Fiona Apple

[thePirate]

What exactly are you defining Fi as when you say she has unvalued Fi? ILIs aren't exactly dynamic unethical introverts. I don't see anything hinting at Fe valuing or what's all that Fe about her. She seems to have some typical Fe-PoLR problems, and makes perfect use of Te creative.

I don't think you are using the definition of ethics as seen in socionics - what does the statement I put in bold even mean? I don't think that's a good justification for anything, there's a clear difference between ethicals and logicals - surely you are not correlating ethics with 'morality' as every type has their own code...As far as Fe valuing, I find it more than just a little puzzling that you don't see Fe - her quotes are focused on ethical aspects, her interviews, its her way of being, how she uses phrases and how she interacts - I would go into depth explaining but to go as far as to confuse an Fe ego with Fe PoLR, it would be a bit much.

What are these Fe PoLR problems you see, and how do you see perfect use of her Te creative?

Of the ones there… Tupac and Cobain are definite INFps. Jim Morrison is some Beta but I'm not sure which. Michael Jackson might be INFp but he's hard to type. I still think Eminem is faux-Beta. Best I can figure for Jimi Hendrix is INTp and I know Bob Dylan's ISFj as fuck.



Yeah, sounds mostly like talk of emotional histrionics and shit that would bore me to tears.



Gammas aren't "morally stiff."

I put it in quotes because I feel gammas can be considered in that light under certain circumstances (although they aren't necessarily like that or always like that) whereas fiona doesn't show a trace; as in I could see why one might call a gamma that but it would be unreasonable to say that about her.

[xerx]

Gammas do have a tendency to forcefully abide by their value systems, which can come off as self-righteous and morally stiff to other quadras. The same way Betas can forcefully abide by their own ideological systems. Gammas are quite capable of being very judgmental about other people's values .

I don't see why this is so controversial. If it's accepted that Beta's can be rigid in their beliefs, why isn't it accepted in Gamma's? Both are quadras.

Obviously the extent to which any of this is true will depend on the person should be taken into consideration along with other criteria when typing, but if you don't find even a hint of it, you should probably consider other possibilities as well.

[mfckr]

Because to me 'morality' typically conveys connotations of an 'ethical' code that comes from outside of the self, that the person's essentially indoctrinated with through religion or some other dogma, along with a mandate prescribing that everyone else should believe/behave the same ways.

It isn't like that at all. Yeah, values tend to be pretty serious for Gamma and of the highest importance—vital to life itself, even. But it's a code that comes from within, that applies only to one's self and is hence only true in context to the self. I don't expect anyone else to live by my expectations and I won't judge them as less for not doing so (though if they infringe on mine, we're going to have a problem). If I don't like another person's standards, I simply don't allow close relations with them—or if its bad enough, I'll avoid dealing with them entirely. Which doesn't necessarily involve a judgment of that person being good or bad (though some people are inherently good, some inherently bad). They're just different, and perhaps in a way that's bad for me personally. In which case it's pragmatic that I shouldn't waste time dealing with them because nothing of constructive worth is going to come out of it—in any personal/emotional/spiritual sense or what have you.

[717495]

Gammas do have a tendency to forcefully abide by their value systems, which can come off as self-righteous and morally stiff to other quadras. The same way Betas can forcefully abide by their own ideological systems. Gammas are quite capable of being very judgmental about other people's values .

I don't see why this is so controversial. If it's accepted that Beta's can be rigid in their beliefs, why isn't it accepted in Gamma's? Both are quadras.

Obviously the extent to which any of this is true will depend on the person should be taken into consideration along with other criteria when typing, but if you don't find even a hint of it, you should probably consider other possibilities as well.

This is pretty much true. I guess to me Beta Fe always has a way of being more purposeful than Gamma's Fi (which is more ideological in a quadral nature, not to say Fi ego isn't purposeful. it's just not thrown about how Fe is.), and at the same time Gamma's Te seems more purposeful than Beta's Ti. Though those are basically placing the functions themselves without the Ni/Se tinge. IEIs have a way of tapping more into Fi than EIEs do, especially in order to defend their Fe. But for ILIs, Fi is always an ethical necessity.

[golden]

Yeah, Beta looks/feels more synthetic and mechanical to me. They use emotions and emotional influence as a means to an end, and they do so deliberately. It seems wrong to me and I can't help but resent it; they really are like soulless robots in that way. I can't help but whenever someone's going on about how idealistic and passionate Beta is, when really the quadra is just full of fakeass pretentious bullshit.

THANKS

[Blaze]

Gammas do have a tendency to forcefully abide by their value systems, which can come off as self-righteous and morally stiff to other quadras. The same way Betas can forcefully abide by their own ideological systems. Gammas are quite capable of being very judgmental about other people's values .

I don't see why this is so controversial. If it's accepted that Beta's can be rigid in their beliefs, why isn't it accepted in Gamma's? Both are quadras.

Obviously the extent to which any of this is true will depend on the person should be taken into consideration along with other criteria when typing, but if you don't find even a hint of it, you should probably consider other possibilities as well.

i knew there was a reason i liked betas. and yeah agree with what you're saying.

every quadra is rigid about something, evil about something, loose about something, pedantic about something, pretentious about something....the list could go on.

that said fiona apple is awesome. she helped get me through my divorce. i used to sit in front of my computer and play her songs really loud and cry. if that's not Fe in the ego what the hell is.

[717495]

Not sure what point you're trying to make. I don't see any of that as being necessarily indicative of Fe creative, pirate. She's much more alike to ILIs, even in the style of expressiveness and playfulness she has.

Poli confuses his own pathetic whinyass, blubbery, butthurt nature with being "Fe PoLR", and on account of her being female+his benefactor he probably feels sentimentally moved by her (though she doesn't come off like he does) to a point that he overly-identifies with her person.

Do you always just make things up as you go?

There may even be others but I'm not aware of them(Bob Dylan?).

Bob Dylan is a great example of an IEI. Everything he says is Fe tinged Ni.

[717495]

About you being a whinebag? No, that's obvious judging by your recent arguments.

About the thing I said of people sometimes being prone to overly-identify with their benefactor, no I'm not making that up and I've observed that trend manifesting in many Benefit pairs.

It was a rhetorical question.

You're only saying that right now just to be an asshole.

Bob Dylan's actually a great example of someone who'd come across "morally stiff" in the way I think thePirate was talking about.

I wouldn't say Bob Dylan is really morally stiff, unless you change the whole definition of what that means. He comes across like that sometimes...but typically IEIs will be more attentive to Fi than EIEs are. He's definitely an Fe creative--your dual.

[thePirate]

Not sure what point you're trying to make. I don't see any of that as being necessarily indicative of Fe creative, pirate. She's much more alike to ILIs, even in the style of expressiveness and playfulness she has.

well, I don't agree with this as I see her level of emotionality and energy and overall vibe done match that for me, but that difference in perception I don't think can really be argued on this level, so to this I ask again:

What are these Fe PoLR problems you see, and how do you see perfect use of her Te creative?

EDIT: Sapphoo <3

[HERO]

ESTP

Robert Christgau: CG: fiona apple

"Extraordinary Machine [Clean Slate/Epic, 2005]
Instead of delivering the music a sharp-tongued breakup record by an empowered young female would imply--if not folk-rock plain and simple, then emotional piano-woman pop--Apple adapts Broadway show tune to confessional mode. Although Mike Elizondo adds momentum, Jon Brion's colors still predominate, and the melodic and structural contours are all Apple's. Ira Gershwin she's not; Betty Comden she's not either. But she wouldn't be half as inspiring if they were what she was aiming for. A-"