Me

[Ezra]

I can see why you initially scored INTJ on tests before deciding upon ENTj.

MBTI tests, for the record.

I think astralsilky realised this, which is why it is "INTJ" and not "INTj".

[Ezra]

For instance, if I am dominant or creative, that means that I also prefer to . Can you make a case for that?

No, I'm afraid not.

And is the ENTj's 8th function, which I personally call the "hobby" or "fun" function.

I see. That makes sense now.

[astralsilky]

I can see why you initially scored INTJ on tests before deciding upon ENTj.

MBTI tests, for the record.

I worked for an ENTj once for a long time. We clashed all the time but eventually earned each other's deepest respect because of our differing yet legitimate aptitudes (etc). Even though, we truly conflicted on so many things on a philosophical level, it was ridiculous. He also tested as an ENTj, by the way. Anyhow, I can't see how he had an "Si POLR" for example. He was the kind of guy who - according to Kiersey's model - fit the Fieldmarshal role well. He was most interested in networking administrative processes and always eager to "make money." That was his drivign motivation in life - he wanted to ever increase his financial standing, even after attaining a large amount of wealth through an assortment of creative means (creative, as in, creative SCHEDULING and organization and utilization of people they know in order to maximize profits with minimal work on their end, other than planning). He loved the finer things in life - luxuries and such - but primarily for their social impact.

That doesn't sound much like an ENTj.

No? Is there a type you think it does sound like?

The INTjs I've known also can enjoy luxuries, and naturally, enjoy making money and excelling ~ but they seemed more interested in having a variety of experiences of a unique nature. Both types seemed to be "interested in the world" - but ENTjs, based on how well they are fitting in and succeeding in that world so as to "win the game" and the INTjs, perhaps to stimulate their inner world and complex thinking and maybe even sensation-seeking, for something "different." The INTjs were more interested in personal mastery regardless of how society views them; but ENTjs, personal mastery only insofaras they get that recognition from society that they have "achieved" - that is how it appears, anyway.

Again, I think you misunderstand ENTj's drives. "Recognition from society" is a very low priority. What you are describing is a classical Enneagram 3, the "achiever", which some people say can also be an ENTj, and I agree in terms of behavior, but in terms of motivations, which is what you are referring to, the best fit is ENFj - at least those I call "yuppie" ENFjs.[/quote]

I could see that, due to dominant Fe. But this fellow ... let's say he was in fact an ENFj, not ENTj. I don't know ~ he liked to think he was suave, but I'm not sure he was well-adept at how he handled people? He had no issue with making unprofessional, angry scenes ... hmm, maybe another point for ENFj!

These are some trends which I have not only read about from other theoretical models, but truly have witnessed among individuals I've known well from both types (some of whom also test so). Not sure if this data is useful or interesting enough for you in your search.

I'm not really in a search regarding my type, as I mentioned in the first post. And, again, I think you misunderstand ENTj's basic motivations, and that some of the people you have typed as such aren't really of that type.

That could very well be the case. Thanks for your input.

[Expat]

But this fellow ... let's say he was in fact an ENFj, not ENTj. I don't know ~ he liked to think he was suave, but I'm not sure he was well-adept at how he handled people? He had no issue with making unprofessional, angry scenes ... hmm, maybe another point for ENFj!

That's one of the most confusing things in the way socionics traits are defined.

ENTjs have Fe role and are emotion-creating. That means that they aim at being polite and are careful not to be rude, keeping a neutral emotional tone, or slightly positive, at all times. They will, however, often be perceived as insensitive when they make Te remarks with little regard for the Fe atmosphere.

ENFjs have dominant Fe and are construct-creating. That means that they are naturally attuned to external emotional states, however, they will steer it using their own Fe. Those "unprofessional, angry scenes" are a result of being construct-creating using Fe to "mobilize" those who need to be mobilized.

[Gilly]

I've met Expat in person, and I will say that I can't imagine someone being much more clearly a Socionics LIE. I won't go into detail ATM, because I'm hung over and tired but I will say that you can see dominance clearly in Expat in a few things he does here.

Look at the post above mine. Notice how, before he explains something, he states it.

"ENTjs have x. This means y."

He clarifies in everybody's mind reading the post that "these are facts as far as I know them," then goes on to offer an explanation of those facts.

Essentially Expat will state a fact, explain the phenomenon, and then explains it relevance. If you watch a clear Ti-ego type explain something like this, they will jump almost directly to the implications of the topic they are talking about to the conversation at large and then explain the "why" later. A possible Ti version of Expat's first paragraph might look like this:

"ENTjs usually try to be polite and unoffensive by keeping a neutral or positive tone at all times. However, they are often perceived as insensitive when they use Te with little regard for Fe. This is due to their Fe Role and being Emotion-Creating.

The point is that Te types, first and foremost, want you to know and understand "the facts," ie the objective parts of reality that give merit to what they're saying, before they tell you what is relevant to the discussion, whereas Ti types want you to know what you need to know with regards to the conversation and, if it makes sense to say them, learn the rest of the facts "later."

Anyway, that's just an observation of his posting by using some tendencies I've noticed. Not necessarily something to take seriously if you don't understand what I'm getting at. Regardless, I think you can tell Expat's Te>Ti-ness pretty easily. Personally I think his values are clearly Te/Fi; anyone suggesting a Beta type needs to go back and think harder. I would never say that Expat was Si-leading or secondary from what I saw of him IRL; Si PoLR fits well. I would also rule out ILI by VI from real-life experience, but in terms of what we see of him here I think he's a bit categorical and declarative for an ILI.

[Hitta]

ESTp or ISTj... thinking ISTj

[Expat]

According to your version of socionics, ISTj would make sense.