Differences between ISFj-ESI and ISFp-SEI

[Slacker]

Not showing emotion is not the same thing as not feeling emotion.

[mfckr]

Not showing emotion is not the same thing as not feeling emotion.

Good luck getting an Fi PoLR to readily understand that.

[The Ineffable]

Granted, I can't actually measure empirically whether an individual's external objective symptoms of fear necessarily coincide with an internal subjective experience of fear on their part. But I would have little reason to assume that such experiences aren't occurring given said physiological data. Also, this is what self-reports are for—ask a person, and they'll probably tell you what they're experiencing.

But the measurements are not all the same. People are very different, rarely one can find two with the same psychological or somatic reactions. Of course psychologists can classify them in different classes, and give them generic terms, but that does not tell that all people feel similarly.

That is what I base my conclusion on - and it is not even "my" conclusion - people depict the same experiences differently, sometimes radically different. And I'm not talking about differences in choices of words.

This is part of what underpins our capacities for empathy, too (with humans and other creatures). We perceive (and sometimes mirror) emotional cues similar or complementary to our own, and thereby infer generally accurate assumptions about what the other is feeling.

Yeah that is why there is conflict and misunderstanding all around, right? That is why Duality, and Conflict, and Super-Ego and so on exist...

Or maybe they hide it well and you're just not noticing it?

To some they come naturally, you can tell that based on their history and world view.

Not showing emotion is not the same thing as not feeling emotion.

Yes, but not feeling some emotions doesn't mean hiding them.

Do you people actually believe everyone feels the same? That this society is so uniform and all individuals are so identical? (in feeling and perception) Where do you live, what make you think so? This is something totally new to me... the closest theory reminding me of this uniformity is the communist ideology.

Good luck getting an Fi PoLR to readily understand that.

I'm surprised that you say it in this context... but thanks for supporting my point.

[Beautiful sky]

Notice how you only bolded the part that fit into your self-serving need for attention? I clearly did not attack Se or Se's, I just stated I'm often put off by reading the descriptions of Se dominants.
Also, I can like and dislike whomever I want. My dislike of you, for instance, does not make me prejudice, I just don't like you as a individual. Some things are deeper than "type"

You're stating your prejudice here again. And I highlighted your entire sentence to be sure that you don't miss that. Se is a function that all of us have. Knowing that, do you cringe at yourself? You should start just to keep things from not being hypocrite.

[anndelise]

You're stating your prejudice here again. And I highlighted your entire sentence to be sure that you don't miss that. Se is a function that all of us have. Knowing that, do you cringe at yourself? You should start just to keep things from not being hypocrite.

Marie is referring to descriptions of an IE.
You are referring to people with an IE.

Descriptions are not the same thing as people.
Not all descriptions are accurate.

[Beautiful sky]

Marie is referring to descriptions of an IE.
You are referring to people with an IE.

Descriptions are not the same thing as people.
Not all descriptions are accurate.

Yeah, but if descriptions are of people then they already apply to us; all people have a little of each other in our selves. Se is either in the conscious or subconscious; to cringe at a function as though it were one you loath is to say you cringe at yourself; either your conscious or your subconscious.

You and I will arrive at the same answer from differing perspectives

Me, from internal model of conceptualized people; and you from external perception.

[anndelise]

Yeah, but if descriptions are of people then they already apply to us; all people have a little of each other in our selves.

If the descriptions are not accurate, do they actually apply to the people?

[Beautiful sky]

If the descriptions are not accurate, do they actually apply to the people?

I honestly don't think she's talking about whether these descriptions are accurate or not; she is referring to any description of Se. She just doesn't like Se as though it were another country she doesn't like not because she knows people of that country but as thought the model of that country is a "bad" country. It's a prejudice of something not known but unnecessarily projected fear upon.

[anndelise]

I honestly don't think she's talking about whether these descriptions are accurate or not; she is referring to any description of Se. She just doesn't like Se as though it were another country she doesn't like not because she knows people of that country but as thought the model of that country is a "bad" country. It's a prejudice of something not known but unnecessarily projected fear upon.

The part of Marie which you quoted: "in the same way that I often cringe at Se dominant descriptions"
She is referring to descriptions.
In particular, descriptions of Se as a dominant function.

And then she specified: "because I don't value it, not because Se base observations portray a negative individual"
Here she clearly stated that it's not that she sees Se base people as negative...
She just doesn't value what the descriptions describe. Which means, she allows herself to feel a like/dislike towards things she values, and things she doesn't. (You know, Fi.)

So she can still like Se dominant people, but dislike the descriptions of Se as a dominant function.

If the descriptions she is reading are inaccurate, then there is no conflict.

If the descriptions she is reading are accurate, then she's saying that the people are not negative, she basically does not relate to them..the opposite of relating. This is in full keeping with Fi...no matter which location the IE is in.

Nothing she has said in this regard is hypocritical.

[Beautiful sky]

The part of Marie which you quoted: "in the same way that I often cringe at Se dominant descriptions"
She is referring to descriptions.
In particular, descriptions of Se as a dominant function.

And then she specified: "because I don't value it, not because Se base observations portray a negative individual"
Here she clearly stated that it's not that she sees Se base people as negative...
She just doesn't value what the descriptions describe. Which means, she allows herself to feel a like/dislike towards things she values, and things she doesn't. (You know, Fi.)

So she can still like Se dominant people, but dislike the descriptions of Se as a dominant function.

If the descriptions she is reading are inaccurate, then there is no conflict.

If the descriptions she is reading are accurate, then she's saying that the people are not negative, she basically does not relate to them..the opposite of relating. This is in full keeping with Fi...no matter which location the IE is in.

Nothing she has said in this regard is hypocritical.

Ann, you're reading into this way too much; she used to run away when Dolphin showed up... blatantly saying "BYE", oh gotta go because someone with Se base is here. It was crazy watching her dislike or be in fear of someone because they had Se base.

[anndelise]

Ann, you're reading into this way too much; she used to run away when Dolphin showed up... blatantly saying "BYE", oh gotta go because someone with Se base is here. It was crazy watching her dislike or be in fear of someone because they had Se base.

And you used to have me on ignore because you didn't like me...or didn't like my Ne base. It 'made your life difficult', as you put it.
But you're going to criticize her for doing similar?

[mfckr]

But the measurements are not all the same. People are very different, rarely one can find two with the same psychological or somatic reactions. Of course psychologists can classify them in different classes, and give them generic terms, but that does not tell that all people feel similarly.

That is what I base my conclusion on - and it is not even "my" conclusion - people depict the same experiences differently, sometimes radically different. And I'm not talking about differences in choices of words.

Yes, I stipulated this as well in my reply. Of course people are complex, and of course they experience many different shades of feelings. But to say that whole sociotypes don't experience an entire basic category of feeling…? Sounds like a stretch to me.

Yeah that is why there is conflict and misunderstanding all around, right? That is why Duality, and Conflict, and Super-Ego and so on exist…

Sure, I definitely believe that intertypes are a factor in influencing empathy and theory of mind between different people.

To some they come naturally, you can tell that based on their history and world view.

?

I'm surprised that you say it in this context... but thanks for supporting my point.

Stated another way, Fi PoLR implies something of an exaggerated Fe POV… Fe in a basic and primitive form says, "if a feeling isn't visible, then the feeling didn't happen."

[anndelise]

Uhh, the liking of post 143 was done unintentionally and is in error. If i could take it off, i would.

[Marie84]

You're stating your prejudice here again. And I highlighted your entire sentence to be sure that you don't miss that. Se is a function that all of us have. Knowing that, do you cringe at yourself? You should start just to keep things from not being hypocrite.

Red Herring

I honestly don't think she's talking about whether these descriptions are accurate or not; she is referring to any description of Se. She just doesn't like Se as though it were another country she doesn't like not because she knows people of that country but as thought the model of that country is a "bad" country. It's a prejudice of something not known but unnecessarily projected fear upon.

Strawman

Ann, you're reading into this way too much; she used to run away when Dolphin showed up... blatantly saying "BYE", oh gotta go because someone with Se base is here. It was crazy watching her dislike or be in fear of someone because they had Se base.

Mind Projection Fallacy

3 logical fallacies in one thread, I think you made a bingo

The part of Marie which you quoted: "in the same way that I often cringe at Se dominant descriptions"
She is referring to descriptions.
In particular, descriptions of Se as a dominant function.

And then she specified: "because I don't value it, not because Se base observations portray a negative individual"
Here she clearly stated that it's not that she sees Se base people as negative...
She just doesn't value what the descriptions describe. Which means, she allows herself to feel a like/dislike towards things she values, and things she doesn't. (You know, Fi.)

So she can still like Se dominant people, but dislike the descriptions of Se as a dominant function.

If the descriptions she is reading are inaccurate, then there is no conflict.

If the descriptions she is reading are accurate, then she's saying that the people are not negative, she basically does not relate to them..the opposite of relating. This is in full keeping with Fi...no matter which location the IE is in.

Nothing she has said in this regard is hypocritical.

yes

[ArchonAlarion]

That chick seems EII to me. Spazzy Ne bullshit going on in her eyes. Sounds infantile, too—she reminds me of how Maritsa talks.

Definitely EII.

[Rim]

In my experience: In a nutshell: SEI's can be rather random and tend to always be thinking of others comfort and are less judgmental [at least out loud]. On the other hand, ESI's are stricter and much more likely to be judgmental and may not let something go if they were hurt "too much" by you.

Some other differences I have noticed are: an SEI will go shopping with you and randomly go "oh X would really like that." While ESI's if they're shopping for someone else will have a tendency of already thinking about it before they go shopping. SEI's also may try to pay for dinner if they sense that you're having a bad week/day, while ESI's tend to think that you should just learn to deal with the pain, however on occasion they may take you out to "celebrate" something, but I've never had one pay for a meal when I was feeling down. SEI's will be much more open to hearing how your day went [even if it was a negative day.] While ESI's will generally cut you off as soon as you start getting negative, some are much more tactful at this then others. SEI's tend to not be very scheduled, although they may stick to a to-do list every now and then. ESI's tend to be very organized and scheduled, and often expect others to be just as much as they are and they will get stressed out if you aren't. When an SEI goes to an event they will tend to seek out other people to talk to, while an ESI will often be very awkward and hope and pray that someone will approach them, and if someone does they will in a very polite manner talk to them. [This is a weird one, and I'm not sure if it's true, but:] SEI's tend to get along with all ages, especially those young at heart, while ESI's generally like only those their age or over, they tend to go for more "mature" people. One that I knew only had my brother, I and another friend that were her age at the wedding, and everyone else seemed to be fourty and above. It was really odd. . .

Hopefully this helps.

Also, the difference between duality and conflict is with conflicters you tend to always be stressed out and in the end you're wondering how you can change yourself to make yourself more agreeable to them. While with duals you tend to just go with the flow and be yourself.

<.< I call bullshit. I'm MBTI ISFP (certain of that now) :\ and I value Fi-Te Se-Ni, this essentially makes me ESI and I'm not hyper judgmental or structured in any way. In fact I'm more of a go with the flow kind of guy who doesn't even schedule the next morning, let along the entire day lmao. I'm ISFP for fracks sake the freaking concrete utilitarian composer artisan. What the yotz are you talking about? that description sounds like some SJ Si-Ne Fe-Ti ISFJ concrete cooperator.

[Esaman]

The post is good. Issue is in your typing.
I think no one will be interested in helping you mixing socionics with MBTI.

[whittgenstein]

I am the opposite of Rim; I'm (prettysureI'm) SEI but relate more to the ESI side of that post.

[Esaman]

I am the opposite of Rim; I'm (prettysureI'm) SEI but relate more to the ESI side of that post.

1. That is not much to go on on.
2. That is the opposite of what you said in the first post.
3. Who is Rim?

[whittgenstein]

1. That is not much to go on on.
2. That is the opposite of what you said in the first post.
3. Who is Rim?

1. In retrospect, I'm not sure what I wanted to achieve from my post. Some clarification? Similar experiences? Just showing Rim he wasn't alone? Probably all of the above.
2. That was my first post.
3. Rim was the first poster in this conversation. We are different people with different types.

[draon9]

It's very easy, if you are really ILE: an SEI will listen endlessly to your theoretical Ne-ramblings, and give you the impression they understand and agree, even when they don't. Your ramblings will be met with disapproval by ESIs, and at best they will argue with you and constantly disagree with most of what you say, opposing it with their own perspective, which you think is rather narrow-minded, outdated and makes you feel they haven't understood a single bit of what you said, that they didn't get the point.

ETA: another thing, SEIs, although not as expressive as ESEs, might laugh boisterous when they think something is very funny. ESIs are more likely to chuckle, or just smile, not even baring their teeth.

ISFp are fluid and esi are masochist.

[consentingadult]

ISFp are fluid and esi are masochist.

You think this is helpful information for an ILE who is trying to make out the difference? I mean, ILEs are not into behavior that would expose someone else's masochism, whatever their type ;-)

[Beautiful sky]

Fi base types are more compassionate

[consentingadult]

Fi base types are more compassionate

Depends on your definition of compassionate. E.g. when it come to giving money to homeless beggars, SEIs are, in general, a lot more compassionate than ESIs.

[Shiver]

I wish the whole "humanist / moral paragon" thing with Fi would just die already. Being a certain type does not make one an inherently better person. -_-

[ashlesha]

I wish the whole "humanist / moral paragon" thing with Fi would just die already. Being a certain type does not make one an inherently better person. -_-

u wont be a moral person if u keep it up with the jelousy, sweaty (:

[Beautiful sky]

u wont be a moral person if u keep it up with the jelousy, sweaty (:

ESIs (ISFjs) are aware primarily of the attitudes of others and the objects that cause certain attitudes and responses.

[Beautiful sky]

She is right. I am ISFp, and my mother is ISFj.

I enjoy making and hearing a lot of jokes. My mother never has made a joke and she laughs about normal everyday happenings, while I laugh at things that are more far-out and unreal. That is the Ne PoLR in action. Random(me) vs. Static/Normal(her) I am more smiley and jovial than her. I rarely yell about anything, but if I do, I scream and just get furious. My mother enjoys to raise her voice if she is challenged in any way.

She hates to discuss sex, homosexuality, or anything like that because discussing such topics out loud is just "bad". I see no problem with it, because sex and homosexuality are real topics. Very very very moralistic woman, she isn't afraid to voice her opinion on issues of morality. I have seen a lot of Fi PoLR from ILE's and I know my mother would lay the smackdown on them if she heard them. I'm more accepting of people overall also. I will make friends with everyone, my mother chooses her friends very very cautiously.

Anything else, I'm here. I know my mom very well.

It is an Fi thing to be choosy about people. It has nothing to do with acceptance of others it's about depth

At large these are good observations, but I don't agree that SEIs tend to be always thinking about other people's comfort. They are not, they are much more focused on their own comfort, but they'll allow others to hop on the bandwagon and they can even be pleased if someone expresses appreciation for this comfort. Thinking about other people's comfort is more of an ESE thing. (also, when other people benefit from their Si, SEIs will feel appreciated for who they are, ESEs will feel appreciated for what they do)

The thing about ESIs making themselves very hard to approach is very true. It can be even worse: when they are approached, they might react in such a way that it results into rejection of the attempt. My gut feeling is that ESIs apply high standards (even those that have nothing to offer themselves), and you really need to persist in the effort to get anywhere.

This being selfish and self involved is what I mean by less compassionate

I see all IJs as exacting, in their own way... XSIs are more obvious with it, whereas XIIs will just watch you do things the "wrong" way, then redo it in their preferred way after you go away...

Yes I can be exacting over some things. When someone tells me that they want a relationship with me but hints at just having sex with me there's no consistency and it's a lie so I will get upset and want to know what exactly do they want. I want moral and emotional consistency and for that I will be exacting in that I will ask which does he want. I may seem strict about my wants and needs but only because I know which line I walk on and want to walk on forever. I won't respond until an inconsistency arises (when somethings are said and indicated that go against my values). In that case I only want clarify things "tell me what it is that you want so that I may decide if the relationship is worth it or move on" I want things set in the beginning and not ambiguous and this allows me to seek and have stability which is essencial for my emotional wellbeing. So yes I demand an answer and my demand of a yes/no decide what you want may seem exacting.

[Shiver]

u wont be a moral person if u keep it up with the jelousy, sweaty (:

i will fite u

[The Reality Denialist]

You think this is helpful information for an ILE who is trying to make out the difference? I mean, ILEs are not into behavior that would expose someone else's masochism, whatever their type ;-)

Taking into account external factors one might able to see and hear about it.
Being a work horse despite of being well over the age of retirement and gone through multiple cancer diagnosis (yes, it is wise to continue working with hazardous chemicals in that case... ). For example? Or not?

[consentingadult]

Taking into account external factors one might able to see and hear about it.
Being a work horse despite of being well over the age of retirement and gone through multiple cancer diagnosis (yes, it is wise to continue working with hazardous chemicals in that case... ). For example? Or not?

I don quite understand what it is you want to know?How an ILE would detect being in the presence of on ESI? Well, for example, lets suppose an ILE male is making love to an ESI female. While taking her doggy style, he slaps her ass quite convincingly, and finds out the ESI responds quite positively to it. Now this won't happen this easily, because most ILE males are not into spanking. Like most SEIs are not into being spanked. But even if it were to occur, I wonder if ESIs would accept something like that from en ILE.

Of course I'm talking stereotypes here...

[consentingadult]

This being selfish and self involved is what I mean by less compassionate

You are quite selective in taking aspects from both types and then coming to a conclusion. My rebuttal:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...ld-digger.html

[wasp]

wow. I come here to read about the differences between SEI and ESI but instead I find inane sibling style arguments that go nowhere except down the rabbit hole. you guys have a propensity for shitting all over informative threads kidding

if you're torn between SEI and ESI for a person who is clearly an introverted sensing ethical type or whatever:

chances are it's an SEI. ime it's extremely rare for people to mistake an ESI for a feeler, but if you're still torn...

throws a histrionic fit? SEI.
believes everything their partner tells them, even if it's painfully clear to everyone else around them that they're being manipulated? SEI.
(^ I'm not even kidding. I've seen several SEIs believe some next level bullshit, they're quite delusional in that regard)
the lazy friend you love to hang out with because they're fun as hell? SEI.
misplaced familiarity that is disconcerting i.e. makes you a v-day card two days after meeting you? SEI.
thinks they're smarter than they actually are? SEI.
fluid movements, good in bed? SEI
not the jealous type - in fact, they can't even fathom the concept of jealousy? SEI.
makes little to no sense when they talk? SEI.
describes themselves as hedonistic? SEI.

triggered by a minor offence that anyone else would've let go of years ago? ESI. or ILE.
doesn't believe a single thing their partner tells them, even if it's painfully clear to everyone else around them that they're adored? ESI.
the often misunderstood friend that you'd entrust with your deepest, darkest secrets? ESI.
goes straight for your jugular if you even attempt to fuck with one of their friends? ESI.
thinks they're dumber than they actually are? ESI.
rigid movements that give the impression they're being maneuvered by a skillful puppeteer? ESI.
inclined to jealousy and possessiveness? ESI.
takes on a more serious tone in conversation, occasionally making a cutting remark? ESI.
describes themselves as intimidating? ESI.

I have no clue why people are describing SEIs as conflict-avoidant. they're generally laidback and fun, I agree, but I've known more than a few to completely ruin an emotional atmosphere by leaving a dramatic shit-storm in their wake. it's still kind of funny to me how negatively ESIs are portrayed on this forum. I have difficulty distinguishing between the two types as well, but I find the easiest way to figure it out, for me, is by assessing my attitude toward them. I'd trust an ESI with my life. I wouldn't trust an SEI with anything except ensuring that we have a good time. although either type can be artistic, SEIs are much more likely to be, whereas ESIs, on average, are more likely to take an interest in pragmatic matters. another big difference is that I've often wondered if the SEIs I know are mentally retarded, whereas ESIs give the impression of suffering from PTSD. SEIs blow up immediately, ESIs fester before blowing up some months later. SEIs are unnecessarily cocky, ESIs are strangely self-deprecating.

[ashlesha]

Paranoid im loling... God

[Adam Strange]

The VI difference between ESI and SEI:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlY3w06HuQy/

SEI in cool, complex colors, ESI in two colors and red jacket.

[Number 9 large]

The VI difference between ESI and SEI:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlY3w06HuQy/

SEI in cool, complex colors, ESI in two colors and red jacket.

ah the classic im typing Fi as Fe and Fe as Fi

[The Reality Denialist]

ESI's seem to think that you feel as they feel. That is the universal fallacy of Fi base. It seems like short circuiting itself.

[Rebelondeck]

ISFj vs ISFp

moralistic vs vigilant
reductionistic vs empathetic
detached vs protectionistic
aloof vs tuned-in
likes conquerors vs likes intellectuals
would like to have more control vs would like to have more vision
prefers productivity vs prefers skillfullness
occasional blindness vs occasional tunnel-vision
planned vs ad hoc
soloist vs team player
what I want vs what they want
objective oriented vs target focus
unsure vs fearful
explosive vs reactionary
wants predictability vs wants security

a.k.a. I/O

[FreelancePoliceman]

The VI difference between ESI and SEI:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BlY3w06HuQy/

SEI in cool, complex colors, ESI in two colors and red jacket.

What if you’re acquaintances from a nudist resort?

[Adam Strange]

What if you’re acquaintances from a nudist resort?

The true differences are in the eyes.