INTp-ESFp duality discussion and examples (ILI-SEE)

[Warlord]

hahaha. oh, i guess that's all you can tell me is it? not even one specific detail on why I am wrong? i like your reply "try learning basic socionics". First instinct: reiterate what he has read. Here is basically your problem- you prefer to have others do your thinking for you; and then use their thinking to the best of your ability. the first thing you look at when you read something is the stamp it has on it. I write something, and you don't recognize or see your accepted stamp of approval on it, so what i have to say is thrown in the trash can. the note is not even read properly. (assuming you could read it properly. I really don't think so)

No. The problem is that you obviously don't understand subtypes. And of course the miserably failing logic that follows from your lack of understanding of the subtypes, results in that everything you wrote is just complete bullshit.

You obviously have no idea, how I think either. So how about not telling me how I supposedly think.

ILI-Ni: Si>Te/Fe>Ni/Ne>Fi/Ti>Se
ILI-Te: Ne>Fi/Fe>Ni/Si>Te/Ti>Se

This is not the difference between the subtypes. How about you just read what the subtypes even are.

Of course you can create your own ridicilous bullshit theories all you want, and type yourself as the Fairy Queen of Ulan Bator if you want. But in socionics you are an INFp, and socionics types are what this board is about.

The grading of my Masters degree is enough proof of my intelligence And another random-guy-on-the-internet just recently told me that I'm the smartest guy in the world, so there's no other option, I must be.

And btw. nice work on sounding like a schizophrenic the all way through.

[crazedrat]

essentially, yes. The dominant function line is the same for both subtypes (Fe>Ni), as is the dual function line (Ti>Se). The other two lines are reversed. This is what creates the regressive vs. progressive difference. Once information reaches (Fe>Ni), whether it be drawn from Ne>Fi or from Si>Te... it is in the same form; the difference being it has either been consolidated (in the case of Si>Te) or pruned down (in the case of Ne>Fi) in order to achieve that proper form for (Fe>Ni).

[crazedrat]

ILE-Ti: Ni>Fe/Fi>Ne/Se>Ti/Te>Si

I think you interpreted this transcription wrong. For ILE-Ti, (Ni>Fe) in the first block implies an awareness of possible courses of events (Ni), and that these courses can dynamically combine to affect the integrity of the situation (Fe) (Ni>Fe). By comparing these various impressions of possible states of affairs (Fe), ILE-Ti creates an impression (Fi) of their current deviation from ideal actualization. this impression informs and motivates the ideal course of action (Ne) in the name of relieving the Fi impression from existance (Fi>Ne) and obtaining the ideal circumstance.
The ideal circumstance (Se) is defined by the coherent operation of its parts (Ti) (Se>Ti). This coherent operation implies the sound relations (Te) of the elements of the situation at hand (Si) (Te>Si).

The confusion arises from assuming the first function pair in the transaction is the primary emphasis of the equation. This is true with dominant function subtypes (like ILI-Ni above), where a progressive transformation is occuring (For example, with ILI-Ni where an array of Te relations are consolidated into an Fe impression). With a regressive transformation (for example, with ILE-Ti where Fe impressions are regressing into a singular Fi impression), the 3rd block is the creative block.
The difference between the two subtype notations is not a matter of function strength; but more of which function pairs feed into which; and from this, what a function is thought of to mean, or be relevant towards.

[Khamelion]

i don't understand the point of a conversation like that being in a gamma thread O_o


maybe if you explained....


she sounded kinda hot though...i don't know how im picking up on that. maybe its the part where she's telling you what you SHOULD be doing...i don't know. other than that im lost lol

[Khamelion]

Logos, you don't understand gamma humor. go away.

i'll kill you.



your conversation wasn't even humorous...it was mundane everyday lovey talk received with indifference

[Khamelion]

i don't see why he shouldn't get the same sort of criticism and reactions i have gotten for making posts like these. i'll say whatever i feel like i want to say, and ask whatever it is i need to know. i was barely giving him grief and he doesn't seem to take offense to me...not yet anyway...so i figure he'll point out whatever it is he thought was relevant to gamma or socionics in general.

[Elro]

Be quiet. No you didn't.

Look at the shiny object instead:

^Chicago?

[Logos]

^Chicago?

If you want it to be. Honestly, I have no idea. I just picture-searched shiny object.

[hoodrat]

So yeah, i'm now slowly remembering how ILIs are a very....different bunch. But different is good.

I've made a couple posts about me (a presumed SEE) starting a relationship with an ILI. It's been a couple weeks now since we've been "together," but i'm not even sure if it's okay for me to use that word (I know she would probably flip out if i did!)

Basically, to sum things up:

*She wants to take baby steps, I want to dive right into this thing.

*She constantly makes inferences that it probably isn't going to last very long, I constantly make inferences that we're going to be together for a long time (e.g. joking about marriage and kids, which makes her FLIP, [note: but it's so much fun to make her flip!]). In these situations her eyes get really wide and she like stares off into nothing and says "You're thinking WAAAY too far ahead again....."

*An example from a conversation today....

Her: I'm not sure you should get your hopes up....
Me: Why??? Don't you like me???
Her: It's not that I don't like you, it's just that I think you like me a lot more than I like you..... (she quickly realizes that this is really mean and hurt my feelings, although I ACT a lot more hurt than I really am, because it's fun and easy to act emotions in front of her)
Me: ....wait....so....you're saying YOU LIKE ME??? <3<3 (i begin hugging her and showing affection)
Her: (tries her best to get away but can't because i'm stronger. PWND.)

*later on I asked her, "Can I get a signed affidavit saying that you like me?" She replied quickly and sarcastically, "I'm not leaving a paper trail...."


But yeah, I know a lot of my uncertainty about us has to do with Role Function, and a lot of her hesitance to really establish us as "together" has to do with her PolR, but damn, I really can't wait to crack this nut....

I can wait it out though. It's totally worth it and it's not really getting me down. In fact, I like the challenge. Speaking of which, I really really doubt anyone can truly get an ILI to be really emotionally attached other than an SEE (and only then after LOTS of hard work). She said she's dated a few other guys while she's been in town and they've all ran away after a short while or she got weirded out by them or something.... But yeah, it's really fucking hard and I doubt anyone else has this kind of determination or derives this much enjoyment from all the little petty ILI-isms as I do....

It's like I told her on the phone earlier:

"You're not very nice...."

"(defensively) Well, I'm not trying to be mean, it's just that I think you're taking this thing way too fast...."

"Don't worry about it. It actually encourages me when you put up a fight like this"

"BUT I'M TRYING TO DISCOURAGE YOU"

[we both kind of get a laugh at this and I'm reassured because I know that deep down she's a softy]


Yeah... sorry for the long winded rant. Hope yall learned something from it....

[reyn_til_runa]

honestly, you seem to let off a bit too much Fe for my taste. but who knows, this girl may be more tolerant of Fe than i am. what i am referring to is the sort of teasing on the subject of personal feelings and your saying "it's fun and easy to act emotions in front of her." <<turn off

it seems i have had dialogues like this a few times, and, in the end, it always happens that i want out.

emotional attachment is not our favorite pastime.

and also make sure she never finds that you are writing about her here. public display of emotion seems to cheapen genuine emotion, if it exists.

[hoodrat]

honestly, you seem to let off a bit too much Fe for my taste. but who knows, this girl may be more tolerant of Fe than i am. what i am referring to is the sort of teasing on the subject of personal feelings and your saying "it's fun and easy to act emotions in front of her." <<turn off

it seems i have had dialogues like this a few times, and, in the end, it always happens that i want out.

emotional attachment is not our favorite pastime.

and also make sure she never finds that you are writing about her here. public display of emotion seems to cheapen genuine emotion, if it exists.

is my demonstrative..... i'm just kidding around when I say that kinda stuff, shesh. It really is your PolR isn't it?

Also, do ILIs usually take things literally as said? I've noticed they have a tendency to be gullible, especially in front of a good actor. I told this ILI i'm talking about that "I was married a few years ago and have 2 children" and she actually believed me for a second! I'm 21 years old and obviously not "one of those types of people".... lol

But yeah, I agree, I probably do give off too much for ILI taste, but damn, to be honest you really don't give off hardly any. Getting an affirmation for my unsure about a relationship is like PULLING TEETH. I don't expect you to show very much , but you gotta show a little.

I expect I'll have to use less and less with time as she starts to open up a little more....

[hoodrat]

emotional attachment is not our favorite pastime. .

And yeah... I noticed

[edit:]

By the way, you're the most obvious ILI i've seen on this forum yet. Yeah, I'm sure she'd get really pissed if she found out I was writing about her on this, but I'm sure I could spin it. That's the thing with you ILIs.... you just don't realize the determination and resources we have when it comes to relationships. We're ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE YOU but we love eachother and are partners.... so lets work together .

p.s. no joke about the public display of emotion thing.... I was grabbing her booty earlier walking into breakfast and I coulda sworn she was about to break up with me right then and there over the PDA thing. But I'm just so sweet and irresistable who can deny me when I appologise?

[reyn_til_runa]

Also, do ILIs usually take things literally as said? I've noticed they have a tendency to be gullible, especially in front of a good actor. I told this ILI i'm talking about that "I was married a few years ago and have 2 children" and she actually believed me for a second! I'm 21 years old and obviously not "one of those types of people".... lol

it's just that information stated as fact is generally taken as fact. although it may be unlikely that you were, in fact, married a few years ago and have two children, i wouldn't tend to dismiss the statement as false purely based on unlikelihood.

And yeah... I noticed

[edit:]

By the way, you're the most obvious ILI i've seen on this forum yet. Yeah, I'm sure she'd get really pissed if she found out I was writing about her on this, but I'm sure I could spin it. That's the thing with you ILIs.... you just don't realize the determination and resources we have when it comes to relationships. We're ABSOLUTELY NOTHING LIKE YOU but we love eachother and are partners.... so lets work together .

yeah, one thing i've noticed with the SEEs i've spent time with is that given a sort of baseline level of trust and an obvious comfort which results from giving/receiving dual-seeking functions, i naturally will become a bit warmer, or at least, accepting of warmth. in other words, you may be right that she is a softie with you in the privacy of your relationship, but being a softie with or around others is another story.

[hoodrat]

it's just that information stated as fact is generally taken as fact. although it may be unlikely that you were, in fact, married a few years ago and have two children, i wouldn't tend to dismiss the statement as false purely based on unlikelihood.

Sigh.... that's why I love you guys .... Keep doing what you do. Life would be seriously way too boring without you.

yeah, one thing i've noticed with the SEEs i've spent time with is that given a sort of baseline level of trust and an obvious comfort which results from giving/receiving dual-seeking functions, i naturally will become a bit warmer, or at least, accepting of warmth. in other words, you may be right that she is a softie with you in the privacy of your relationship, but being a softie with or around others is another story.

Yup. Agreed 100%.

[Mea]

i really don't know what to do say about this. except, maybe i'd get annoyed in a conversation like that.

no. not maybe, the whole conversation is really ... annoying.

[anon50557]

It can will take a looong time to get an ILI's emotional trust. Certainly months rather than weeks. SEEs can just seem so fun and carefree at times (yes, we know you're quite driven, too) that it's hard to turn to you with Fe matters, such as moods and emotions. The IEI type (more serious? predictable? similar?)seems to get me to trust them with Fe so much easier and faster. Keeping up an emotional barrier while looking out for affirmation that the SEE's interest is persistent just feels...safer. I can definately see initially not relying on the relationship lasting too long and mentally calculating how much it would bother me if everything disappeared at this point. although I highly doubt that the ILI is actually bothered that your apparent interest is greater than hers.

and yes, I've come across the 'i was married and have 2 children' style hoax. Among people I just meet, and people I like, it's nice to turn off the bullshit detectors... and as a result I end up believing a that I was listening to a phone conversation, when in reality no phone call was ever made ;/

[crazedrat]

So yeah, i'm now slowly remembering how ILIs are a very....different bunch. But different is good.

I've made a couple posts about me (a presumed SEE) starting a relationship with an ILI. It's been a couple weeks now since we've been "together," but i'm not even sure if it's okay for me to use that word (I know she would probably flip out if i did!)

Basically, to sum things up:

*She wants to take baby steps, I want to dive right into this thing.

*She constantly makes inferences that it probably isn't going to last very long, I constantly make inferences that we're going to be together for a long time (e.g. joking about marriage and kids, which makes her FLIP, [note: but it's so much fun to make her flip!]). In these situations her eyes get really wide and she like stares off into nothing and says "You're thinking WAAAY too far ahead again....."

*An example from a conversation today....

Her: I'm not sure you should get your hopes up....
Me: Why??? Don't you like me???
Her: It's not that I don't like you, it's just that I think you like me a lot more than I like you..... (she quickly realizes that this is really mean and hurt my feelings, although I ACT a lot more hurt than I really am, because it's fun and easy to act emotions in front of her)
Me: ....wait....so....you're saying YOU LIKE ME??? <3<3 (i begin hugging her and showing affection)
Her: (tries her best to get away but can't because i'm stronger. PWND.)

*later on I asked her, "Can I get a signed affidavit saying that you like me?" She replied quickly and sarcastically, "I'm not leaving a paper trail...."


But yeah, I know a lot of my uncertainty about us has to do with Role Function, and a lot of her hesitance to really establish us as "together" has to do with her PolR, but damn, I really can't wait to crack this nut....

I can wait it out though. It's totally worth it and it's not really getting me down. In fact, I like the challenge. Speaking of which, I really really doubt anyone can truly get an ILI to be really emotionally attached other than an SEE (and only then after LOTS of hard work). She said she's dated a few other guys while she's been in town and they've all ran away after a short while or she got weirded out by them or something.... But yeah, it's really fucking hard and I doubt anyone else has this kind of determination or derives this much enjoyment from all the little petty ILI-isms as I do....

It's like I told her on the phone earlier:

"You're not very nice...."

"(defensively) Well, I'm not trying to be mean, it's just that I think you're taking this thing way too fast...."

"Don't worry about it. It actually encourages me when you put up a fight like this"

"BUT I'M TRYING TO DISCOURAGE YOU"

[we both kind of get a laugh at this and I'm reassured because I know that deep down she's a softy]


Yeah... sorry for the long winded rant. Hope yall learned something from it....

Okay listen hoodrat. I have a warning for you. It is this: do not let your awareness of socionics warp the way you act toward her, or you may make things a bit "unnatural" between you two, and to some minor extent take away from the honest interaction of duality. I mean... don't be too aggressive. Aggressive is good... but like, to the point where it's plain unnatural and driven soley by your awareness of your intertype relation with her, this will perhaps play against you. Not that I don't recognize her behavior as something which would indicate she likes you; and something I would pull on a girl to try and goad her into continuing what she is doing.. err, the point is try and think as if you didnt know about socionics

[hoodrat]

Thanks for the warning, that's exactly what I've been trying to do.... I tend to use socionics more as a retrospective hobby when I'm alone for help with my

[hoodrat]

i really don't know what to do say about this. except, maybe i'd get annoyed in a conversation like that.

no. not maybe, the whole conversation is really ... annoying.

Maybe? Potentiality?

[crazedrat]

ah... if it is working then don't completely overhaul it, just adjust it minorly.. that would be my initial instinct. but then again, you have a female ILI up there who probably is a better source for this issue

[Mea]

I'm not sure if it's the same for ILI's, but i'm kind of guessing that somebody with a Ni ego would be more inclined to want to have time to think these things over, while I guess with Se ego it just all - go, go, go.

ya. probably right.

[hoodrat]

From my experience with ILIs, it's taken a very VERY long time to get in on their trusted side to where they really open up to you and share their emotions.... I think I'm perceptive enough of relations () to realize that she does have interest in me and that she really is just kind of "putting me through the test" now, so to speak...

But yeah, I realized quickly that I was taking things way too fast and really did have to tone it done a bit as opposed to some other romances I've been involved with.... (thank god for irrationality or I surely would have "walked my own plank" already!)

[hoodrat]

In any case, I think consistency, good humor, friendliness, stability, and a dose of calmness will be the key. But persistence is good provided with good reason.

Good luck.

Thanks

[Wittmont]

SEE ILI duality - bullshit baffles brains?

[hoodrat]

SEE ILI duality - bullshit baffles brains?

basically

[MrMoney]

I wonder if Aushra Augusta was high on meth while coming up with this duality bullshit. A good romantic relationship is more than having "clicking functions". Did she think that 'effectiveness of relationship = quality of romanticism'?

"The SEE finds it hard to be content with what he has." -

"Confrontational behavior does not phase the SEE, whether his reaction is to respond with confrontation or hostility himself, creating an outwards appearance of indifference and unimpressiveness, or trying to calm down the offender/make them feel guilty." -

"It fills the SEE with joy to be have many different people competing for his attention and affection." -

"An SEE views material objects as well as people in terms of how they can be used to achieve his goals." -

"The SEE can easily create sentiments of closeness and kinship, only to completely change these sentiments down the road. An SEE could be hanging out with a person (A) and act like the person's best friend, yet talk with another friend (B) and show sentiments of extreme distaste towards person 'A' in order to gain acceptance with 'B'." -

"He appreciates those who are good at thinking about things to do, new ways to do things, and especially a unique activities to draw people together. However, the SEE does not hold these abilities in high regard in and of themselves, but only to the degree to which these ideas and strategies can be implemented to serve his EGO block." -

"SEE can become very upset when people are late for unclear reasons and behave in other independent and unpredictable ways. This gives them the feeling of hanging in the air and general uncertainty about the future. Being action oriented people, this is difficult to bear." -

"SEE doesn't like having to weight out pros and cons or make the "right" or "proper" decision." -

"School life seethes around them, they know how and love to be in the center of attention." - Clingy bitch.

1. The player who is always busy conquering people of the opposite sex and bragging of his or her social and sexual prowess.
2. The aggressive trainer who likes to whip people into shape physically or socially and make them be more effective in society.

Seriously, I only think I would be able to have a superficial friendship with this type. I'd much rather have an extroverted intuitive feeler as a SO. I think I'd go mental if I had to live with my polar opposite.

[Jarno]

I wonder if Aushra Augusta was high on meth while coming up with this duality bullshit. A good romantic relationship is more than having "clicking functions". Did she think that 'effectiveness of relationship = quality of romanticism'?

Seriously, I only think I would be able to have a superficial friendship with this type. I'd much rather have an extroverted intuitive feeler as a SO. I think I'd go mental if I had to live with my polar opposite.

Ah, you rather think and assume than test it out in real life? hmm they assumed the earth was flat and centre of the universe...

I had the same assumptions like you do. And you are right, on paper your dual is nothing you really like, rather someone you would like to avoid.

But there are a lot of things happening mentally when you start interacting with your dual. And that's really great. In contrary to your conflictor of which you constantly think, I never say those things what a bullshit. With your dual you think, I never say those things, why didn't I think of that before or, hey what a pleasant surprise.

Next to that you constantly feel comfortable, completely accepted, and even protected, because your dual is someone who is opposite of you, but in a constructive supplementive way. As opposed to your conflictor who just works against you.

As you see it's difficult and vague to explain, but everyone here who has experienced a dual, will tell you it's good. While everyone who reads and assumes, will tell you it's bad.
So it's time to meet a dual '-)

[tiny_dancer]

Yeah, that description doesn't sound so hot, but SEEs IRL are awesome. (Provided of course that they're a well-rounded mature person, but that goes without saying for any type.)

[717495]

Duality doesn't necessarily click from the beginning, although it can. It takes time, and the relation is one that gets better with time, not one that wavers with little direction. My best friend is my quasi-identical, although he is of an opposing quadra, I still feel rather comfortable around him. We've been best friends for 14 years, however I can't say there has been much growth. I can say with certainty that duality just keeps growing, I've seen it from experience.

[MrMoney]

Would a SEE be willing to discuss things such as politics, science and philosophy? Listen to my ramblings and not dismiss them and boring and just say "yeah whatever. Let's go hang out with Tyrell and Queen"? The ideal SO would be one who engages my mind - and the other way around. I don't want to be dependent on a 3rd. party to entertain her.
I want an SO whose interests at home are more than watching the fat idiot Oprah, soap operas, cooking dinner and arranging for the next damned birthday - she should read and tell me about the new stuff she has discovered by reading. She should be above mindless banter such as "oh my god, their car is so nice" and "Christina got a boob-job. I wonder how much it costed. She's a slut"

Why are SEEs awesome? The descriptions make them sound like boring, un-imaginative people (regarding things that matter. Coming up with entertainment for social events has nothing to do with imagination), whose only joy in life is being with other people.

What are the greatest differences between an ESFp and an ENFp?

[ArchonAlarion]

ur not INTp.

No they really don't give a flying fuck about those things especially in the way you're describing them.

Sounds like you're Ti/Fe valuing.

[717495]

Yes and your status is God, and God is an Alpha, so there is obviously something fishy going on.

[MrMoney]

Sounds like you're Ti/Fe valuing.

Enlighten me.

[MrMoney]

SEEs will talk about almost anything. Maybe not to the degree that talking to your identical might bring, but some get their interests turned on when an ILI comes to the scene and talks about deep subject matter in a way that tickles their fancy. For instance, I can casually talk about my psycho-analysis relating to some person and get on about defense mechanisms and my SEE cousin will suddenly be intensely interested in what I have to say because something in them probably says "Ooo...reasonable sounding depth and vision which I'm deep down yearning for but am not sure how to find it but suddenly it's here."

SEEs are also a lot of fun when they aren't pissed off about something but even if they are pissed off, an ILI around can somehow calm their nerves by drawing their attention to something unfamiliar to them.

Not all SEEs come off as fickle. I had a friend who I thought was LIE at first because of their bent towards political interest and in obtaining information relevant to their interests and generally what I had to say about things was interesting to them and it was always interesting for me to hear what they had to say because they put a perspective that is not what I usually get when talking about such things with other NTs. It's very refreshing and just talking with them generates a lot of inspiration than just talking and listening to the sounds of our own voices, arguing, or else just agreeing with each other without discovering anything really eye-opening.

A lot of SEE descriptions (as well as ILI or any descriptions) are really misleading to me and are mere charicatures. Studying the real thing on real terms is obviously a lot more enlightening, at least to see the variety in a single type, provided you have gotten good at typing people you meet (which I think ILIs are generally good at anyways).

Having said that, I agree with what the other ILI (Jarno) has said.

That sounds nice. Could you tell me the differences between an ESFp and an ENFp?

[ragnar]

Duality doesn't necessarily click from the beginning,

According to the intros to socionics I've read, duality is usually quite tense and difficult in the beginning, more so than f.i. activity or companion.

[Linalee]

1."Confrontational behavior does not phase the SEE, whether his reaction is to respond with confrontation or hostility himself, creating an outwards appearance of indifference and unimpressiveness, or trying to calm down the offender/make them feel guilty." -

2."It fills the SEE with joy to be have many different people competing for his attention and affection." -

3."An SEE views material objects as well as people in terms of how they can be used to achieve his goals." -

4."The SEE can easily create sentiments of closeness and kinship, only to completely change these sentiments down the road. An SEE could be hanging out with a person (A) and act like the person's best friend, yet talk with another friend (B) and show sentiments of extreme distaste towards person 'A' in order to gain acceptance with 'B'." -

1.No, with restrictions
2.No
3.No
1.NOOOO

There is much improvement to bring to this description.

My ILI friend (who is not into socionics) was very critical too when I linked it to him. He knew no SEE at that time, and now, he doesn't want to know any. Fortunately, he has no clue as how to type them !

I have 2 SEE friends. They are fine people.

[MrMoney]

An ESFp is going to have a more grounded though active presence and interest in real world concerns on a large scale but will have, usually, a stronger interest and appreciation for Ni based insights and discussion compared to an ENFp who is more apt to set their sights on something that concerns the close-knit community, not really liking to venture too much into ideas that relate to the large scale society unless it has a close-range purpose that can help those around them grow inwardly and outwardly.

In how they would react to an ILI, there might be more conflict of agreement with ENFps while the ESFp might be more apt to ask you to elaborate more in a way that they can get you and then may think about your point in a way that reflects that it's a point they have yet to consider but might fascinate them nonetheless unless they are in a mood where they don't want to think about that sort of stuff or if they are just being obstinate. ESFps can be a little 'fickle' so they might not all be great for deeper discussions, but some are more in tune with their Super ID functions and may be more receptive to it. However, they can be very self-assured, some of them, and getting them to really consider what you are saying can be a bit annoying if they decide you are over-analyzing things,but generally they seem to at least consider my ideas. Though you have to be careful going too abstract on them because they might think you are creating BS, but if you can come off with some grounding, they will likely hear what you have to say.

I recommend talking with them face to face because text-based communication, IME, is usually not their preferred style and they don't always have a huge interest in forumulating their ideas via text, though all SEEs are different and the ones more into writing will probably not care as much either way.

Thanks.

[misutii]

Would a SEE be willing to discuss things such as politics, science and philosophy? Listen to my ramblings and not dismiss them and boring and just say "yeah whatever. Let's go hang out with Tyrell and Queen"?

The SEEs that you likely see, out in public, most often, unfortunately tend to be the opposite of the cream of the crop (crap of the flop or what have you), which is probably why they're so visible, because they're never out of sight somewhere reading or learning anything of value. That being said there are definitely SEEs that can and will articulately discuss things like politics, science and philosophy... but if they were too easy to find the bloody supply and demand curve would sue you.

[FDG]

Sounds like you're INTj.

[Wynch]

I know an SEE-ILI couple and it's really bizarre the transformation the SEE (male) goes through when his ILI gf comes around. When she's not around it's the Eller show. But when she shows up he comes way down to earth and he becomes downright smitten.