Do Deltas withdraw from emotionally expressive people?

[golden]

The whole thing about Deltas having problems with emotionally expressice people is not so much the emotional expression, but the underlying intentions with those emotional expressions. Especially in the case of Beta, such expressions are considered by Deltas as boundary crossing behavior, and a forebode of more bad things to come. Deltas view Betas as people who act entitled in a way that puts Deltas at a disadvantage, and thus have the tendecy to withdraw from emotionally expressive people. Long story short: to Deltas, emotional expressiveness is a sign a bad things ahead, especially in a group setting.

This also explains why Deltas have less problems with the Fe from Alphas: Alphas emotional expression is not experienced as dangerous by Deltas.

Imo Fe is very plastic and will mold itself exactly to a person or situation in a way that must feel expressively invasive to someone who isn’t receptive to Fe.

By the same token, Delta Fi has often felt invasive to me because of evaluations over how I or others should or shouldn’t be, or a desire to get into my thoughts, which are entirely off-limits.

I care about what people do, in a way, but I don’t care how they arrange or manage their interior lives.

[Aramas]

Imo Fe is very plastic and will mold itself exactly to a person or situation in a way that must feel expressively invasive to someone who isn’t receptive to Fe.

By the same token, Delta Fi has often felt invasive to me because of evaluations over how I or others should or shouldn’t be, or a desire to get into my thoughts, which are entirely off-limits.

I care about what people do, in a way, but I don’t care how they arrange or manage their interior lives.

Deltas typically have a mixed view of sharing thoughts. That's the nature of the extroverted elements. Deltas can't really hold back their thoughts in the same way that Betas can. Betas also have this odd thing where they will not express their thoughts 99% of the time, and that 1% moment when they do is catastrophic-level honesty. It's those rare moments when Fe breaks and T is allowed full expression.

Deltas do the same with their feelings. Betas are always expressing their feelings in some way. Because their feelings aren't quite as intrinsic to their sense of identity, that part of them is much more malleable in social situations. The rare moments in which Deltas express how they really feel are a sight to behold. Conversely, they are always sharing their thoughts, which are adaptive to social situations at least to some degree. Betas don't like that, though, lol. Betas would prefer to share feels and keep thoughts to themselves. Until they get really close to you and decide that they want to get to know you very well. Then they switch on the Ti. In rare cases, Ti is expressed socially to put someone "back in line" when they've done something the Betas see as a critical error. This active state of Ti is meant to restore or recreate Fe.

Beta Ti when it's expressed often feels invasive to me too tbh. It's like, rather than telling you what to be, Betas want to tell you what you should think. I think this is because Betas find their thoughts more internally adjustable, which allows them to create whatever emotionality is necessary in a social situation. Betas can, in other words, simulate necessary thoughts to create certain feelings, even if they don't actually think them on their own. They view this behavior as giving respectful consideration to someone else's perspective, but the mechanics of what they are doing is actually beyond the ability of most Deltas and contrary to the healthy function of their psyches.

Deltas have a similar ability. They can actually alter their character in micro ways that gives them the power to adapt their behavior in social situations. Meanwhile, their internal character is somehow preserved in spite of the adaptation. Betas can't really adapt their own feelings or character in the same way. They require the external force of Fe to regulate their feelings. (Feelings and character are related.)

Betas, of course, just as Deltas typically view Beta Fe and Ti as a form of prevarication, see Delta Fi and Te the same way. They don't see Deltas as being honest about how they feel, because rather than allowing others to regulate their feelings for them, Deltas do that on their own. Meanwhile, Fi feels invasive to Betas because the subtle adaptation of Fi out of consideration for the feelings of others ends up creating a powerful yin effect that alters the feelings of Betas "from the inside." In other words, Fi creates a resonance of feeling, rather than a resonance of thought. The odd sensation of losing control over one's feelings, because the source of the feeling appears to be coming from within them rather than without, is destructive to a sense of identity. Betas are used to electric feeling and can do that all day. Magnetic feeling pulls at them from the inside in some really uncomfortable way, and that is seen as damaging to their identities. All the introverted elements have the capacity to create that insidious yin effect in the extroverted element of the same domain. This is why Fi feels invasive to Betas and Ti feels invasive to Deltas. Of course, the active state doesn't feel invasive in that micro insidious sort of way. The active state is obviously presented as an external influence. But then it just seems like autocratic dictatorship.

Contrary introverted elements are thus seen as manipulative, and contrary extroverted elements as barbaric.

The point of this post is to say that we all care about what other people do, otherwise we would never criticize them. We also all feel like we give others a necessary opportunity to have their interior lives. The problem is that we have different ideas of which aspects of our lives are to share and which to keep private. We all agree that different levels and kinds of honesty are required in different situations. We just disagree on which kinds and levels are required.

To give a simpler explanation, it's as if....
Deltas think you should be 50% honest with your thoughts all the time.
Betas think you should express your thoughts obliquely 99% of the time and with total honesty 1% of the time.

Deltas think conversely that you should only hint at what you feel most of the time, and be totally honest about your feelings only rarely. The key is the level of plasticity in each element and what degree of stimulus is required to control this plasticity. The introverted elements don't need as much of an external stimulus to adapt, and a larger one interferes with their function.

[Alonzo]

Deltas typically have a mixed view of sharing thoughts. That's the nature of the extroverted elements. Deltas can't really hold back their thoughts in the same way that Betas can. Betas also have this odd thing where they will not express their thoughts 99% of the time, and that 1% moment when they do is catastrophic-level honesty. It's those rare moments when Fe breaks and T is allowed full expression.

Deltas do the same with their feelings. Betas are always expressing their feelings in some way. Because their feelings aren't quite as intrinsic to their sense of identity, that part of them is much more malleable in social situations. The rare moments in which Deltas express how they really feel are a sight to behold. Conversely, they are always sharing their thoughts, which are adaptive to social situations at least to some degree. Betas don't like that, though, lol. Betas would prefer to share feels and keep thoughts to themselves. Until they get really close to you and decide that they want to get to know you very well. Then they switch on the Ti. In rare cases, Ti is expressed socially to put someone "back in line" when they've done something the Betas see as a critical error. This active state of Ti is meant to restore or recreate Fe.

Beta Ti when it's expressed often feels invasive to me too tbh. It's like, rather than telling you what to be, Betas want to tell you what you should think. I think this is because Betas find their thoughts more internally adjustable, which allows them to create whatever emotionality is necessary in a social situation. Betas can, in other words, simulate necessary thoughts to create certain feelings, even if they don't actually think them on their own. They view this behavior as giving respectful consideration to someone else's perspective, but the mechanics of what they are doing is actually beyond the ability of most Deltas and contrary to the healthy function of their psyches.

Deltas have a similar ability. They can actually alter their character in micro ways that gives them the power to adapt their behavior in social situations. Meanwhile, their internal character is somehow preserved in spite of the adaptation. Betas can't really adapt their own feelings or character in the same way. They require the external force of Fe to regulate their feelings. (Feelings and character are related.)

Betas, of course, just as Deltas typically view Beta Fe and Ti as a form of prevarication, see Delta Fi and Te the same way. They don't see Deltas as being honest about how they feel, because rather than allowing others to regulate their feelings for them, Deltas do that on their own. Meanwhile, Fi feels invasive to Betas because the subtle adaptation of Fi out of consideration for the feelings of others ends up creating a powerful yin effect that alters the feelings of Betas "from the inside." In other words, Fi creates a resonance of feeling, rather than a resonance of thought. The odd sensation of losing control over one's feelings, because the source of the feeling appears to be coming from within them rather than without, is destructive to a sense of identity. Betas are used to electric feeling and can do that all day. Magnetic feeling pulls at them from the inside in some really uncomfortable way, and that is seen as damaging to their identities. All the introverted elements have the capacity to create that insidious yin effect in the extroverted element of the same domain. This is why Fi feels invasive to Betas and Ti feels invasive to Deltas. Of course, the active state doesn't feel invasive in that micro insidious sort of way. The active state is obviously presented as an external influence. But then it just seems like autocratic dictatorship.

Contrary introverted elements are thus seen as manipulative, and contrary extroverted elements as barbaric.

Can you factor Gamma Quadra into this dynamic and speak to that, if possible, pretty please?

[Aramas]

Can you factor Gamma Quadra into this dynamic and speak to that, if possible, pretty please?

The difference between Delta and Gamma is the intuition and sensing axis. Deltas like NeSi and Gammas like NiSe.

All the general rules for understanding the differences in introverted and extroverted elements from the thinking and feeling axis also apply here.

Intuition is related to the ability to do what I call "ideation." In your mind, you can perhaps feel what a balloon feels like to touch. You might know that latex smells like. But the simple idea of a balloon that can call to mind the sensory memory of the balloons you've experienced in the past, and the ability to imagine balloons that are different from that, is related to intuition. I feel like intuition is the hardest to explain, so I'm going through all this before I talk about the differences.

The essential difference between Ne and Ni in practice is that Ne can handle multiple chains of ideational association at the same time. So they can switch back and forth between one chain and another, carrying on essentially multiple topics simultaneously. Ni, on the other hand, is serial, like I've described before. It handles one chain of abstract associations, ideas, themes, or topics at a time.

Ni types will view Ne types not necessarily as blunt per se, but as distracting. My ability to hold my train of thought is dependent on my intuition. Contrarily, Ni types prefer to express their ideas and worldviews and trains of thought obliquely to avoid distracting someone else. Doing so of course can have a rather strong yin effect on Ne, almost gravitationally pulling Ne into its desired direction through its subtlety, and Ne types prefer you display your train of thought and worldview up front.

The sensing part of the axis is similar. Gammas prefer strong sensory impulses, Se, and Si has a yin effect on Se. Se introduces a sensory impulse from outside, while Si on the other hand simply alters its sensory scanning pattern to include new stimuli. Types with weak but valued Se require strong sensory impulses to be able to sense the outside world. They cannot alter their own sensory scanning patterns to include new stimuli. Si for Gammas results in the same type of weird gravitation I mentioned above. Si can determine what Se will sense because of its ability to alter sensory scanning habits. So Se types will think of Si types as sneaky, because they don't introduce the strong sensory impulse they need to tell the Se type what they're up to. Of course, to Si types, they simply see their behavior as being considerate. I'm not making a lot of body language or being too loud, so I'm being nice to you. That's what they think. Se to them is distracting. It pulls them away from the cognitive world of ideas and interferes with Deltas ability to sense their own bodies as well as the world around them. They only require subtle sensory impulses to maintain their presence in the physical world.

So in spite of all the differences, how do you tell if someone is actually a fucked up asshole? Check and see if they can get along with people of their own quadra, accounting for major differences like religion and politics. If they can't do that, they probably have some issues.

Intuition is typically the least recognized and least understood of areas, so I probably didn't explain that as well as could be done.

Deltas will see Gammas as hiding their beliefs and worldviews, so they'll feel unsafe because they won't know if the "other" holds a contrary perspective. A lot of the fear of Islam in the West comes from the fact that the religion is typically held by Gammas. Gammas don't express their beliefs directly, and Deltas will antagonize them due to lacking a feeling of safety around them. You don't know what they're up to, so they could be up to anything.

The big problem with these issues is that when people feel slighted is when they usually start to feel like dominating others. People don't care about me, so why should I care about them? Most people who are not injured care about others. They just don't know how to care about others who are different from them. Misunderstanding produces pain and malice. The feeling usually runs, "I'm not getting what I need, so I'll take what I want."

[golden]

Deltas typically have a mixed view of sharing thoughts. That's the nature of the extroverted elements. Deltas can't really hold back their thoughts in the same way that Betas can. Betas also have this odd thing where they will not express their thoughts 99% of the time, and that 1% moment when they do is catastrophic-level honesty. It's those rare moments when Fe breaks and T is allowed full expression.

Deltas do the same with their feelings. Betas are always expressing their feelings in some way. Because their feelings aren't quite as intrinsic to their sense of identity, that part of them is much more malleable in social situations. The rare moments in which Deltas express how they really feel are a sight to behold. Conversely, they are always sharing their thoughts, which are adaptive to social situations at least to some degree. Betas don't like that, though, lol. Betas would prefer to share feels and keep thoughts to themselves. Until they get really close to you and decide that they want to get to know you very well. Then they switch on the Ti. In rare cases, Ti is expressed socially to put someone "back in line" when they've done something the Betas see as a critical error. This active state of Ti is meant to restore or recreate Fe.

Beta Ti when it's expressed often feels invasive to me too tbh. It's like, rather than telling you what to be, Betas want to tell you what you should think. I think this is because Betas find their thoughts more internally adjustable, which allows them to create whatever emotionality is necessary in a social situation. Betas can, in other words, simulate necessary thoughts to create certain feelings, even if they don't actually think them on their own. They view this behavior as giving respectful consideration to someone else's perspective, but the mechanics of what they are doing is actually beyond the ability of most Deltas and contrary to the healthy function of their psyches.

Deltas have a similar ability. They can actually alter their character in micro ways that gives them the power to adapt their behavior in social situations. Meanwhile, their internal character is somehow preserved in spite of the adaptation. Betas can't really adapt their own feelings or character in the same way. They require the external force of Fe to regulate their feelings. (Feelings and character are related.)

Betas, of course, just as Deltas typically view Beta Fe and Ti as a form of prevarication, see Delta Fi and Te the same way. They don't see Deltas as being honest about how they feel, because rather than allowing others to regulate their feelings for them, Deltas do that on their own. Meanwhile, Fi feels invasive to Betas because the subtle adaptation of Fi out of consideration for the feelings of others ends up creating a powerful yin effect that alters the feelings of Betas "from the inside." In other words, Fi creates a resonance of feeling, rather than a resonance of thought. The odd sensation of losing control over one's feelings, because the source of the feeling appears to be coming from within them rather than without, is destructive to a sense of identity. Betas are used to electric feeling and can do that all day. Magnetic feeling pulls at them from the inside in some really uncomfortable way, and that is seen as damaging to their identities. All the introverted elements have the capacity to create that insidious yin effect in the extroverted element of the same domain. This is why Fi feels invasive to Betas and Ti feels invasive to Deltas. Of course, the active state doesn't feel invasive in that micro insidious sort of way. The active state is obviously presented as an external influence. But then it just seems like autocratic dictatorship.

Contrary introverted elements are thus seen as manipulative, and contrary extroverted elements as barbaric.

The point of this post is to say that we all care about what other people do, otherwise we would never criticize them. We also all feel like we give others a necessary opportunity to have their interior lives. The problem is that we have different ideas of which aspects of our lives are to share and which to keep private. We all agree that different levels and kinds of honesty are required in different situations. We just disagree on which kinds and levels are required.

I think much of this is true and is a very good amplification and expansion of what I was getting at but over the years have tired of trying to express.

Interestingly to me, Gamma Fi doesn’t rub me so wrong, and I don’t necessarily mind what you refer to as magnetic resonance of feeling. It’s just that Gammas are less likely to misinterpret what I do and say, and Deltas will sometimes be quite sure about what I’m feeling and it is utterly, grossly incorrect. Yet when I say it’s incorrect, I am told I am wrong ... about my ... own ... feelings. And obviously things break down from there.

What I find Beta Ti does from my perspective is it seeks weaknesses in my ability to handle something, then gives me the pieces I need in order to handle it. There’s a process of dismantling that comes with that, and I can imagine it being quite unpleasant to some people.

[lemontrees]

Deltas typically have a mixed view of sharing thoughts. That's the nature of the extroverted elements. Deltas can't really hold back their thoughts in the same way that Betas can. Betas also have this odd thing where they will not express their thoughts 99% of the time, and that 1% moment when they do is catastrophic-level honesty. It's those rare moments when Fe breaks and T is allowed full expression.

Deltas do the same with their feelings. Betas are always expressing their feelings in some way. Because their feelings aren't quite as intrinsic to their sense of identity, that part of them is much more malleable in social situations. The rare moments in which Deltas express how they really feel are a sight to behold. Conversely, they are always sharing their thoughts, which are adaptive to social situations at least to some degree. Betas don't like that, though, lol. Betas would prefer to share feels and keep thoughts to themselves. Until they get really close to you and decide that they want to get to know you very well. Then they switch on the Ti. In rare cases, Ti is expressed socially to put someone "back in line" when they've done something the Betas see as a critical error. This active state of Ti is meant to restore or recreate Fe.

Beta Ti when it's expressed often feels invasive to me too tbh. It's like, rather than telling you what to be, Betas want to tell you what you should think. I think this is because Betas find their thoughts more internally adjustable, which allows them to create whatever emotionality is necessary in a social situation. Betas can, in other words, simulate necessary thoughts to create certain feelings, even if they don't actually think them on their own. They view this behavior as giving respectful consideration to someone else's perspective, but the mechanics of what they are doing is actually beyond the ability of most Deltas and contrary to the healthy function of their psyches.

Deltas have a similar ability. They can actually alter their character in micro ways that gives them the power to adapt their behavior in social situations. Meanwhile, their internal character is somehow preserved in spite of the adaptation. Betas can't really adapt their own feelings or character in the same way. They require the external force of Fe to regulate their feelings. (Feelings and character are related.)

Betas, of course, just as Deltas typically view Beta Fe and Ti as a form of prevarication, see Delta Fi and Te the same way. They don't see Deltas as being honest about how they feel, because rather than allowing others to regulate their feelings for them, Deltas do that on their own. Meanwhile, Fi feels invasive to Betas because the subtle adaptation of Fi out of consideration for the feelings of others ends up creating a powerful yin effect that alters the feelings of Betas "from the inside." In other words, Fi creates a resonance of feeling, rather than a resonance of thought. The odd sensation of losing control over one's feelings, because the source of the feeling appears to be coming from within them rather than without, is destructive to a sense of identity. Betas are used to electric feeling and can do that all day. Magnetic feeling pulls at them from the inside in some really uncomfortable way, and that is seen as damaging to their identities. All the introverted elements have the capacity to create that insidious yin effect in the extroverted element of the same domain. This is why Fi feels invasive to Betas and Ti feels invasive to Deltas. Of course, the active state doesn't feel invasive in that micro insidious sort of way. The active state is obviously presented as an external influence. But then it just seems like autocratic dictatorship.

Contrary introverted elements are thus seen as manipulative, and contrary extroverted elements as barbaric.

The point of this post is to say that we all care about what other people do, otherwise we would never criticize them. We also all feel like we give others a necessary opportunity to have their interior lives. The problem is that we have different ideas of which aspects of our lives are to share and which to keep private. We all agree that different levels and kinds of honesty are required in different situations. We just disagree on which kinds and levels are required.

To give a simpler explanation, it's as if....
Deltas think you should be 50% honest with your thoughts all the time.
Betas think you should express your thoughts obliquely 99% of the time and with total honesty 1% of the time.

Deltas think conversely that you should only hint at what you feel most of the time, and be totally honest about your feelings only rarely. The key is the level of plasticity in each element and what degree of stimulus is required to control this plasticity. The introverted elements don't need as much of an external stimulus to adapt, and a larger one interferes with their function.

I think this post gets at how important Ti values are to Ti-valuing ppl (or maybe just me?).

It's a moral also and not just a tool (?), like Te, so the way Te logic changes fast feel like inconsistencies in values. There's a tussle about what kind of Ti standard is fair, at least in Alpha. I always thought it was a bit of a mistake to be looking in Fe for some equivalent of Fi, b/c Fe (at least in its creative form) is designed to adapt to the audience in order to convey a Ti idea which is more deep and static.

Not sure if other alpha/betas feel this way.

[Aramas]

I think this post gets at how important Ti values are to Ti-valuing ppl (or maybe just me?).

It's a moral also and not just a tool (?), like Te, so the way Te logic changes fast feel like inconsistencies in values. There's a tussle about what kind of Ti standard is fair, at least in Alpha. I always thought it was a bit of a mistake to be looking in Fe for some equivalent of Fi, b/c Fe (at least in its creative form) is designed to adapt to the audience in order to convey a Ti idea which is more deep and static.

Not sure if other alpha/betas feel this way.

Yeah. I've talked about that before. Socionics values become moral values. People think that the way they are, if they've been in a supportive environment, is good.

Some of the quadra differences are downright hilarious though. It's like reality must be pulling a joke or a prank on itself. Why? Merry quadras think they need to have talks with people to solve problems, and serious quadras think they just need to leave people alone and stop talking to them for a while. Lol!

[persimmonism]

Hey Aramas. I really like what you've written in this thread.

...
To give a simpler explanation, it's as if....
Deltas think you should be 50% honest with your thoughts all the time.
Betas think you should express your thoughts obliquely 99% of the time and with total honesty 1% of the time.

How are Alphas and Gammas, in this respect?

[Lord Pixel]

Imo Fe is very plastic and will mold itself exactly to a person or situation in a way that must feel expressively invasive to someone who isn’t receptive to Fe.

By the same token, Delta Fi has often felt invasive to me because of evaluations over how I or others should or shouldn’t be, or a desire to get into my thoughts, which are entirely off-limits.

I care about what people do, in a way, but I don’t care how they arrange or manage their interior lives.

Exactly and Fe tries to objectively define my internal feelings, which are entirely off limits. I could crack a smile, or raise and eyebrow and Fe is determining based off that how I feel and will give a blanket un-nuanced assumption of how I feel. If I crack a smile they will look at the context and say "Are you happy because....." and with Ni and Fe together they are like fully convinced they know my feelings, but completely leaving my own insight out of the equation because feelings are "objective", and they think they can know how I feel more than I do, which makes no sense to me. Smile means "happy", frown means "sad" and all the subjective nuanced reasons for the smile or frown are stripped. And my feelings are off limits because only I can know my nuance. Only the person can know what they are really feeling and the ins and outs of it, so someone trying to get in there and put names to things is like, back the hell off you don't know what's really going on. So yea, internal feelings are entirely off limits.

[golden]

Exactly and Fe tries to objectively define my internal feelings, which are entirely off limits. I could crack a smile, or raise and eyebrow and Fe is determining based off that how I feel and will give a blanket un-nuanced assumption of how I feel. If I crack a smile they will look at the context and say "Are you happy because....." and with Ni and Fe together they are like fully convinced they know my feelings, but completely leaving my own insight out of the equation because feelings are "objective", and they think they can know how I feel more than I do, which makes no sense to me. Smile means "happy", frown means "sad" and all the subjective nuanced reasons for the smile or frown are stripped. And my feelings are off limits because only I can know my nuance. Only the person can know what they are really feeling and the ins and outs of it, so someone trying to get in there and put names to things is like, back the hell off you don't know what's really going on. So yea, internal feelings are entirely off limits.

Okay

[Adam Strange]

Exactly and Fe tries to objectively define my internal feelings, which are entirely off limits. I could crack a smile, or raise and eyebrow and Fe is determining based off that how I feel and will give a blanket un-nuanced assumption of how I feel. If I crack a smile they will look at the context and say "Are you happy because....." and with Ni and Fe together they are like fully convinced they know my feelings, but completely leaving my own insight out of the equation because feelings are "objective", and they think they can know how I feel more than I do, which makes no sense to me. Smile means "happy", frown means "sad" and all the subjective nuanced reasons for the smile or frown are stripped. And my feelings are off limits because only I can know my nuance. Only the person can know what they are really feeling and the ins and outs of it, so someone trying to get in there and put names to things is like, back the hell off you don't know what's really going on.So yea, internal feelings are entirely off limits.

Man, I have heard ESI's say the exact same thing.

[meatburger]

I actually replied to this thread 13 years ago i see lol

Exactly and Fe tries to objectively define my internal feelings, which are entirely off limits. I could crack a smile, or raise and eyebrow and Fe is determining based off that how I feel and will give a blanket un-nuanced assumption of how I feel. If I crack a smile they will look at the context and say "Are you happy because....." and with Ni and Fe together they are like fully convinced they know my feelings, but completely leaving my own insight out of the equation because feelings are "objective", and they think they can know how I feel more than I do, which makes no sense to me. Smile means "happy", frown means "sad" and all the subjective nuanced reasons for the smile or frown are stripped. And my feelings are off limits because only I can know my nuance. Only the person can know what they are really feeling and the ins and outs of it, so someone trying to get in there and put names to things is like, back the hell off you don't know what's really going on. So yea, internal feelings are entirely off limits.

I agree, I find that Fe types seem to expect something from me that can make me feel uncomfortable. Although that could be partially because I'm aware what they are looking for due to Socionics. Just because I look a bit stressed or flat, life's alright lol. My emotional state has 1000 different shades ranging from "I'm the shit" to "ok it's all over for me. Time to buy like 50 packets of lollies and die of hyperglycemia". 95% of the time just because im not that emotionally expressive i'm fine and it just needs some time to work itself out. Brute forcing it by laughing about some girl on the bachelor or whatever the shit your talking about probably wont work.

My ESE boss thinks i'm introverted but mostly its just because I don't feel that comfortable around her. The people who know me well see a far richer personality than many from the outside. I'm most comfortable in a group of no more than 3. I can be boisterous, joking, loud etc. The larger the group and the more loud the personalities the more likely I am to be quiet. I'm actually fairly slow to react to jokes when a large group is joking around, I think its because i'm overwhelmed by amount of input i'm receiving. A couple of days ago I told a SEI woman at work who is a bee keeper to bee-lieve in herself. Then the next day I said, ok its time to Buzz off. She looked at me for a moment then started laughing really hard and I was like woahh I'm outta here lol. When I saw my ILE friend who I genuinely like after not seeing him for 4 years I'm like 'hey man' with a small smile. I could tell he is like wtf dude your not that excited to see me? I should have thrown my fedora, started sprinting towards him for the chest bump, Covid hug etc.

[Minde]

I actually replied to this thread 13 years ago i see lol



I agree, I find that Fe types seem to expect something from me that can make me feel uncomfortable. Although that could be partially because I'm aware what they are looking for due to Socionics. Just because I look a bit stressed or flat, life's alright lol. My emotional state has 1000 different shades ranging from "I'm the shit" to "ok it's all over for me. Time to buy like 50 packets of lollies and die of hyperglycemia". 95% of the time just because im not that emotionally expressive i'm fine and it just needs some time to work itself out. Brute forcing it by laughing about some girl on the bachelor or whatever the shit your talking about probably wont work.

My ESE boss thinks i'm introverted but mostly its just because I don't feel that comfortable around her. The people who know me well see a far richer personality than many from the outside. I'm most comfortable in a group of no more than 3. I can be boisterous, joking, loud etc. The larger the group and the more loud the personalities the more likely I am to be quiet. I'm actually fairly slow to react to jokes when a large group is joking around, I think its because i'm overwhelmed by amount of input i'm receiving. A couple of days ago I told a SEI woman at work who is a bee keeper to bee-lieve in herself. Then the next day I said, ok its time to Buzz off. She looked at me for a moment then started laughing really hard and I was like woahh I'm outta here lol. When I saw my ILE friend who I genuinely like after not seeing him for 4 years I'm like 'hey man' with a small smile. I could tell he is like wtf dude your not that excited to see me? I should have thrown my fedora, started sprinting towards him for the chest bump, Covid hug etc.

That reminds me a LOT of my IEE sister. As she's settled more into herself (she went through a pretty rough period where, to find health, she was basically forced to spend time introspecting), she started calling herself an introvert. However, when in smaller groups of very familiar people she is far more expressive and instigative. She'll do those clever jokes that "come out of nowhere" that seem more for her own entertainment than others' but if you hear it that means she feels comfortable enough with you to let you into that moment. When she's with people she feels safe with, she is pretty open with her emotions. Like if she's frustrated she'll cry or bang things around. But it's not to change you; it's just because it makes her personally feel better to express. In fact, people who can ride her storms without freaking out are the best people for her. If and when other people start reacting to her too strongly or seem to expect her to "perform" she flattens out and buttons up.

As she's been coming out of her rough patch, she's been SUPER quiet when around new people in social situations. It's taken about 2 years, but my MiL (who I think might be ESI) noted to me that my sister seems to be finally feeling more comfortable around her and my FiL (who I think is SEI). But particularly my MiL, who is very good at not pressuring people to be emotive.

For IEE (and EII, mostly), it seems they are socially aware enough to recognize when there's an expectation to emote, and they will oblige up to a point, but after that point they nope out - whether by shutting down or just going off in their own direction. That tolerance point seems to vary by person.

[meatburger]

That reminds me a LOT of my IEE sister. As she's settled more into herself (she went through a pretty rough period where, to find health, she was basically forced to spend time introspecting)

Hey Minde! For sure, its not good to get lost in introspection for long, take it from me. I think if you asked most people they would say I'm an introvert. I'm happy to spend my weekends alone. I do work in mental health and have to help people all day though.

Yeah, being socially aware and having a desire to please people can be quite a curse. When I was at my worst I was hyper aware of peoples emotional expressions. Every micro expression was processed through my Fi about how I was relating to the other person. Of course because I was anxious, I was picking up their response to my anxiety and it was not a good feedback loop. Fi was processed moment to moment and I found it overwhelming at times to see someone pulling closer, drifting away in the space of a few moments.

I've never had blow ups / storms really but I feel for your sister. I basically feel like Bilbo Baggins these days, been through far too much and its time to retire lol. I've seen IEE's in all shapes and sizes. Highly bubbly extraverted ones without any self consciousness and very little self reflectiveness. Whip smart professional types who keep everyone at arms length. Extremely calm slow talking ones, energetic quirky ones, very shy quiet ones. I'm a weird mix of calmness, charisma and high neuroticism lol.

In general I'm much more happy with small emotions. I like the intimacy of an exchange that passes between one or two people. I also think I like the speed and rhythm of it as well, boisterousness for me is just too stimulating if it lasts a long time.

[Lord Pixel]

For IEE (and EII, mostly), it seems they are socially aware enough to recognize when there's an expectation to emote, and they will oblige up to a point, but after that point they nope out - whether by shutting down or just going off in their own direction. That tolerance point seems to vary by person.

Yup. I'm going through this right now. 2 many new people around me and I can't get away from having to perform the icebreaker and handshake and first impression and rapport building and blah blah blah blah, things never said out loud but you know are there lingering.

It's real bad when you live in a house with new people, you leave work but you don't leave the social expectations when you come home because there are new faces with expectations in the one place you go to to get away from it all. It's like when you go to the gym you are ready to work out, but imagine coming home and also having to continue working out with no break or shower.

I'm starting to feel like me locking myself in my room is coming off rude or overly shy to the new people I live with, when really I'm just trying to catch a breather from "social weightlifting" I don't know how to put it but I hope you know what I mean. Everytime I leave my room I feel some kinda of "is he gonna stop being so quiet?" weight on my shoulders again. Now leaving my room has become a choice of "do I want to lift weights or no?" and most of the time the answer is no lol so I don't leave unless I know people aren't around lol. BUT going out I'm fine because I expect to do some social weightlifting once I leave the house, and I might even look for and enjoy it, but when I get home I just want a break and to let all the ugly hangout without being judged.

[Adam Strange]

Yup. I'm going through this right now. 2 many new people around me and I can't get away from having to perform the icebreaker and handshake and first impression and rapport building and blah blah blah blah, things never said out loud but you know are there lingering.

It's real bad when you live in a house with new people, you leave work but you don't leave the social expectations when you come home because there are new faces with expectations in the one place you go to to get away from it all. It's like when you go to the gym you are ready to work out, but imagine coming home and also having to continue working out with no break or shower.

I'm starting to feel like me locking myself in my room is coming off rude or overly shy to the new people I live with, when really I'm just trying to catch a breather from "social weightlifting" I don't know how to put it but I hope you know what I mean. Everytime I leave my room I feel some kinda of "is he gonna stop being so quiet?" weight on my shoulders again. Now leaving my room has become a choice of "do I want to lift weights or no?" and most of the time the answer is no lol so I don't leave unless I know people aren't around lol. BUT going out I'm fine because I expect to do some social weightlifting once I leave the house, and I might even look for and enjoy it, but when I get home I just want a break and to let all the ugly out without being judged.

It sounds like you don't have a place you can defend or call your own, except your room.

I've been in situations like that before, but not recently. Usually it was when I was visiting my ex-wife's parent's house and her extended family of fifteen or twenty nice but still-screwed-up Delta and Beta relatives. I was the only Gamma in sight (although I didn't think in those terms then, but instead merely felt as if there was a conversation that everyone but me was in on. Plus, there was a lot NOT being said and not allowed to be discussed, thank you very much).

I've also felt alienated when staying with my mother's relatives in Pittsburgh. The ones where the grandmother swears like a sailor and the daughter got pregnant at 13 and the mother is working on her fifth drunken and absent BF that year and there are no males anywhere (except me) and the dog shits on the rug three times a day and the place is a continuous screaming madhouse that smells like dog shit and you're telling me that I'm related to these people?

I've seen descriptions of ESI's which said that they make their home "their own". I wonder if this is something that Fi-doms need in order to feel comfortable?