INTp-ESFp duality discussion and examples (ILI-SEE)

[astralsilky]

Examples, please.

Can you, for example, imagine an INTp ever telling an ESFp that she is being overly analytical beyond the level of appropriateness for a subject?

Also, do ENFps and ISTps also mutually correct each other a lot? That is, in a way that is edifying?


++added: see also Duality observations

[liveandletlive]

Good questions! I would like to know that too!

One past experience that I remember with my INTp friend was when he told me that one of my "friends" betrayed me. I was hysterically crying and he just kept saying "you're a good person." over and over again and he just kept emphasizing the rational logic of the situation which oddly enough calmed me down. Usually when I get that hyped up with my emotions its so hard for me or anyone in that matter to control them but that helped me and he helped me more than anyone else ever has before.

[Quirk Satellite Div.]

Good questions! I would like to know that too!

One past experience that I remember with my INTp friend was when he told me that one of my "friends" betrayed me. I was hysterically crying and he just kept saying "you're a good person." over and over again and he just kept emphasizing the rational logic of the situation which oddly enough calmed me down. Usually when I get that hyped up with my emotions its so hard for me or anyone in that matter to control them but that helped me and he helped me more than anyone else ever has before.

If you don't mind answering, were you trying to actively argue with your INTp friend's points while you were upset?


As for me, I don't have too many experiences or stories of mutual correction to tell. Perhaps one where an ESFp was able to motivate me to study without distraction when normally its near impossible for me to focus on any task for longer than a few minutes without running off to do something else or ending up daydreaming. But I would like to know more examples of ESFp's correcting INTp's, because they do, but in not so obvious ways.

[liveandletlive]

Well I guess in a way we were both mutually correcting eachother because as I was pouring my heart out to him he would bring in the more logical part of it and I would come back at him with another emotional counter argument.

We definitely do correct eachother a lot however we may not be aware of it because that's how we naturally are. Us gammas are all about improvement and thus criticize a lot. Usually it works out:

ESFp: "Hey, we should go to the bar tonight!"
INTp: "No."
ESFp: "Why not? C'mon it'd be sooooo much fun! We can go get wasted and meet new people. You know that you've been wanting to do something like that for a while anyway, and plus you haven't been out in a while."
INTp: "My idea of fun doesn't include spending at least $100 to go stand around a bar watching you dance and taking care of you afterwards."
ESFp: "You won't have to take care of me- I promise! Plus I'll get the drinks for tonight. Pleaaaaassssseeeeeee!"

etc.,.

[liveandletlive]

So I guess ever since I've learned about socionics I've kinda wished for an ILI to be the man I end up with. My question is for the ILI's: I feel like us ESFp's have a bad rep and was wondering what your views were on this matter. How do you feel about ESFp's? (haha sorry to ask you guys a question- I'm just trying to use it creatively :wink: )

[Jarno]

probably the worst trait of an SEE is that they tend to lie sometimes.

and an ILI is good at noticing them. (i think)

and... not being sincere is a really bad move towards an ILI.

[Delilah]

probably the worst trait of an SEE is that they tend to lie sometimes.

and an ILI is good at noticing them. (i think)

and... not being sincere is a really bad move towards an ILI.

i have to struggle to refrain from saying my piece on this. a really interesting topic btw, *bump and hide*

[Jarno]

i have to struggle to refrain from saying my piece on this. a really interesting topic btw, *bump and hide*

Yeah not all of them do this, some are very sincere, but I do notice they can sometimes be a bit tactical.

I think nowadays (when i'm older) I would not associate lying with SEE that much anymore.

[Delilah]

Yeah not all of them do this, some are very sincere, but I do notice they can sometimes be a bit tactical.

I think nowadays (when i'm older) I would not associate lying with SEE that much anymore.

it's rather i've noticed ILIs can be a bit in the player cathegory *bites tongue*

[liveandletlive]

probably the worst trait of an SEE is that they tend to lie sometimes.

and an ILI is good at noticing them. (i think)

and... not being sincere is a really bad move towards an ILI.

This is true, but that still doesn't answer my question. In my experiences with ILI they appreciate the fact that I can bullshit to get what I want which is what you guys aren't so great at and you guys keep me consistent with your

[Jarno]

probably the worst trait of an SEE is that they tend to lie sometimes.

and an ILI is good at noticing them. (i think)

and... not being sincere is a really bad move towards an ILI.

This is true, but that still doesn't answer my question. In my experiences with ILI they appreciate the fact that I can bullshit to get what I want which is what you guys aren't so great at and you guys keep me consistent with your

Well if you meant the reputation of being 'wild', that's in fact appealing to me. (personally)

Probably the reputation of being a big spender is what makes me most afraid.

Fortunately watching over investments and money is something an ILI should be good at.

[drd252]

Just to shoot a dead horse: SEE do tend to lie, and although they lie in order to "not hurt" feelings, it usually backfires and everything is that much more painful when we (ILI) find you out. I can't stand when people lie to my face.

P.S. If you're with an ILI, and you decide to (or "just happen to") cheat on him, don't try to break up with a dumb-ass lie like "I hurt people, that's why we can't be together". Just tell him, you hurt him, because you cheated on him; then he'll break up with you.

[liveandletlive]

thanks for the advice- although ive never cheated before i guess my is intense, i do sometimes lie but never in a committed relationship- I'll lie to other people I don't give a shit about though. I'm sorry you guys have been so fucked over by ESFp's we're really not that bad!

[Ms. Kensington]

well i think the way she is answering questions is consistent with an ESFp. And if that's her type, telling her to explain herself and criticizing her arguments might not make her respond in a non-defensive way.

Anyway, the ILI-SEE duality is the one I can sort of understand most easily, or makes the most intuitive sense. Also I feel that SEEs can get attracted to other extroverts more often than a quiet ILIs, not that ILIs need reasons to like SEEs.

[ScarlettLux]

well i think the way she is answering questions is consistent with an ESFp. And if that's her type, telling her to explain herself and criticizing her arguments might not make her respond in a non-defensive way.

Anyway, the ILI-SEE duality is the one I can sort of understand most easily, or makes the most intuitive sense. Also I feel that SEEs can get attracted to other extroverts more often than a quiet ILIs, not that ILIs need reasons to like SEEs.

Funnily enough, I think this Duality is the one I least understand. I rarely if ever see it IRL @ my high school - I do see a lot of other intra-quadra interactions taking place though. Mostly Alpha and Beta Ti-Fe is very easily seen.

[implied]

Just to shoot a dead horse: SEE do tend to lie, and although they lie in order to "not hurt" feelings, it usually backfires and everything is that much more painful when we (ILI) find you out. I can't stand when people lie to my face.

P.S. If you're with an ILI, and you decide to (or "just happen to") cheat on him, don't try to break up with a dumb-ass lie like "I hurt people, that's why we can't be together". Just tell him, you hurt him, because you cheated on him; then he'll break up with you.

cannot stand it either. dislike it when people distort information or do "selective truth telling" as well.

[Expat]

Funnily enough, I think this Duality is the one I least understand. I rarely if ever see it IRL @ my high school - I do see a lot of other intra-quadra interactions taking place though. Mostly Alpha and Beta Ti-Fe is very easily seen.

High school is not an environment where you're likely to see SEE-ILI relationships, at least not romantic ones. You're more likely to have it in friendships. I'd guess they exist around you now and then, but they remain off your radar screen.

High school is essentially an Alpha/Beta "social culture", which makes it a favorable environment for relationships in those quadras to form.

[Warlord]

Just to shoot a dead horse: SEE do tend to lie, and although they lie in order to "not hurt" feelings, it usually backfires and everything is that much more painful when we (ILI) find you out. I can't stand when people lie to my face.

Yeah I agree with this. It not so much about being lied to, but I hate to be treated like I would get emotionally hurt by something.

In general I rather have anything "emotion related" told to me straight to my face like it is, wether it's good or bad. Although I don't do that myself either :wink:

But basically I don't care if people lie to me. Most of time I can guess that they are lieing anyway. Sometimes you actually get more information from a lie than from being told the truth

[UDP]

t was all just stupid stuff
and thats what gets me the most about it
its just small stupid nearly preventable things that dont happen to normal people but always happen to me

classic.


Duality strikes again.

[liveandletlive]

hahaha omggg whose quote is that? thats the story of my life. thanks courage!

[UDP]

'Tis from a conversation with an ESFp friend.

[FlameReborn]

I read in another thread somewhere that duals express each other's "hidden side" openly. As in, what one is on the inside, the other is on the outside.

In order to get a firmer grip on the ILI and SEE concepts, I'd like to approach things from this angle.

I have a good idea, but I want input...

So... how are SEE and ILI expressions of each other?

[liveandletlive]

I read in another thread somewhere that duals express each other's "hidden side" openly. As in, what one is on the inside, the other is on the outside.

In order to get a firmer grip on the ILI and SEE concepts, I'd like to approach things from this angle.

I have a good idea, but I want input...

So... how are SEE and ILI expressions of each other?

i can definitely relate to this. i would say that my inner ILI is expressed in how i'll have many aquaintances but very few friends. it's almost as if people need to prove that they are worth my resources and emotional investment before i can have a deeper relationship them. it is also expressed in how i love learning about things and evaluating things even though most people would not know this side of me unless they were one of the chosen few to get beyond the SEE facade. also, our somewhat erratic and over the top behavior in social interactions is in defiance of the that the ILI also refuses to abide by in social interactions. i also have deep spiritual beliefs and other weird intuitive beliefs that intrigue me and i constantly use to confirm or disprove these beliefs by comparing and evaluating them to experiences.

i would say that an ILI's inner SEE is expressed in craving experience and relationships, but not knowing how to approach this (where i come in haha) with their disregard for .

[implied]

hah, i love your posts.

[crazedrat]

The problem with this relationship, is SEE ignores ILI. I have had it happen to me about 4 times now. I say something to them, ...they do not respond. Liveandletlive, can you explain this?

[Jarno]

The problem with this relationship, is SEE ignores ILI. I have had it happen to me about 4 times now. I say something to them, ...they do not respond. Liveandletlive, can you explain this?

I'm just speculating, but this is also my own experience sometimes...

since you know socionics, your approach to SEE may be unnatural. Like, what you say is, you took the initiative to talk to them. to much initiative could be seen as wrong motives / uptight. Both things they hate.

When you are more natural, you would just daydream on, without paying to much attention to them. And that's when they suddenly become interested in you!

as I said, just speculating, but it might be true.

[MrMoney]

I wonder if Aushra Augusta was high on meth while coming up with this duality bullshit. A good romantic relationship is more than having "clicking functions". Did she think that 'effectiveness of relationship = quality of romanticism'?

"The SEE finds it hard to be content with what he has." -

"Confrontational behavior does not phase the SEE, whether his reaction is to respond with confrontation or hostility himself, creating an outwards appearance of indifference and unimpressiveness, or trying to calm down the offender/make them feel guilty." -

"It fills the SEE with joy to be have many different people competing for his attention and affection." -

"An SEE views material objects as well as people in terms of how they can be used to achieve his goals." -

"The SEE can easily create sentiments of closeness and kinship, only to completely change these sentiments down the road. An SEE could be hanging out with a person (A) and act like the person's best friend, yet talk with another friend (B) and show sentiments of extreme distaste towards person 'A' in order to gain acceptance with 'B'." -

"He appreciates those who are good at thinking about things to do, new ways to do things, and especially a unique activities to draw people together. However, the SEE does not hold these abilities in high regard in and of themselves, but only to the degree to which these ideas and strategies can be implemented to serve his EGO block." -

"SEE can become very upset when people are late for unclear reasons and behave in other independent and unpredictable ways. This gives them the feeling of hanging in the air and general uncertainty about the future. Being action oriented people, this is difficult to bear." -

"SEE doesn't like having to weight out pros and cons or make the "right" or "proper" decision." -

"School life seethes around them, they know how and love to be in the center of attention." - Clingy bitch.

1. The player who is always busy conquering people of the opposite sex and bragging of his or her social and sexual prowess.
2. The aggressive trainer who likes to whip people into shape physically or socially and make them be more effective in society.

Seriously, I only think I would be able to have a superficial friendship with this type. I'd much rather have an extroverted intuitive feeler as a SO. I think I'd go mental if I had to live with my polar opposite.

[Jarno]

I wonder if Aushra Augusta was high on meth while coming up with this duality bullshit. A good romantic relationship is more than having "clicking functions". Did she think that 'effectiveness of relationship = quality of romanticism'?

Seriously, I only think I would be able to have a superficial friendship with this type. I'd much rather have an extroverted intuitive feeler as a SO. I think I'd go mental if I had to live with my polar opposite.

Ah, you rather think and assume than test it out in real life? hmm they assumed the earth was flat and centre of the universe...

I had the same assumptions like you do. And you are right, on paper your dual is nothing you really like, rather someone you would like to avoid.

But there are a lot of things happening mentally when you start interacting with your dual. And that's really great. In contrary to your conflictor of which you constantly think, I never say those things what a bullshit. With your dual you think, I never say those things, why didn't I think of that before or, hey what a pleasant surprise.

Next to that you constantly feel comfortable, completely accepted, and even protected, because your dual is someone who is opposite of you, but in a constructive supplementive way. As opposed to your conflictor who just works against you.

As you see it's difficult and vague to explain, but everyone here who has experienced a dual, will tell you it's good. While everyone who reads and assumes, will tell you it's bad.
So it's time to meet a dual '-)

[tiny_dancer]

Yeah, that description doesn't sound so hot, but SEEs IRL are awesome. (Provided of course that they're a well-rounded mature person, but that goes without saying for any type.)

[Linalee]

1."Confrontational behavior does not phase the SEE, whether his reaction is to respond with confrontation or hostility himself, creating an outwards appearance of indifference and unimpressiveness, or trying to calm down the offender/make them feel guilty." -

2."It fills the SEE with joy to be have many different people competing for his attention and affection." -

3."An SEE views material objects as well as people in terms of how they can be used to achieve his goals." -

4."The SEE can easily create sentiments of closeness and kinship, only to completely change these sentiments down the road. An SEE could be hanging out with a person (A) and act like the person's best friend, yet talk with another friend (B) and show sentiments of extreme distaste towards person 'A' in order to gain acceptance with 'B'." -

1.No, with restrictions
2.No
3.No
1.NOOOO

There is much improvement to bring to this description.

My ILI friend (who is not into socionics) was very critical too when I linked it to him. He knew no SEE at that time, and now, he doesn't want to know any. Fortunately, he has no clue as how to type them !

I have 2 SEE friends. They are fine people.

[INTrosPect]

Removed, thanks for the feedback

[Nowisthetime]

It felt like she was demanding some function I couldn't provide.

It doesn't have to be socionics related. I mean it's common that girls want to see if the guy has initiative when on a date, it's just a social, gender role thing. I was on a date with an ILE once and she tested me all the time on ideas, "so what do you suggest that we do", and ILEs aren't exactly lacking in this area. It's usually just a stage that you have to get over. When you get to know each other more things usually change.

[Nico1e]

Maybe she wanted to go back to the mountains to bang.

[d1ffe7]

I'm not really seeing how this is strange either?

It sounds like whenever you offered your preferences (live music, fajitas) she took initiative to make it happen. That sounds like SEE-ILI duality to me. She respects your opinion. That's why SEEs like ILIs, they want their insight and knowledge to guide their Se initiative. Trying to pry it out of you is the opposite of passive. Also, because duality strengthens overtime, you probably won't feel the need to have a wealth of ideas once you two spend more time together, she gets to know you, and you start feeling more comfortable offering your opinions (whether they are brilliant or not).

[blackburry]

Yeah, that sounds SEE-ILI to me. if she likes you, she will agree to hang out with you again. LOL someone putting their face 2inches from your own isnt type related..sounds gross.

[Azure Flame]

Post pictures of ILI SEE duals.

I'm curious how the relationship looks from the outside. I was thinking the iron giant might be an example, with Hogarth as the ILI and the Iron Giant as the SEE? Maybe the other way around?

[woofwoofl]

pic? Hell, I'll do you one better:

[nanashi]

pic? Hell, I'll do you one better:

do you think the younger guy is SEE?

[hoodrat]

And it's been great! She's really fun to be around and we've been text joking around with one another constantly and I really think we're hitting it off and moving towards a more official "relationship."

However, I think she doesn't have a great self-image, and she asked me a few times for specific reasons why I liked her last night. I just told her stuff like "because you're hot!" and "because of your sparkling personality [sarcastically]".... but she said that wasn't good enough so I told her what she wanted to hear "because you're witty and not boring to be around" which is true.... but I don't have like... a list of REASONS for liking her (like i think she was looking for)... I just do.

When I complimented her on her looks, she'd keep saying things like "you don't get out much obviously" and stuff like that. It seems kind of silly for her to say that, but then again come to think of it I would be completely repulsed if a girl KNEW she was hot shit and expected people to bow down to that.

She kept playing hard to get last night, but not seriously, just in a joking way which is REALLY fun to me. At one point she pretended to be offended by something I said to her and went to the sofa on the other side of the room and called it the time out sofa. But as soon as she sat down I just got up and sat next to her again and started giving her hugs and kissing her (which she obviously liked)....

She really worried me towards the end of the night when things were winding down, she said something like "just to let you know, you probably shouldn't get too attached.... I mean... I just got out of a serious relationship at the beginning of the summer and I'm not really sure what I'm looking for right now... I mean... I don't know exactly what you're looking for... " then she stopped when she saw this completely horrified and hurt look on my face and said "yeah... but I guess it's too late for that...." She totally digs me.

But yeah! Score! Dual romance rocks and I highly recommend it. I can't wait to hang out with her more and get her to be herself more....

[xyz]

Did you feel duality in your pants?