Examples of Te dual seeking

[Suz]

To get with the dual you need to be thrown together by circumstances. It's a phenomenal thing that occurs. Its very difficult to try and approach a dual without intervening circumstances and force a relationship to start. I have tried.. some sparks fly and then it just fizzles out because both people stay in their ego, and that keeps them separated.

I dont always agree with you, but what you said here is ringing very very true ime.

[Lobo]

You boss is following an altruistic strategy when it comes to business. He was essentially focusing on pleasing the customer and broadcasting how open and cooperative he is. The hidden message here is: "see? I will seek to cooperate with you and hide nothing, doing business with me is safe". In case of Bob this strategy has worked as Bob has decided to do business with him. In part it also worked because it sounds like Bob is following same strategy himself. As you have noted he could have just went to check competitor's price and kept his mouth shut. The Te DS hasn't really come into play yet. Now if Bob starts breaking business agreements and your boss will still put up with him rather than judge him incompetent that's where his Te DS will show. Or likewise if Bob fails on some small irrelevant thing and your boss totally blows his top off over it that would be Te DS also.

With respect to him not taking care of finances I really don't think this has to do with Te. I've known several Te ignoring, Te roles and Te PoLR personalities who would watch for such things like hawks. This appears to have something to do with Si if anything, but the connection isn't as simple as to say that all Si egos are good at tracking finances and other types fail at it.

Well, my boss gets mad when people don't act according to his standards, which tend to be unrealistic. It's almost as if he lives in his own illusion of how things should be in the world, and he doesn't seem to be able to re-evaluate his standards by himself. I can see the altruistic strategy being related to Fi. The Te-DS might be him swearing by certain procedures without considering that they might be wrong (this last part might be Ne-polr).

Te DS.. These people want events to unfold according to a procedure. All processes have a correct procedure.

I can see this being the case for ISFjs more than for INFjs though.

Why do the idiots always get the promotions? I'm guessing Bob has just been there a long time and knows the silly procedures.

, Bob is a nice guy, but what he did wasn't good business practice.

Wow, boss is not so smart. If I were him I'd at least have combed through the books to get a good overview of the company's baseline operating expenses like payroll/associated costs, rent, taxes, interest charges, and depreciation, then draw up estimates of the particular expenses of doing what Bob needed so you could hit at least some minimum profit margin based off of the going rates in the industry, probably by doing some research in obtaining competitor quotes and studying their financials if they're a public company. I don't know how long he's been in the business or how the company's looking, so maybe he has at least some idea of what he's got to charge to turn acceptable profit, but it just sounds like he's playing fast and loose about it in a way that's asking to be taken advantage of.

What's worse is that he waited until maybe 30min before the meeting to prepare the quote, lol. I glanced at the numbers he put in, and they were so low... In fact, Bob contacted him today saying that the quote was below competitors and we could raise it. I didn't even know people did that.

[Minde]

He might be the people-pleaser sub-type. Or, certain people, anyway.

I personally feel like I am way too naive in my business approaches. I'm pretty trusting, tending to automatically believe that everyone is genuine and well-intentioned. I want to like people; and I am happy when they like me back. Thus I am often open and giving, especially when given questions or requests.

This attitude, while ideal for me - I feel it's probably a little dangerous. Especially since I'm running my own business. Happily, thus far I've been alright and have not been obviously taken advantage of.

But I guess since I can face that it's a weakness, as the second post pointed out, that gives me a little more control over it. With regard to accounting I was "bad" at it for awhile, and I still don't consider it my favorite, but building up a routine has helped as well as my instinctual love for order, so now my finances are relatively organized.


Anyway, I don't think I actually have anything useful to say here. I don't know what the socionic difference between you and your boss is. Just wanted to chip in how some of this resonated with me.

[munenori2]

What's worse is that he waited until maybe 30min before the meeting to prepare the quote, lol. I glanced at the numbers he put in, and they were so low... In fact, Bob contacted him today saying that the quote was below competitors and we could raise it. I didn't even know people did that.

Bob is one nice SOB.

[silke]

Well, my boss gets mad when people don't act according to his standards, which tend to be unrealistic. It's almost as if he lives in his own illusion of how things should be in the world, and he doesn't seem to be able to re-evaluate his standards by himself. I can see the altruistic strategy being related to Fi. The Te-DS might be him swearing by certain procedures without considering that they might be wrong (this last part might be Ne-polr).

Him getting mad when people don't act according to his standards is likely cuz he is boss. I mean isn't that what bosses are supposed to do, set standards and then enforce certain order? That his standards are unrealistic might be because he is not a super intelligent guy. Alternatively, he has reasons for doing things that are not clear to you at this point, so you think that he is doing something stupid when in reality what he is doing actually works. Not checking whether his procedures are actually hitting the goal might have something to do with Te-DS I agree.

[Lobo]

He might be the people-pleaser sub-type. Or, certain people, anyway.

I personally feel like I am way too naive in my business approaches. I'm pretty trusting, tending to automatically believe that everyone is genuine and well-intentioned. I want to like people; and I am happy when they like me back. Thus I am often open and giving, especially when given questions or requests.

This attitude, while ideal for me - I feel it's probably a little dangerous. Especially since I'm running my own business. Happily, thus far I've been alright and have not been obviously taken advantage of.

But I guess since I can face that it's a weakness, as the second post pointed out, that gives me a little more control over it. With regard to accounting I was "bad" at it for awhile, and I still don't consider it my favorite, but building up a routine has helped as well as my instinctual love for order, so now my finances are relatively organized.


Anyway, I don't think I actually have anything useful to say here. I don't know what the socionic difference between you and your boss is. Just wanted to chip in how some of this resonated with me.

Thing is you're probably not half as paranoid as I am when it comes to trusting strangers, lol. I like people too for the most part, but I understand how they can act differently than how I'd expect them too. It's like I'm bombarded with possibilities of how things can turn out for better or for worse.

Or your boss is merely an idiot.

Except it's not.

He's not stupid. What I meant was that ISFjs will not stray away from ways of doing things that have worked for them before. INFjs being Ne-creative are more likely to try/consider different procedures.

Him getting mad when people don't act according to his standards is likely cuz he is boss. I mean isn't that what bosses are supposed to do, set standards and then enforce certain order? That his standards are unrealistic might be because he is not a super intelligent guy. Alternatively, he has reasons for doing things that are not clear to you at this point, so you think that he is doing something stupid when in reality what he is doing actually works. Not checking whether his procedures are actually hitting the goal might have something to do with Te-DS I agree.

I don't agree with that notion about how bosses are supposed to be . I'll give you an example of his standards: He bitched at me once because I couldn't get an appointment with Bob, again threatening me, that it's my job to do things at all costs "and not rely solely on e-mails and phone calls." How else am I going to get the appointment if not by e-mails and phone calls? I even drove to his office and he wasn't there. His reprimands are borderline crazy at times, and then when you don't solve the issue he uses disappointment in you as a way to make you feel bad.

[silke]

I don't agree with that notion about how bosses are supposed to be . I'll give you an example of his standards: He bitched at me once because I couldn't get an appointment with Bob, again threatening me, that it's my job to do things at all costs "and not rely solely on e-mails and phone calls." How else am I going to get the appointment if not by e-mails and phone calls? I even drove to his office and he wasn't there. His reprimands are borderline crazy at times, and then when you don't solve the issue he uses disappointment in you as a way to make you feel bad.

I guess you're supposed to do it by carefully inquiring about Bob's home address and then stalking him at his house every time your boss needs an appointment Inability to clearly define your role and responsibilities may have something to do with Te-DS but I am not sure, haven't had much experience with ISPjs in authoritative positions to say whether they tend to behave like this. Static types do tend to have more of this "I want what I want" approach when dealing with others like you describe of your boss. How sure are you that he is ISFj by the way?

[Azeroffs]

If someone asks me what they should do in a given situation, I'll usually 1st ask what they want. Or if I know them well enough, I can help infer what might be genuinely suitable for them.

Often people flail around looking for courses of action, without a reasonable idea of what end they're aiming for, or whether the outcome is aligned with what they truly want to happen. But once desire is clarified and committed to, the will follows and the means to get there tend to avail themselves.

Ah yeah, you made it sound like you were telling people what they should want.

[ashlesha]

something that i absolutely couldn't stand was in a work situation where i was regularly given fuzzy goals with no suggestion for how to implement or standard for when it was reached. like being told to "be more efficient" and then working to find ways to increase efficiency and being told "you're about halfway to where we want you to be, keep it up." is this related to this procedural/Te DS thing or does everyone hate it? i felt like i was just being strung along.

i find step-by-step procedural instructions quite helpful when i am first learning something but i don't want to be tied to them if i find a way of doing things that i prefer. i find that procedures tend to get outgrown as you get used to doing something. but i don't find them completely useless, especially in the beginning.

[Suz]

something that i absolutely couldn't stand was in a work situation where i was regularly given fuzzy goals with no suggestion for how to implement or standard for when it was reached. like being told to "be more efficient" and then working to find ways to increase efficiency and being told "you're about halfway to where we want you to be, keep it up." is this related to this procedural/Te DS thing or does everyone hate it? i felt like i was just being strung along.

i find step-by-step procedural instructions quite helpful when i am first learning something but i don't want to be tied to them if i find a way of doing things that i prefer. i find that procedures tend to get outgrown as you get used to doing something. but i don't find them completely useless, especially in the beginning.

Oh yeah i relate somewhat. All I know is that everytime i was told i'm not efficient I felt defensive and insulted, and I would explain my inefficiency away with how I'm trying to be detailed and how quality cannot be rushed. But when i see useful examples of how to be more efficient I'm really thankful and waste no time incorporating those things into my work practice. I any suggestions about how to make my workflow easier (without sacrificing quality, of course!)

[Lobo]

I guess you're supposed to do it by carefully inquiring about Bob's home address and then stalking him at his house every time your boss needs an appointment

Lol, I bet he would do something like that if under enough stress.

Inability to clearly define your role and responsibilities may have something to do with Te-DS but I am not sure, haven't had much experience with ISPjs in authoritative positions to say whether they tend to behave like this. Static types do tend to have more of this "I want what I want" approach when dealing with others like you describe of your boss. How sure are you that he is ISFj by the way?

I couldn't agree/disagree with you on an example of Te-DS, since I honestly don't understand the nature of the 5th function and how you can then plug in a function there. However, I can say what doesn't ring true for me. I was actually bothered that he didn't have a detailed job description for me, and he seems to add to it as he goes along. I'm at a point right now where I don't just want to follow what a socionics definition says, but to actually validate it with experiences irl.

For the longest time I thought he was INFj. He was my professor for some time, and it didn't really allow me to get to know him that much. His persona during classes was very non-conflict, spiritual, and zen-like. I've had experiences before with female ISFjs who weren't like that at all, and very confrontational, and it seemed to cloud my perception of the type in general. I'm not taking into account a really crazy case: my ESI grade-school teacher. Among the messed up things she did, she got pissed at me once for accidentally dropping a glue gun close to her womb, and asked me: "do you want me to lose my baby?" .

Anyway, I felt similar to him for the most part, that I understood his way of being, the way he carried himself. It was when I started working under him that I realized just how different we were... His background has always been different than mine, him being Chinese and Amitabha Buddhist, etc, non-type factors. But, the way we go about doing things seems foreign to me. He ends up bulldozing through things, even though he always claims that we should follow a standard when it comes to doing tasks. His motto of getting things done in whichever way possible is definitely not something I would agree to. I'm more oriented towards reaching a goal with some "finesse" and efficiency, modifying and designing a process so that we don't waste unnecessary time and money. In his case, he just wants to get the job done, so it's like he doesn't take the time to evaluate how he does things. The end-result is the most important thing, without considering all the consequences in his methods up to that point.

The Fi-leading comes out when he modifies his code of conduct and ethical standards to favor him when he's in an uncomfortable situation, and uses Fi kung-fu to put things on you "just because," with no reasoning other than what he feels at the time. It's uncomfortable to watch because I've been guilty of doing that too.

It just depends on what the process is aiming for. INFjs want this state of perfect harmony. ISFjs want their own plans to be fulfilled.

If by "harmony" you mean fluid and cost-efficient process, then it applies to me.

If anything, it would be the other way around. Being an Involutory (Result) type, ISFjs would be less inclined towards procedural behavior. Whereas INFjs are Evolutory (Process) types, making them more inclined towards stepwise procedural methods.

I'm not really convinced of that Renin Dichotomy. In any case, if ISFjs are really focused on the result, rather than the procedure to get to that result, wouldn't they just stick to something they know gets them to the result? That's what I was getting at. It's also applicable to my boss. I talked about this above, in response to siuntal. Actually, now I'm realizing that I didn't give much attention to the "correct procedure" bit of crazedratshadow's post. I had understood it to just mean a procedure that has been shown to get you to the result, rather than THE correct and best procedure.

I would emphatically disagree that has anything to do with that.

I disagree now with what I said about Ne-creatives more likely to try different ideas, but I still see entertaining new ideas and potential as having to do with though. I've known two ISFjs, including my boss, who come up with crazy and almost out-of-this-world ideas on how to get to a result, and want to try it out. However, I notice that they tend to be unrealistic/impractical, or don't consider a wider range of possibilities, or how things can go wrong throughout. It seems like their desire to think of possibilities is based from a desire to be irrational, rather than considering how those ideas make sense and can actually be done. With my boss he seems to put the work of figuring out how to do things on other people, but when he comes up with some crazy way of doing it, it's kind of awkward for him to defend the idea in the midst of other ideas being thrown in the mix. It quickly goes to "Hmmm, ok, you do it."

[Aiss]

FWIW, I tend to agree that Te - at least -Te, Gamma Te, Te + Ni, however you call it - has something to do with finding an efficient way to reach a goal, optimizing it. The key word being "finding", not there being a method. Set procedures seem like an extremely poor substitute for Te, *possibly* useful for those who lack it - but it seems everyone hates them anyway, so I don't know. I think Te types tend to see ready-made procedures and solutions as useless mostly because they believe they could be far more efficient in any specific situation without being limited by these.

Not sure about how Delta Te differs, but if I were to extrapolate, it would be probably less goal oriented and more open-ended (Ne > Se). Te + Si, optimizing the way of doing things while remaining fairly open and accepting (Fi + Ne) of where it takes them. However, I don't know if it would make them more likely to create/apply procedures or not. On one hand it seems that yes, doing things a certain way rather than aiming at a certain goal would be an essence of "procedural", due to less specific requirements and more room to reuse; on the other hand, lack of clearly expressed goal gives it a degree of freedom.

And yes, I disagree with the idea that process/result has to do with this difference; that is rather Si/Ne vs Se/Ni, IMO. It's probably one of the worst-defined Reinin dichotomies, while we're at it; Gulenko's interpretation of it makes far more sense:

I will frame this dichotomy in the second sense, namely as simplification vs. complication of thought structure. Meaning that in deductive thinking, given a set of simple and obvious statements (axioms, postulates), the resultant consequences can be necessarily derived (theorem). Reasoning flows in the direction of simple to complex. Evolutionary [process] types therefore mentally complicate the situation.

In inductive thinking reasoning proceeds the other way around. Observing and comprehending complex phenomena, inductive thinking reduces them to generalized diagrams and models stripped of details. Involutionary [result] types break down and simplify the situation in order to understand it. Reasoning flows in reverse order from complex to simple.

None of it has to do with goals and procedures. None.

[silke]

Anyway, I felt similar to him for the most part, that I understood his way of being, the way he carried himself. It was when I started working under him that I realized just how different we were... His background has always been different than mine, him being Chinese and Amitabha Buddhist, etc, non-type factors. But, the way we go about doing things seems foreign to me. He ends up bulldozing through things, even though he always claims that we should follow a standard when it comes to doing tasks. His motto of getting things done in whichever way possible is definitely not something I would agree to. ... I'm more oriented towards reaching a goal with some "finesse" and efficiency, modifying and designing a process so that we don't waste unnecessary time and money.

It sounds like you're getting some PoLR hits from him. The "bulldozing" is likely his creative Se which would irk you to see him force it through. He probably appears to be 'sloppy' in the way he does things.

I also don't think that Te is what leads to establishing and following protocols. Te is a judging IE so I'd think that it would simply judge whether a particular goal is worth achieving, help prioritize. The how-to imho is up to perceiving functions. The people who tend to request the step-by-step procedures and explanations from me and favor following established protocols tend to be Si-egos. You're probably looking for some Si from him while he is 'bulldozing' his way through with Se.

... I've known two ISFjs, including my boss, who come up with crazy and almost out-of-this-world ideas on how to get to a result, and want to try it out. However, I notice that they tend to be unrealistic/impractical, or don't consider a wider range of possibilities, or how things can go wrong throughout. It seems like their desire to think of possibilities is based from a desire to be irrational, rather than considering how those ideas make sense and can actually be done. With my boss he seems to put the work of figuring out how to do things on other people, but when he comes up with some crazy way of doing it, it's kind of awkward for him to defend the idea in the midst of other ideas being thrown in the mix. It quickly goes to "Hmmm, ok, you do it."

This is something that I have also noticed about ISFjs, that they will just believe in something (mobilizing Ni?) but when if I ask them to reason through a particular idea or belief they won't actually do it, just kind of insist it is so. That's where they need the help of their dual to explain which of these ideas won't work (creative Ni).

[Lobo]

Thanks for the replies, though the only thing so far that is somewhat in agreement is that Te-DS is related to favoring procedure. I've been thinking that Te-DS is just looking for external validation of Te, rather than some kind of action in particular.

[rat1]

I can see this being the case for ISFjs more than for INFjs though.

It just depends on what the process is aiming for. INFjs want this state of perfect harmony. ISFjs want their own plans to be fulfilled.