Se info available to me. I was also unware of potential consequences of my actions, and had only one viewpoint (rather than my usual jumping around quickly between points of view). It was like a mini-vacation for me...which wasn't realized as such until after that initial week, when the medication seemed to stop working.
The Great Cocktail Experiment I was subjected to was a complete blur in my life. At one point I was completely zombified. Tv went to fast for me to follow. Someone would ask me a question, and it would take me time to figure out that someone had said something....that they had said it to me....that it had been a question...what the question was....what the answer was (i could barely handle yes/no questions...nothing more complex than that would be processed)...and then finally answering. By this time, the person had already left or moved on to something else. It literally took me minutes just to answer simple yes/no questions.
A friend of mine had to be hospitalized because he was on a medication that prevented him from accessing and processing his usual info. An emergency had happened, he wasn't able to respond because he had nothing to draw on...the available info of the situaton was not something he had experience dealing with, and so had no "stock" to draw from. This created a downward anxiety loop to such a degree that he submitted himself to the hospital psyche ward.
And finally, many people do recreational drugs BECAUSE the drugs will alter their mind in such a way that it opens them (temporarily) to different info and different processing.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
That's an interesting. I became hypomanic while on fluoxetine (aka prozac), and probably looked to the outside world as some sort of insane caricature of (you know that guy called Robin Williams? Yeah, he has manic episodes; I was like that). Risperdal also zombified me and apparently dicked around with my memory such that I can't remember ever having been on it.
I know I fall into something that seems like an EP-like state (enhanced focus on goals, torrent of ideas, big increase in working memory such that intractable problems fall together like a jigsaw, easier flow states; the usual stimulant profile) when I'm on a high dosage of good old caffeine.
Know I'm mistyped?
Why I am now.
Why I was , once.
DISCLAIMER
The statements expressed in this signature may not necessarily reflect reality.
Bingo! Totally agree. Never knew what's the point in typing oneself under the influence to begin with.
Bwahaha!A friend of mine had to be hospitalized because he was on a medication that prevented him from accessing and processing his usual info [...]This created a downward anxiety loop to such a degree that he submitted himself to the hospital psyche ward.
Some days I'm a duck. Other days I'm a peanut. Some days I eat peanut butter and in other days I want something else.
So days I'm excited and stimulated, temperament changes,
other days not.
alright, yo, yoz, peace out dawg.
When I'm on even extremely low dosages of antidepressants, I become manic. I also become extremely friendly, and also inappropriately sexual. When I used to take St. John's Wort, I would walk into work and smile and wave and say Hi to everyone in a very friendly way, and during that time period, while trying to guess my own type, I decided I was an ISFP, because I seemed very people-oriented.
It also caused me to look directly into the eyes of everyone for long periods of time with a blank expression on my face. I would do this while walking down the street or in other public places and looking at strangers. Intense prolonged eye contact is a sign of drug use, not personality type.
I would happily talk to anyone randomly for long periods of time, but I was also emotionally numb and could not feel anything subtle, just this blank, blind, continuous, meaningless cheerful mood. I felt shallow. It also made me much more extraverted, and I would blurt out whatever thoughts were on my mind without censoring them. It would have been very difficult for anyone to guess my type during that time period.
So in the 'schmystem of schmubtypes,' I would add: drug free subtype, or drug using subtype. Those would be temporary subtypes, of course. If someone is on drugs, it changes their behavior so drastically that it does indeed become hard to recognize them.
@N1cole
@Absurd
ME TOO!!I really like chicken.
@Mune
Who is this lobos guy? Is he very predatory and likes the taste of raw meat? He competes with my precious resources
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
Originally Posted by Abbie
Have you been tested for Bipolar? The fact that you became manic while using antidepressants is a red flag. If you are Bipolar, you absolutely cannot take any kind of antidepressants, it will make symptoms much worse. If you do have this condition, you should be on anti-seizure meds. you wouldn't believe how effective they are.
Another thing to consider is most people identify their illness as being essentially who they are. Depression in particular is the ultimate deceiver. Once you find the right meds. you would be surprised at how you perceive the world once you're healthy.
EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1
As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962
It's been hypothesized that the secret to type-changing lies within the center of the earth's inner core. Best get out your mining helmets and hit the dirt, science can't wait another day!
Galen you had to go out and say it didn't.
THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE OUR BUSINESS SECRET, BETWEEN YOU AND ME ONLY
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
Originally Posted by Abbie
Yea and I had bipolar before, it felt very similar to what N1cole is describing. Don't get yourself diagnosed, just lead a balanced life.
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
Originally Posted by Abbie
People like to unnecessarily over-complicate things, I may look like one subtype depending on my mood. Im just a SLE.