Can you really be this stupid? Really?
Can you really be this stupid? Really?
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
...
How can't you see how it would?? If we know both the people I get along with and those I dont, then its easier to systematize the type
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
So, you're not only saying that you should use intertype relations to type people... but also that you should use the type of a person who is not a clear representation of a type, whatever it may be, to type another person who is also not a clear representation of whatever type that person may be?
Can we just ignore Joy in this thread and get on with a constructive typing?
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
You can ignore me whenever and where ever you please.
Tee hee.Originally Posted by Gilly
I see. It's very blurry for me though. I am not, at this point in time, one or the other.We have a page on that, too:
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t..._and_democracy
A SLE may well think of a group as being "himself" and the "tag-alongs", not really a "group".
Joy reckons she's an 8 ENTj. That is bullshit.You see? It should be very clear what this has to do with my type. They both are the supoosedly the same type as you, and my relation with them is different.What does that have to do with your type?Somebody puts in perispective of me being ESTp why everything Joy says annoys my mind, whereas almost everything Expat and Smilingeyes say i agree with
When did I say that?
You've said you're ENTj on this board before. If not, what type are you? (Please don't give me any "I am not ENTj" and then don't provide another type crap.)
On EIDB, you have also said that you're an 8. Again, if not, what type are you?
I have said I was ENTj on this board in the past... a while ago. But this thread is not about my type, Socionics or Enneagram.
you, otoh, always make perfect sense, actually.Tee hee.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
to you
no, no, generally; if you want, by formal logic. Which is universal.to you
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
You just had to not answer the question, didn't you.
We've been over this before. Just because something does not make sense to one person does not mean that it does not make sense at all. If you don't understand something that someone says, that doesn't mean that it is un-understandable.no, no, generally; if you want, by formal logic. Which is universal.to you
It doesn't make any logical sense. That's what I mean.We've been over this before. Just because something does not make sense to one person does not mean that it does not make sense at all. If you don't understand something that someone says, that doesn't mean that it is un-understandable.no, no, generally; if you want, by formal logic. Which is universal.to you
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
to you
Please, Joy. Logic is universal. If somebody wants to come here and translate your language into one that is logically coherent so that I can understand what you mean, I'd be pleased.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
lol
hurting someone's feelings is a quick way to victory for some situations, people. Se types love winning. If they don't see it that way it is because the victory and silencing of others is their goal, and the method is less important. the word 'solely' should be removed. There is a goal, generally.I don't think the SLEs see it this way. And how do you explain that functionally?
asd
I think Rick and heath are talking of different situations.
Rick talked about this in London -- SLEs often make remarks that sound like insults, and some people do take them as insults, but most often they do not intend to hurt people; they are "getting the ball moving" as per my metaphor. They expect others to respond in kind, in the same spirit. Of course other types who don't appreciate this behavior will get offended, or say nothing, making the SLE try again because they're not really understanding the other person's PoV (PoLR).
heath, however, means their behavior when they are indeed hurting people since they see themselves in a power fight of some kind, and then they will be as hurtful as possible.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
That's why it's good practice to tell SLEs how you feel.I think Rick and heath are talking of different situations.
Rick talked about this in London -- SLEs often make remarks that sound like insults, and some people do take them as insults, but most often they do not intend to hurt people; they are "getting the ball moving" as per my metaphor. They expect others to respond in kind, in the same spirit. Of course other types who don't appreciate this behavior will get offended, or say nothing, making the SLE try again because they're not really understanding the other person's PoV (
heath, however, means their behavior when they are indeed hurting people since they see themselves in a power fight of some kind, and then they will be as hurtful as possible.
and SLE's would not throw insults around if they thought it would disrupt their power base with others in anyway. they can be pretty diplomatic when they want to. (more than entp's for sure)I think Rick and heath are talking of different situations.
Rick talked about this in London -- SLEs often make remarks that sound like insults, and some people do take them as insults, but most often they do not intend to hurt people; they are "getting the ball moving" as per my metaphor. They expect others to respond in kind, in the same spirit. Of course other types who don't appreciate this behavior will get offended, or say nothing, making the SLE try again because they're not really understanding the other person's PoV (
heath, however, means their behavior when they are indeed hurting people since they see themselves in a power fight of some kind, and then they will be as hurtful as possible.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Yeah excellent point. I think people automatically assume anyone they've met that was pushy, bossy or annoying was an ESTp. Sometimes that's just so...wrong, and short-sighted. ESTps can be very calm, though theis always evident it's not something to be afraid of.
You know damn well people view ESTp as the big mean jock with a tattoo and the INFj as the meek little angelic boy that gets picked on lol.
Re: FDG's type one more round
I don't know what FDG's type is, but he's very likable, regardless.
I believe I'm an ENTj Ni subtype.
I just came back from the graduation of a childhood friend of my ISxj girlfriend. I didn't know him before. She anticipated though "I'm sure you two will be on the same wavelength". She knows about socionics and she said me she already knew we were very clearly the same type.
After awhile, everybody started commenting on how much we were alike. Notice that I knew nobody except my girlfriend, there. I caught his ISFj mother asking his father "my dear, did we have two twins and we didn't notice"?
The guy's Si PoLR was not so obvious, but noticeable. His clothing always looked work; even when discussing his dissertation, even if he had never used it before. He then went around semi-naked - as it's usually done around here after graduating -; he didn't seem uncomfortable, but when he stopped for a while to talk with a girl he knew, he immediately asked for something to cover himself, clearly embarrassed.
We talked for a while, and we agreed on everything. We made some sexual jokes at the exact same instants reacting exactly the same way to the same event. We even walked the same way and had exactly the same kind of smile. Hell, we even have exactly the same body-type and facial features and exactly the same height.
He made a fool of himself most of the time, as I usually do, but he was graduating at the top of his class.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Well, so there is evidence that you two are of the same type, but why necessarily ENTj-Ni? Because of Si PoLR? Also, if you are physically alike, that would make people make comments on "twins" without necessarily your being of the same type (I know there is other evidence, just pointing this out).
Also, don't you identify very strongly with EP temperament? That seems to be one of the strongest and most consistent things about you.
If we go via Reinin dichotomies, ENTj-Ni puts you at a peak of Resolute (check) but also a peak of Victim -- wouldn't you say you are more clearly an Aggressor? Sure, you can find items in Victim you identify with, but on the whole, isn't Aggressor your best fit?
I'm pointing out some of the things to consider.
Does this mean that Ashton is ENTj Ni too?
*shock*
Not so sure about this conclusion ...
Eheh, there aren't many other types out there to consider. I can't see ESTp for him for a variety of reasons, mainly all the descriptions, the positivism vs negativism, the relationships (most people there looked gamma to me), the atmosphere, the interests - I will try to explain better
These are good points, especially the part about aggressor-victim. Although what I have seen with my own eyes today is hard not to consider.Also, don't you identify very strongly with EP temperament? That seems to be one of the strongest and most consistent things about you.
If we go via Reinin dichotomies, ENTj-Ni puts you at a peak of Resolute (check) but also a peak of Victim -- wouldn't you say you are more clearly an Aggressor? Sure, you can find items in Victim you identify with, but on the whole, isn't Aggressor your best fit?
I'm pointing out some of the things to consider.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
A long time ago in a faraway thread (while FDG still was ENTj) he boldly claimed something like "I'm a victim type. There is no question about it". So he has swinged between victim and aggressor. He hasn't been consistent. Perhaps, once he decided he is ESTp instead, his Se and aggressor nature got a little out of hands but is now returning back to "normal" levelsOr not...who knows
It's not like I calibrate my real life behaviour over the type I am, hey? I've been behaving the same way since I started being here.A long time ago in a faraway thread (while FDG still was ENTj) he boldly claimed something like "I'm a victim type. There is no question about it". So he has swinged between victim and aggressor. He hasn't been consistent. Perhaps, once he decided he is ESTp instead, his Se and aggressor nature got a little out of hands but is now returning back to "normal" levels
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Well (apologies if I touch on a delicate subject) I think he identifying with Victim was "encouraged" to one specific relationship, with an Aggressor; then I think it's easy to mix the two.It's not like I calibrate my real life behaviour over the type I am, hey? I've been behaving the same way since I started being here.A long time ago in a faraway thread (while FDG still was ENTj) he boldly claimed something like "I'm a victim type. There is no question about it". So he has swinged between victim and aggressor. He hasn't been consistent. Perhaps, once he decided he is ESTp instead, his Se and aggressor nature got a little out of hands but is now returning back to "normal" levels
It's not really delicate, but I like both to bite and to be bitten...is that a socionics crime?
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Which parts of this are indicative that he (or you) is ENTj? (Being embarrassed about talking to a girl when you're half naked and surrounded by onlookers isn't necessarily related to a Si PoLR.)
As far as a Si PoLR, do you relate to Stratiyevskaya's description of Si in ENTjs?
I'm pretty sure he had the same Si PoLR Expat described in regards to his business suits, really. It was exactly the same problem.
Nothing of that is indicative of him being ENTj, but should I really give a list?
Anyway:
Nah, I'm comfortable in my body.The ENTj frequently experiences the sensation of discomfort with himself and with his surroundings. In his motions frequently it is observed the constraint, and sometimes also [ --]. Angularity and tension in combination with the awkwardness.
I don't think so.
The LIE is irritated, when discomfort is experienced. He is irritated because shames him. He does not understand, why, for example, manifesting endurance in the extreme situations, under the normal conditions he becomes receptive to such trifles.
Sometimes I don't know what causes a state I have. For example, I'd say "I am sweating a lot" while a sweatshirt, and at the suggestion of "you can take away your sweat" i'd be like "oh, I didn't think about it". I don't know if this is related.He badly feels the measure for its sensations. Therefore to himit is necessary the partner, who would feel this for him, which would know his tastes, his habits; which previously troubled about what sensations ENTj experiences in following second.
I don't really understand what this means.
About himself the ENTj cannot care, and for this very reason concern from the side of partner must be maximally farsighted. It is important so that to the ENTj would be created all conditions for valuable leisure. It does not have value, it was occupied today by work or the whole day nothing made, but even if he recently awoke and immediately he went to watch TV, one ought not to grumble: it means, for it is now necessary "recharging" by some new impressions and by new information. Furthermore, precisely, in the period of the "forced hibernation" the ENTj experiences the strong uneasiness and stress.
When in his normal, "business regime", he generally very rarely makes possible for himself to rest and to be relaxed. Therefore, if ENTj is already prepared to leisure, it is not necessary to strain him: this greatly irritates him. It is not possible to move him from the place to the place, when he already rests (?), it is not possible to distract him at this moment by conversations or to call to the telephone. (although at the work site he can eat and work simultaneously.)
Aahahaaa, the last part is so true, but I think it'd be true for everybody. It sometimes happens when I come back from training during the winter.When the ENTj worries about himself, he does not relax. For him the concern about himself - this is only excess and not always expedient work, since in private life he is very unpretentious and can manage without much. However, assuming the concern of partner, the LIE seemingly calculates, that they will help him to be relaxed. Therefore he reacts very painfully to the least manifestation of discomfort. For example, the absence of hot water in the military facilities - this is normal, but the absence of hot water in his house at the moment of his arrival from the work - serious disappointment (why is it so important to ISFj to always know the time of his arrival from the work? - so that in this moment there would be always hot water and hot dinner, so that all matters in the house would be already finished and so that nothing it would prevent the ENTj from quietly resting.)
[ Many representatives of this type, even with the classical beautiful appearance, consider themselves unattractive. Considering their face plain (moreover, completely undeservedly), they can hide it under the enormous black glasses, so that for all does remain riddle [--]
Most likely, this is - myth. The ENTj almost never is confident in his own taste, in the aesthetic value of his appearance, in the manners of his behavior, which, incidentally, leads to the excessive shyness, "prickliness". Badly he feels arrangement or hostile attitude to himself of those surrounding. He is not confident, which can cause sympathies or be dear (and its this colossal error!). Nor he appreciates he attractiveness. He has no special liking for himself.[/quote]
This was more the case when I was younger. Now I've gotten more confident in my apperance.
Who doesn't?In the holiday, ceremonial- official situation he feels itself bound. It is good for him, where the situation does not require parade and ceremonies: on nature, in the scaffolding, in the march, where they are permitted simple sport clothing, the natural behavior, which prevents affectation.
I think people of lower social status are more natural and sincere.Sometimes the aesthetical self-appraisal of the LIE is so understated that he prefers to surround itself by clearly waning people, sometimes even with the physical deviations. Or he prefers rough, cheap pleasures in the company of people of understated social status.
I think I've gotten better at this with time.Disorder in private life does not interfere with the ENTj. He is indifferent to the aesthetical qualities of things. Frequently in his clothing any aesthetical illogicality is present. Knowing this deficiency, ENTjs greatly do not love, when they are scrutinized into that. Therefore the ISFj never looks at the ENTj with her "penetrating" view (ISFj is generally not on the close psychological distance with those at whom they look in that manner) and never she makes observations relative to deficiencies in the ENTj’s appearance and clothing - she can either sincerely sympathize with him, dressed inconveniently or propose their participation in the solution of this problem, but criticize she will not, if he, of course, about this do not ask.
The manifestation of the concern about himself the ENTj receives as the expression of a good relationship. Only with this partner he properly relaxes, only to her he properly entrusts.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
The periods of "forced hibernation" is a HUGE aspect of having a Si PoLR (and something that I can't see Se dominants having problems with all that often).
Here's a further translation of part of the description:
They are not good at measuring and judging sensations. This is why it is helpful for them to have a partner who knows their tastes and habits better than they do, and who will remember which things have caused them discomfort in the past. Their ideal partner will also be farsighted enough to help them prevent burn out. They're not good at taking time out of their schedule for rest and leisure. They generally don't take the time to rest until they have to because they've worn themselves out. During these periods of down time, they usually watch TV or spend time online. Even then, they may be resting, but they are not relaxing. During these periods of "forced hibernation" they feel a strong sense of uneasiness and stress.
It's important to understand that they dislike taking time away from accomplishing things, so if they're at the point where they are willing to actually take time out and rest, it's because they have to, and it's not a good idea to pressure them to do things or be more active. When they're resting, it greatly irritates them if they're asked to run errands or do chores. It may also be difficult to get or hold their attention when trying to communicate with them during their down time. They may even stop answering the phone. (However, under normal circumstances, they tend to do a few different things at the same time.)
They don't usually worry about their physical needs and comfort when they're working or trying to get something accomplished. In their mind, it only slows them down. Similarly, they can get by without much at home, as they are very unpretentious and do not see a need to concern themselves with aesthetics and comfort. However, when they're in a caring relationship, they will anticipate that their partner is going to help them relax. In that situation, they will react strongly to even minor discomforts (they are not comfortable simply asking for help). To them, the ideal partner is someone who takes initiative and responsibility for things like dinner and household chores because they find it very stressful to deal with such matters, and having to worry about those things makes it even more difficult for them to relax (so they can in turn get more accomplished).
Sometimes I don't feel like working, but I feel like I should; however, I can't motivate myself to take the steps to start doing what I should.
Is this what you mean? I think every human being experiences something similar.
I think you focus too much on accomplishment. The russian description does not talk about accomplishment. I don't feel like accomplishment is a huge part of my life. Yes, I have my goals, and I'd like to reach them, however I'm sufficiently self confident about it not to need to think about it all the time.
I take time for rest, if you include "going out with friends" or "girlfriend" into it. Nobody can work all the time without leisure. It's also pointless to work if you cannot enjoy the fruits of your labor. I don't take time for rest in terms of sleeping. I don't find sleeping to be a satisfactory activity.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
FDG, right, I am clearly ESTp to the people on here who have been studying socionics for a long time. How well do you relate to my style? If not much or at all, you're probably not ESTp.
I will reserve ESFp as a possibility. Remember your talking about how you're good at womanising and getting girls to like you? Very Fi related, as if you look at Augusta's stuff on socionics.us about the information elements shows.
And I don't see any reason why you should be Te > Se. If anything Ne > Se, but this is not at all evident. You're too down-to-earth to be Ne; plus I don't catch an intuitive vibe from you at all, and never have. I don't think you're particularly Te either, tbh. You're not - how can I put this - logically- or informationally-inclined enough. You don't really care for information and aquisition of it and knowledge to be Te leading.
If you are indeed ESTp, I think you're a lot more Se than I am. I'm very little Se. As I've said before, Se is earthly; it is concerned with materialism more. What you said about all your stuff + womenseems very Se. I still see a fair few similarities between us, apart from that you're way more playful than I am. But IRL, I'm a lot more 7esque when I'm socially active, so I think we'd get along fine
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