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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    show me a Keirsy description(s) that you think are good enough to use for differentiation.
    The best thing would be if you read all the relevant chapters in Keirsey's Please Understand Me II, but in case you don't have access to that book this material might suffice to settle it:

    http://www.advisorteam.org/the_four-..._rational.html

    http://www.advisorteam.org/the_four-..._guardian.html

    Quote Originally Posted by David Keirsey

    RATIONAL NTs, being ABSTRACT in communicating and UTILITARIAN in implementing goals, can become highly skilled in STRATEGIC ANALYSIS. Thus their most practiced and developed intelligent operations tend to be marshalling and planning (NTJ organizing), or inventing and configuring (NTP engineering). And they would if they could be wizards in one of these forms of rational operation. They are proud of themselves in the degree they are competent in action, respect themselves in the degree they are autonomous, and feel confident of themselves in the degree they are strong willed. Ever in search of knowledge, this is the "Knowledge Seeking Personality" – trusting in reason and hungering for achievement. They are usually pragmatic about the present, skeptical about the future, solipsistic about the past, and their preferred time and place are the interval and the intersection. Educationally they go for the sciences, avocationally for technology, and vocationally for systems work. Rationals tend to be individualizing as parents, mindmates as spouses, and learning oriented as children. Rationals are very infrequent, comprising as few as 5% and no more than 7% of the population.

    GUARDIAN SJs, being CONCRETE in communicating and COOPERATIVE in implementing goals, can become highly skilled in LOGISTICS. Thus their most practiced and developed intelligent operations are often supervising and inspecting (SJT adminstering), or supplying and protecting (SJF conserving). And they would if they could be magistrates watching over these forms of social facilitation. They are proud of themselves in the degree they are reliable in action, respect themselves in the degree they do good deeds, and feel confident of themselves in the degree they are respectable. In search of security as they are the "Security Seeking Personality" – trusting in legitimacy and hungering for membership. They are usually stoical about the present, pessimistic about the future, fatalistic about the past, and their preferred time and place is the past and the gateway. Educationally they go for commerce, avocationally for regulations, and vocationally for materiel work. They tend to be enculturating as parents, helpmates as spouses, and conformity oriented as children. There are even more Guardians than Artisans around, at least 40% and as many as 45% of the population.

    Portrait of the Supervisors (ESTJ)

    Supervisor Guardians [ESTJs] are squarely on the side of rules and procedures, and they can be quite serious about seeing to it that others toe the mark – or else face the consequences. They do not hesitate to give their stamp of approval, nor do they withhold their directions or suggestions for improvement. Like seasoned, stalwart umpires, Supervisors will set their jaw and make the call on anyone who steps up to bat. They even feel obligated to do so, and they’re sometimes surprised when others don’t seem grateful for being set straight.

    Comprising at least ten percent of the population, Supervisors go by experience and that is what counts, not speculation and experimentation, and certainly not fantasy. They keep their feet firmly on the ground and make sure that those under their supervision do the same, whether employee, subordinate, offspring, or spouse. If others wish to fool around and daydream, fine, as long as they do it on their own time – which means after the job is done. But if they fritter away their time while on duty, they should not be surprised when the Supervisor calls them on the carpet. The top sergeant will not put up with such nonsense.

    Supervisors are gregarious and civic-minded, and are usually key players of their community. They are generous with their time and energy, and very often belong to a variety of groups, supporting them through steady attendance, but also taking a vocal leadership role. Indeed, membership groups of all kinds attract ESTJs like magnets, perhaps because membership satisfies in some degree their need to maintain the stability of social institutions. Like all the Guardians, ESTJs worry a good deal about society falling apart, morality decaying, standards being undermined, traditions being lost, and they do all they can to preserve and to extend the institutions that embody social order. Supervisors are so in tune with the established institutions and ways of behaving within those institutions, that they have a hard time understanding those who might wish to abandon or radically change them.

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    rotfl nonsense
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Portrait of the Supervisors (ESTJ)

    Supervisor Guardians [ESTJs] are squarely on the side of rules and procedures, and they can be quite serious about seeing to it that others toe the mark – or else face the consequences. They do not hesitate to give their stamp of approval, nor do they withhold their directions or suggestions for improvement. Like seasoned, stalwart umpires, Supervisors will set their jaw and make the call on anyone who steps up to bat. They even feel obligated to do so, and they’re sometimes surprised when others don’t seem grateful for being set straight.

    Comprising at least ten percent of the population, Supervisors go by experience and that is what counts, not speculation and experimentation, and certainly not fantasy. They keep their feet firmly on the ground and make sure that those under their supervision do the same, whether employee, subordinate, offspring, or spouse. If others wish to fool around and daydream, fine, as long as they do it on their own time – which means after the job is done. But if they fritter away their time while on duty, they should not be surprised when the Supervisor calls them on the carpet. The top sergeant will not put up with such nonsense.

    This description is much more like a LSI than LSE.

    "Rules and procedures" together with the later remarks on "not speculation and experimentation" suggests and PoLR -- NOT , and as hidden agenda. How is such a guy the dual of the INFj and acitivity partner of the ENFp? No way.

    The same here:

    Supervisors are so in tune with the established institutions and ways of behaving within those institutions, that they have a hard time understanding those who might wish to abandon or radically change them.
    That's a simplistic description of PoLR. Never one of it as HA.

    The remarks on "wasting time on daydreaming only after the work is done" is more relevant for LSE. But, overall, that description is more like a LSI than like a LSE.

    In fact, the only bit where it wants to describe an "extravert" would be this:

    Supervisors are gregarious and civic-minded, and are usually key players of their community. They are generous with their time and energy, and very often belong to a variety of groups, supporting them through steady attendance, but also taking a vocal leadership role
    Which of course is totally consistent with LSI. It's not necessarily LSI>LSE, either. In fact, that bit could apply to both equally. It's in fact meaningless.


    UDP, on your question between ISFj and ESTj, let me ask you this.

    Do you find yourself with some regularity regretting actions and decisions you took impulsively? Like, you could see a problem looming, you felt you had to do something before it got too late, then took action that turned out to be impulsive and not the correct one at that moment, with you often wishing you had had someone to discuss such decisions with before taking action?

    I'm asking if that's a fairly frequent problem, or if you'd never think of that is a major problem with you.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom
    I agree with everything except the last two in Joy's list. At least the ESTjs/ISFjs I know don't follow that pattern. But they follow the rest of the list.
    That's very interesting, because in MBTI terms, I could definitely see where she's coming from.

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    I have moved the rest of the discussion to another thread on General Discussion.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ESTjs are more likely to go along with and support whatever their partner's interests (activities) and beliefs are, ISFjs are more likely to have strong beliefs of their own, and to challenge their partner's reasons for their interests or beliefs (not that they're any less supportive).
    Unlikely...

    ISFjs are IxFx types, you are describing a strong ExTx here. Also with a hidden agenda questioning other's beliefs is the last thing you wanna do.
    Strong Fi vs. Fi dual seeking. (The type of beliefs I'm talking about are Fi beliefs, not Ni beliefs... though I'm not really sure what a "Ni belief" would even be, aside from a general idea of how things have played out or will play out.)
    SEE

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    UDP, you can ignore Keirsey's ESTJ description if you want. It is not the best of ESTJ/ESTj descriptions, but that doesn't matter and is irrelevant, becuase what you should try to determine is whether you are a Guardian or a Rational. There are many distinct differences between Guardians and Rationals, and that's why Keirsey's groupings is a useful typing tool. You can easily determine whether you are an ENTj or an ESTj (if those are the only possible choices), or to distinguish between ISTjs and INTjs. But if you focus on the overall picture, and ignore some details that are not totally accurate (like Keirsey's claim that all Guardians tend to be pessimists), the things Keirsey says about the differences between SJ Guardians and NT Rationals are true also for the types in Socionics. An LSI or an LSE should definitely identify more with being a Guardian than with being a Rational, and the reverse is true for LIIs and LIEs.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Oh man, this post is really humorous to me oddly enough..

    It defines SERIOUSNESS... ooooohhhh


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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ESTjs are more likely to go along with and support whatever their partner's interests (activities) and beliefs are, ISFjs are more likely to have strong beliefs of their own, and to challenge their partner's reasons for their interests or beliefs (not that they're any less supportive).
    Unlikely...

    ISFjs are IxFx types, you are describing a strong ExTx here. Also with a hidden agenda questioning other's beliefs is the last thing you wanna do.
    Strong Fi vs. Fi dual seeking. (The type of beliefs I'm talking about are Fi beliefs, not Ni beliefs... though I'm not really sure what a "Ni belief" would even be, aside from a general idea of how things have played out or will play out.)
    I guess my point is that subjective beliefs are related to introverted rational functions, Fi and Ti. What I was talking about in the original post would be more along the lines of...

    ESTj's mate: I want to get involved with *inset a non-profit organization or personal interest/hobby or community service activity or something related to spiritual/religious groups or beliefs here*.
    ESTj: Okay... We (or perhaps you) could do that this week if you want to. Is there anyting you want me to help you with?

    ISFj's mate: I want to get involved with *inset a non-profit organization or personal interest/hobby or community service activity or something related to spiritual/religious groups or beliefs here*.
    ISFj: Why do you want to be involved in that organization/activity? *Insert assertions related to the ISFj's subjective moral judgments here*

    Whether the ISFj will support his/her partner in whatever it is they're interested in isn't the point. The point is that the ESTj tends to automatically support and help out with whatever his/her partner wants to do, but the ISFj will question his/her partner's motivations as they relate to each of their own reasoning and subjective moral judgments.
    SEE

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    If the ISFj likes it, he/she might even want to join. But I see what you mean as a general point, and I agree.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    If the ISFj likes it, he/she might even want to join.
    yeah
    SEE

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    UDP is INTj. No ESTj would tolerate the amount of loneliness and detatchment he does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    UDP is INTj. No ESTj would tolerate the amount of loneliness and detatchment he does.
    err.. riiiiight.... Not entirely true. I know this ESTj who does many things alone (excluding work related stuff).
    INTp
    sx/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    UDP is INTj. No ESTj would tolerate the amount of loneliness and detatchment he does.
    I don't think you can justify this assertion with socionics. At all.

    INTjs are Fe dual-seeking, ESTjs are Fi-dual seeking; so from that point of view it can be argued that it is INTjs who'd miss a true social environment more.

    But, in fact, I think that this argument doesn't hold, either for INTjs or ESTjs. It's simply fluff.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    UDP, on your question between ISFj and ESTj, let me ask you this.

    Do you find yourself with some regularity regretting actions and decisions you took impulsively? Like, you could see a problem looming, you felt you had to do something before it got too late, then took action that turned out to be impulsive and not the correct one at that moment, with you often wishing you had had someone to discuss such decisions with before taking action?

    I'm asking if that's a fairly frequent problem, or if you'd never think of that is a major problem with you.
    I am not sure how to respond to this. It is not a major problem, that is for sure. But then again I do not think I have any major problems, save for being sincerely interested in people. When I am in a situation, I am just interested in how smoothly things are going, and not much interested in the human / social / emotional element.

    Like today, at church, I helped people with a 50/50 raffle ticket thing, but I do not really know any of the people. I have gone to the same church for a long time, and I know peoples faces and stuff, but I do not really act very friendly with people. (CLARIFICATION: this ESFj is a close relative of mine who I go to church with all the time, not a stranger--->) Especially with an ESFj who just talks nonstop to everyone that accompanies me, it is just boring. I bring a book about things I am interested in, and I usually bring such a book whenever I go anywhere, because I do not enjoy just sitting around unproductively. Today after church, we went to breakfast, as always, and I brought the book with me in there.... I really wanted to read it then (but I did not out of politeness basically, and knowing the ESFj doesn't like me to do that), because I ate faster than everyone else, and the gabbing was getting so boring... it is a big deal because some of the old ladies have this as their big sunday fun, and my ESFj relative who I goes with it enjoys it. But it is completely useless to me, and I do it basically for her, out of respect. I did get a free meal, though, as well.


    At any rate, I am reasonably sure I have dual seeking and EJ temperment, caregiver>aggressive, and am not dual seeking.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I have moved the rest of the discussion to another thread on General Discussion.
    I will go to that thread after I answer everything here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    ESTj's mate: I want to get involved with *inset a non-profit organization or personal interest/hobby or community service activity or something related to spiritual/religious groups or beliefs here*.
    ESTj: Okay... We (or perhaps you) could do that this week if you want to. Is there anyting you want me to help you with?

    ISFj's mate: I want to get involved with *inset a non-profit organization or personal interest/hobby or community service activity or something related to spiritual/religious groups or beliefs here*.
    ISFj: Why do you want to be involved in that organization/activity? *Insert assertions related to the ISFj's subjective moral judgments here*
    I relate a lot more with ESTj. However, that is generally because I would have made sure the person I am with has certain values already. I would much rather be interested in helping my mate out like that, rather than forcing them to justify this or that - I would do that if I was really questioning them, of course.



    Quote Originally Posted by tcau
    UDP is INTj. No ESTj would tolerate the amount of loneliness and detatchment he does.
    And just what amount would that be? I was not aware I expressed loneliness and detachment to you.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    your ascetic nature is obvious.
    asd

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by tcau
    UDP is INTj. No ESTj would tolerate the amount of loneliness and detatchment he does.
    And just what amount would that be? I was not aware I expressed loneliness and detachment to you.
    You didn't have to. What ESTj would watch other couples interacting with each other in such exhaustive detail? How detatched and uncommunicative.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Doesn't anyone else find this thread really funny and just the entire presentation of it? It's so serious as I said before, as if this were one of the most important things that UDP has ever compiled in his life...

    Personally, I see that he is Serious, Gamma/Delta.. but I still don't understand why he would have thought he was an INTj for that long... I'm just going to call it like I see it : I think that UDP just desperately wants to be an INFj's dual, we all know how much he lusts after them . I think the fact that he hasn't gotten any true contact from a hot ESFj has led him to question his INTj-dom.

    It's like now UDP is saying : Okay, I'm ESTj and that's that. It's as if ... it's cool for him and appropriate now... hmm? I just think that it seems really weird for him to spend so much time insisting he is the epitome of INTj, drooling over ESFjs, talking about recognizing and being attracted to faces, etc. all that B.S. and then turning around and becoming an ESTj?

    It's time like these where I really think the more we over analyze, the farther we get from the truth of our real "type".. honestly. I could probably make an ample case for me being a lot of other types, including ENTp, ENFp, ESFp, whatever! But are any of them who I really am?

    It all seems too constructed to me...


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    i agree with you, SL. i think there's a small case for serious/merry, but other than that i don't know. i think having a poor sense of the emotional background of a conversation is not anything that clashes with being INTj since they're some of the least socially skilled out there.


    http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10827 <--- does that apply to you UDP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Doesn't anyone else find this thread really funny and just the entire presentation of it? It's so serious as I said before, as if this were one of the most important things that UDP has ever compiled in his life...

    Personally, I see that he is Serious, Gamma/Delta.. but I still don't understand why he would have thought he was an INTj for that long... I'm just going to call it like I see it : I think that UDP just desperately wants to be an INFj's dual, we all know how much he lusts after them . I think the fact that he hasn't gotten any true contact from a hot ESFj has led him to question his INTj-dom.

    It's like now UDP is saying : Okay, I'm ESTj and that's that. It's as if ... it's cool for him and appropriate now... hmm? I just think that it seems really weird for him to spend so much time insisting he is the epitome of INTj, drooling over ESFjs, talking about recognizing and being attracted to faces, etc. all that B.S. and then turning around and becoming an ESTj?

    It's time like these where I really think the more we over analyze, the farther we get from the truth of our real "type".. honestly. I could probably make an ample case for me being a lot of other types, including ENTp, ENFp, ESFp, whatever! But are any of them who I really am?


    It all seems too constructed to me...
    From Nietzche's On the Genealogy of Morals:
    We don't know ourselves, we knowledgeable people—we are personally ignorant about ourselves. And there's good reason for that. We've never tried to find out who we are. How could it ever happen that one day we'd discover our own selves? With justice it's been said that "Where your treasure is, there shall your heart be also." Our treasure lies where the beehives of our knowledge stand. We are always busy with our knowledge, as if we were born winged creatures—collectors of intellectual honey. In our hearts we are basically concerned with only one thing, to "bring something home." As far as the rest of life is concerned, what people call "experience"—which of us is serious enough for that? Who has enough time? In these matters, I fear, we've been "missing the point."

    Our hearts have not even been engaged—nor, for that matter, have our ears! We've been much more like someone divinely distracted and self-absorbed into whose ear the clock has just pealed the twelve strokes of noon with all its force and who all at once wakes up and asks himself "What exactly did that clock strike?"—so we rub ourselves behind the ears afterwards and ask, totally surprised and embarrassed "What have we really just experienced? And more: "Who are we really?" Then, as I've mentioned, we count—after the fact—all the twelve trembling strokes of the clock of our experience, our lives, our being—alas! in the process we keep losing the count. So we remain necessarily strangers to ourselves, we do not understand ourselves, we have to keep ourselves confused. For us this law holds for all eternity: "Each man is furthest from himself." Where we ourselves are concerned, we are not "knowledgeable people."
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    What do you want me to say in response to that? -- (to everyone)
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    What do you want me to say in response to that? -- (to everyone)
    How about, "I'm an ESTj."?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Personally, I see that he is Serious, Gamma/Delta.. but I still don't understand why he would have thought he was an INTj for that long... I'm just going to call it like I see it : I think that UDP just desperately wants to be an INFj's dual, we all know how much he lusts after them . I think the fact that he hasn't gotten any true contact from a hot ESFj has led him to question his INTj-dom.
    What irks me the most is that you really think I would try to fool the entire forum just to justify something like that. What good would that do?

    You are implying I would intentionally lie to myself and the entire socionics community, for what, a pathetic bit of infatuation? You really suppose I would get off on doing something like that?


    Go ahead and believe what you want. Just know I fully disagree with your opinions.



    How about, "I'm an ESTj."?
    It's in my damn signature.

    It's not "maybe I'm ESTj". And even this thread is not "am I ESTj?"

    I don't do except when I am pissed, so


    *insert prototypical beta Fe argument to seem convincing HERE*



    take that and like it. Look, I understand SL has found a seemingly gray area, but, she is jumping the gun, and questioning my maturity at the same time. If you really think I am the type of person who would make this elaborate posturing just to justify - what is SL getting at, physical attraction?- then so be it. I say you clearly don't know me well enough to make any sort of comments about me, should such be the case.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    How about, "I'm an ESTj."?
    It's in my damn signature.

    It's not "maybe I'm ESTj". And even this thread is not "am I ESTj?"

    I don't do except when I am pissed, so


    *insert prototypical beta Fe argument to seem convincing HERE*



    take that and like it. Look, I understand SL has found a seemingly gray area, but, she is jumping the gun, and questioning my maturity at the same time. If you really think I am the type of person who would make this elaborate posturing just to justify - what is SL getting at, physical attraction?- then so be it. I say you clearly don't know me well enough to make any sort of comments about me, should such be the case.
    Exactly. Why do you need to say any more than that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Personally, I see that he is Serious, Gamma/Delta.. but I still don't understand why he would have thought he was an INTj for that long... I'm just going to call it like I see it : I think that UDP just desperately wants to be an INFj's dual, we all know how much he lusts after them . I think the fact that he hasn't gotten any true contact from a hot ESFj has led him to question his INTj-dom.
    What irks me the most is that you really think I would try to fool the entire forum just to justify something like that. What good would that do?

    You are implying I would intentionally lie to myself and the entire socionics community, for what, a pathetic bit of infatuation? You really suppose I would get off on doing something like that?


    Go ahead and believe what you want. Just know I fully disagree with your opinions.
    [/quote]

    i think it's funny that she's calling you out on your inconsistency in type. i sort of think you should stick with INTj although i doubt INFj would be a good match for you either.

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    What the hell kind of good is consistency if you're consistently wrong? If he's figured out he's not the type he thought he was, why try to convince him to "stick with" that type? What benefit could possibly come from that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    What the hell kind of good is consistency if you're consistently wrong? If he's figured out he's not the type he thought he was, why try to convince him to "stick with" that type? What benefit could possibly come from that?
    it's that he's still INTj, sweaty guy behind the computer screen hah. ISFj would be like, joke of the year. the only thing he shares in common w/ them is Ti/Fi/i-won't-put-up-with-it coldness i think. i can't see UDP deciding one day to run an entire household for fun.

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    I don't think ISFjs do it just for fun either.

    I was actually thinking more along the lines of Te dominant.
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    I went shopping today:

    $65.00 shoes
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    $48.00 pants
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    $210.99 total


    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Wait a second --

    SL - what?? Did you just..... feel like disregarding that you saw this when you made your post at the top of this page?
    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    *UDP grins subtly, in regard to seeing alpha as quadra on its own, appreciating it, but realizing he is not a part of it*
    Aww, hahaha.. yet you were part of it! Not too long ago. But yeah, Serious is spelled out all over you.
    http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...=246777#246777

    No - that is just it. My type did not "change", my understanding did. I was never "a part of it", I was always wrong.


    PS: and what complicates matters -- and precisely what you seem to be avoiding or unable to comprehend -- is the conditioning towards alpha that I had in my youth, and my early life.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Uey, Scarlett clearly has a crush on you and is just upset that you aren't her dual. If I recall correctly she was pretty certain she was victim when you thought you might be ISTj, and now that you have decided on ESTj she suddenly is in need of a caregiver.

    One more thing: I know UDP far better than anyone else here, and I believe he is ESTj. End of argument.
    EII

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    that's not a very good argument.

    Also i really don't see the point of posting reasons why someone is a type if they are not willing to argue about it. But i would probably be annoyed too if people weren't seeing things the way I see the evidence I give.

    People have questioned my type. It's weird I have stopped reviving my type thread because it seems the more that I introspect (Logos) the more sure of my type I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by tcau
    UDP is INTj. No ESTj would tolerate the amount of loneliness and detatchment he does.
    And just what amount would that be? I was not aware I expressed loneliness and detachment to you.
    You didn't have to. What ESTj would watch other couples interacting with each other in such exhaustive detail? How detatched and uncommunicative.
    An ESTj using (collecting of outside information) in order to try to understand something ( ) he values but is insecure about? Which is by the way a good description of my own approach to socionics and observing people.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    that's not a very good argument.

    Also i really don't see the point of posting reasons why someone is a type if they are not willing to argue about it. But i would probably be annoyed too if people weren't seeing things the way I see the evidence I give.

    People have questioned my type. It's weird I have stopped reviving my type thread because it seems the more that I introspect (Logos) the more sure of my type I am.
    i think you're horribly hard to see as some Si type, specifically ISFp. odd that we have pretty much the same family thing going on, though.

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    If he's ESTj, then fine. I guess it was illusion.

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    incedentally i just noticed my post in relation to Expat's most recent in this thread. Seems like there is a contrast from EJ and IJ style of convincing there...but I don't think my methods for gathering information are much different--seems like a thinker's way really-- it just seems that there is something to the way that I worded my response and how Expat worded his seems telling.

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    UDP, are you a Guardian, or are you a Rational? When we know the answer to that question we will have eliminated two of the four possible types you can be, because we know that you are one of the four Tjs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    UDP, are you a Guardian, or are you a Rational? When we know the answer to that question we will have eliminated two of the four possible types you can be, because we know that you are one of the four Tjs.
    Phaedrus, I want to personally thank you for saying that.

    I do not feel I have adequate definitions in order for me to make the differentiation you are looking for. I may be stopping by a library soon, though, so I may be able to pick up the book you mentioned. I read some of it a year ago or so.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

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    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    UDP, are you a Guardian, or are you a Rational? When we know the answer to that question we will have eliminated two of the four possible types you can be, because we know that you are one of the four Tjs.
    Phaedrus, I want to personally thank you for saying that.
    You're welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    I do not feel I have adequate definitions in order for me to make the differentiation you are looking for. I may be stopping by a library soon, though, so I may be able to pick up the book you mentioned. I read some of it a year ago or so.
    In my version of that book The Keirsey FourTypes Sorter is included at the very end. That test has worked fine and indicated the correct Keirsey temperament group for all the people I have tested it on (not too many but at least 5-10 people). Similar tests might be available on the Internet.

    In addition to the main chapters on Guardians and Rationals, the chapters on Mating and Parenting are also of interest in Keirsey's book if you want to understand the differences between Guardians and Rationals. Put all together they describe how my attitudes and behaviour differ from every ESFj, ISTj, ISFj, and ESTj I know in real life. What he says about Rationals might be most accurate for INTps, since Keirsey is an INTp himself, but I think it is mostly correct for many other Rationals as well.

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