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Last edited by guest32456; 12-30-2020 at 01:12 PM.
Five/Tanzhe
You are probably experiencing a PoLR.
I'm ok with massive emotions, just that I would be more of an observer than participant. I only get frustrated when others in the group talk about fun and enjoyment and meaningless stuff. And it's easy for others to know that I'm displeased 'cos I will always have this "wtf?" look on my face. Example:
During a class outing
ESTp classmate: Dang! You guys can't believe what a bad day I have today.
Everyone
ESTp: I saw this white python on an online auction the other day and I decided to put in $8000 for it. I was confident that I will definitely get it 'cos all the other bidders couldn't bid past this amount, until another guy came in the last minute and dump in $10000. Oh man! Can you believe that? He won me by just two thousand freaking dollars?!
Me: (thought: I wish you could have gotten the python so that it can slither towards you at night and suffocate you and let you experience a slow and painful death.)
i come from a family of delta's so maybe i can comment. delta is basically anti-beta. deltas like small groups of people, relationally-based communication at a closer psychological distance, they follow the rules of etiquette strictly, and go for refinement.Originally Posted by Five
loud emotional displays don't fit into this nor do large group activities. i think they kind of intimidate or offend a lot of delta types. so you might see the kind of reaction you are describing five.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
huh. that interaction would not affect me that way at all.Originally Posted by eunice
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
I got a python you can....
errr nevermind... forgot this was Delta
Yeah probablly. I could probablly handle a full blown Fe atmosphere for a little while but its a pretty tiring. I do quite enjoy seeing how the other side works sometimes. Too much emotion i cant see as being a problem. Deltas aren't all stuck up like some people seem to think. I doubt anyone could say anything to shock me. I can even take people giving fat people / handicapped etc people shit as long as its not to their face. I think if someone doesn't have Fi you cant force it on them.Originally Posted by Five
The only thing i wont take is rudeness/meanness to myself/a friend/someone who could be hurt by it.
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
I don't think it is necessarily Fe polr. I'm like that. If that's Fe polr, I have an Fe polr. hmm.
It's Fi>Fe preference
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
YES! At least I do. (And I think it would apply to most deltas. As Slacker Mom said, it's an Fi > Fe preference.)Originally Posted by Five
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Originally Posted by Gilly
Cool Many thanks to you all.
Kindly,
Five/Tanzhe
I would agree with this. In a group, deltas also often withdraw from the whole group and engage in splintered off conversation with a few people for a while, before re-engaging back with the group as a whole.Originally Posted by Five
Friendly ISTp
Interested in everything, yes, EVERYTHING
Flower's motto: Life's too short even to do the things you want to, let alone the things you dont!!
I have very deepseated emotions but it's hard for me to express them in the moment. And can be outwardly unexpressive. Being around people who constantly have their heart on their sleeve can be draining. Or it is a lot to take in for me. I want to understand people, and can empathize but when it gets to a point where people are dumping everything out, it gets to a point where I just sit there quietly and don't know what to say. In group settings, I do naturally read into the emotional atmosphere, and like to have my place in the group.
If it gets to a point where people are expecting me to share more than I am comfortable with, that is when I begin to withdraw. Or I begin to give shorter, generic answers and get significantly quieter. Especially when they try to pry emotions out of me before I am ready to talk about them. When I process them, I talk about them but in the moment, it's a struggle for me.
xII se PoLR, 9w1-5w4-2w3 sp/so
Phlegmatic-Melancholic |RCoAI| Fascinator| Newtype-secondary| LEFVl|
#JusticeforJeb_, Water Sheep did nothing wrong, High Inquisitor Of Council of Water Sheep and Water Sheep's protector
Make things right? Who are we to decide when things are right and when they need to be fixed?
The whole thing about Deltas having problems with emotionally expressice people is not so much the emotional expression, but the underlying intentions with those emotional expressions. Especially in the case of Beta, such expressions are considered by Deltas as boundary crossing behavior, and a forebode of more bad things to come. Deltas view Betas as people who act entitled in a way that puts Deltas at a disadvantage, and thus have the tendecy to withdraw from emotionally expressive people. Long story short: to Deltas, emotional expressiveness is a sign a bad things ahead, especially in a group setting.
This also explains why Deltas have less problems with the Fe from Alphas: Alphas emotional expression is not experienced as dangerous by Deltas.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Fe emotional style annoyes Te types. Fi types accept that easier
Fi ego are also emotional people, but have and express more other kind of emotions
the main difference is
Fe - objective evaluation. it's good/bad
Fi - personal evaluation. I like/dislike
Fi - compassion in the sense of understanding of personal sympathies and wishes
Fe - has an analogue in the sense of understanding of general emotional state (joy, sadness)
Fe type may try to cheer up you by a joke, for example. Where Fi type will come to smile you softly to show you have a friend
From point of Te types what do Fe is not a real compassion to you as a human - Fe alike want to improve a sad dude to more inspired dude, so he'd had more energy to work together. It's other kind of compassion as Fe type checks your emotions too and tries to make you happier as... an object.
Lol, i thought you were being sarcastic? Were you? I honestly hope so. It is these sort of vague ideas about the depth and quality of expression that confuses matters and frankly kept me from self-typing EII for a long time. It has to do with the various standards and definitions we use when we speak of 'depth' and 'nuance' and the like. I think my standards are rather stricter than other people's so when I speak / hear of these things, things like 'depth', I will immediately think that by depth it is meant something tremendously deep, which cannot be brought to the surface with words, or some such, whereas the next person over might think and speak of depth as something simply deeper than just saying 'bless you!' to someone when they sneeze!
Imo Fe is very plastic and will mold itself exactly to a person or situation in a way that must feel expressively invasive to someone who isn’t receptive to Fe.
By the same token, Delta Fi has often felt invasive to me because of evaluations over how I or others should or shouldn’t be, or a desire to get into my thoughts, which are entirely off-limits.
I care about what people do, in a way, but I don’t care how they arrange or manage their interior lives.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
Deltas typically have a mixed view of sharing thoughts. That's the nature of the extroverted elements. Deltas can't really hold back their thoughts in the same way that Betas can. Betas also have this odd thing where they will not express their thoughts 99% of the time, and that 1% moment when they do is catastrophic-level honesty. It's those rare moments when Fe breaks and T is allowed full expression.
Deltas do the same with their feelings. Betas are always expressing their feelings in some way. Because their feelings aren't quite as intrinsic to their sense of identity, that part of them is much more malleable in social situations. The rare moments in which Deltas express how they really feel are a sight to behold. Conversely, they are always sharing their thoughts, which are adaptive to social situations at least to some degree. Betas don't like that, though, lol. Betas would prefer to share feels and keep thoughts to themselves. Until they get really close to you and decide that they want to get to know you very well. Then they switch on the Ti. In rare cases, Ti is expressed socially to put someone "back in line" when they've done something the Betas see as a critical error. This active state of Ti is meant to restore or recreate Fe.
Beta Ti when it's expressed often feels invasive to me too tbh. It's like, rather than telling you what to be, Betas want to tell you what you should think. I think this is because Betas find their thoughts more internally adjustable, which allows them to create whatever emotionality is necessary in a social situation. Betas can, in other words, simulate necessary thoughts to create certain feelings, even if they don't actually think them on their own. They view this behavior as giving respectful consideration to someone else's perspective, but the mechanics of what they are doing is actually beyond the ability of most Deltas and contrary to the healthy function of their psyches.
Deltas have a similar ability. They can actually alter their character in micro ways that gives them the power to adapt their behavior in social situations. Meanwhile, their internal character is somehow preserved in spite of the adaptation. Betas can't really adapt their own feelings or character in the same way. They require the external force of Fe to regulate their feelings. (Feelings and character are related.)
Betas, of course, just as Deltas typically view Beta Fe and Ti as a form of prevarication, see Delta Fi and Te the same way. They don't see Deltas as being honest about how they feel, because rather than allowing others to regulate their feelings for them, Deltas do that on their own. Meanwhile, Fi feels invasive to Betas because the subtle adaptation of Fi out of consideration for the feelings of others ends up creating a powerful yin effect that alters the feelings of Betas "from the inside." In other words, Fi creates a resonance of feeling, rather than a resonance of thought. The odd sensation of losing control over one's feelings, because the source of the feeling appears to be coming from within them rather than without, is destructive to a sense of identity. Betas are used to electric feeling and can do that all day. Magnetic feeling pulls at them from the inside in some really uncomfortable way, and that is seen as damaging to their identities. All the introverted elements have the capacity to create that insidious yin effect in the extroverted element of the same domain. This is why Fi feels invasive to Betas and Ti feels invasive to Deltas. Of course, the active state doesn't feel invasive in that micro insidious sort of way. The active state is obviously presented as an external influence. But then it just seems like autocratic dictatorship.
Contrary introverted elements are thus seen as manipulative, and contrary extroverted elements as barbaric.
The point of this post is to say that we all care about what other people do, otherwise we would never criticize them. We also all feel like we give others a necessary opportunity to have their interior lives. The problem is that we have different ideas of which aspects of our lives are to share and which to keep private. We all agree that different levels and kinds of honesty are required in different situations. We just disagree on which kinds and levels are required.
To give a simpler explanation, it's as if....
Deltas think you should be 50% honest with your thoughts all the time.
Betas think you should express your thoughts obliquely 99% of the time and with total honesty 1% of the time.
Deltas think conversely that you should only hint at what you feel most of the time, and be totally honest about your feelings only rarely. The key is the level of plasticity in each element and what degree of stimulus is required to control this plasticity. The introverted elements don't need as much of an external stimulus to adapt, and a larger one interferes with their function.
Last edited by Aramas; 06-19-2019 at 04:17 PM.
I think much of this is true and is a very good amplification and expansion of what I was getting at but over the years have tired of trying to express.
Interestingly to me, Gamma Fi doesn’t rub me so wrong, and I don’t necessarily mind what you refer to as magnetic resonance of feeling. It’s just that Gammas are less likely to misinterpret what I do and say, and Deltas will sometimes be quite sure about what I’m feeling and it is utterly, grossly incorrect. Yet when I say it’s incorrect, I am told I am wrong ... about my ... own ... feelings. And obviously things break down from there.
What I find Beta Ti does from my perspective is it seeks weaknesses in my ability to handle something, then gives me the pieces I need in order to handle it. There’s a process of dismantling that comes with that, and I can imagine it being quite unpleasant to some people.
Last edited by golden; 06-19-2019 at 07:03 PM.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I think this post gets at how important Ti values are to Ti-valuing ppl (or maybe just me?).
It's a moral also and not just a tool (?), like Te, so the way Te logic changes fast feel like inconsistencies in values. There's a tussle about what kind of Ti standard is fair, at least in Alpha. I always thought it was a bit of a mistake to be looking in Fe for some equivalent of Fi, b/c Fe (at least in its creative form) is designed to adapt to the audience in order to convey a Ti idea which is more deep and static.
Not sure if other alpha/betas feel this way.
Exactly and Fe tries to objectively define my internal feelings, which are entirely off limits. I could crack a smile, or raise and eyebrow and Fe is determining based off that how I feel and will give a blanket un-nuanced assumption of how I feel. If I crack a smile they will look at the context and say "Are you happy because....." and with Ni and Fe together they are like fully convinced they know my feelings, but completely leaving my own insight out of the equation because feelings are "objective", and they think they can know how I feel more than I do, which makes no sense to me. Smile means "happy", frown means "sad" and all the subjective nuanced reasons for the smile or frown are stripped. And my feelings are off limits because only I can know my nuance. Only the person can know what they are really feeling and the ins and outs of it, so someone trying to get in there and put names to things is like, back the hell off you don't know what's really going on. So yea, internal feelings are entirely off limits.
I actually replied to this thread 13 years ago i see lol
I agree, I find that Fe types seem to expect something from me that can make me feel uncomfortable. Although that could be partially because I'm aware what they are looking for due to Socionics. Just because I look a bit stressed or flat, life's alright lol. My emotional state has 1000 different shades ranging from "I'm the shit" to "ok it's all over for me. Time to buy like 50 packets of lollies and die of hyperglycemia". 95% of the time just because im not that emotionally expressive i'm fine and it just needs some time to work itself out. Brute forcing it by laughing about some girl on the bachelor or whatever the shit your talking about probably wont work.
My ESE boss thinks i'm introverted but mostly its just because I don't feel that comfortable around her. The people who know me well see a far richer personality than many from the outside. I'm most comfortable in a group of no more than 3. I can be boisterous, joking, loud etc. The larger the group and the more loud the personalities the more likely I am to be quiet. I'm actually fairly slow to react to jokes when a large group is joking around, I think its because i'm overwhelmed by amount of input i'm receiving. A couple of days ago I told a SEI woman at work who is a bee keeper to bee-lieve in herself. Then the next day I said, ok its time to Buzz off. She looked at me for a moment then started laughing really hard and I was like woahh I'm outta here lol. When I saw my ILE friend who I genuinely like after not seeing him for 4 years I'm like 'hey man' with a small smile. I could tell he is like wtf dude your not that excited to see me? I should have thrown my fedora, started sprinting towards him for the chest bump, Covid hug etc.
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
I think Deltas withdraw from emotionally expressive people if they feel like the expression of other people's emotions impedes their ability to be aware of their own. Beta emotionality often feels way too over the top for me, even overbearing and painfully intrusive. It feels like it carries with it a sense of self-righteous justification that isn't allowed to be questioned. That last part is especially true for Betas who have lived in a uniform environment and haven't had to adjust to others.
In other words, Beta emotionality can feel like an imposition.
Betas themselves are prone to believing that those who don't support the emotional environment and those who don't openly and overtly show their will are somehow immoral or possessed of malicious intent. They are seen as not contributing as they should. In Beta, you have to approach, shake hands, kowtow, and make nice to be acceptable. They realize it's all a game, but they get their feelings rather deeply hurt if you don't play. The "manly show of force" is how Betas tell if someone else is trustworthy, because healthy Se can mean positive Ni, etc.
It's always odd to me how Betas can express positive emotionality and not actually be in agreement with someone else. Strong valued Fe lets you kiss a lot of ass and make people think you like them. Lol!
Last edited by Aramas; 06-19-2019 at 05:26 AM.
I sincerely didn't understand anything : )
I've experienced feeling "castrated" by emotionally outspoken people, in particular by SEE, whom I tend to like and stick to, but they transform me into something I'm usually not: silent, grumpy, hyper-rational, self-aware. I see them as attractive and repulsive at the same time, their emotional tones both draw me in and push me away... to take in little doses.
I believe that everyone exhibits natural behavior that is "aimed" at a dual; behavior that is accepted by a dual. The more sympathetic a person is, the more they will respond as that dual, if at all possible.
When I'm around an EII, I become more LSE-like. When I was chasing an IEI, I definitely became more SLE-like, because that was the behavior that was rewarded. Ultimately, though, I just "could not be who she wanted me to be." -and a tip o' the hat to Mr. Bob Dylan for that line.
This was a major mystery to me until I actually learned socionics. A large part of my family earlier in life was Beta and their use of Fe was 'weird' to me. I thought I must have been an introvert, because the people around me, I felt unable to interact with much.
To this day, I don't actually have good communication with them - it is baffling how things can be interpreted in particular ways sometimes. I brought a delta NF girl to a wedding with some of my beta family and it was such a contrast to have great communication with her and to be reminded of my past, more withdrawn or avoidant self, even as an adult. I'm significantly more confident about all forms of communication now, but, people relate to your past a lot.
For beta's specifically, they seem to have a proclivity towards responding to the immediate emotional state and context. My humor is often ne / shifting contexts, and I have a flippant attitude towards particular narratives especially if I don't agree with them or find value in them. But when there's a cluster of people who have a particular attitude about that, it can be stifling for someone who isn't that way - whether the main group is beta delta or whatever.
You should try to see how you feel when you are receiving a consistent amount of 'positive feedback' for your interactions, and you get to explore enough to see what you really enjoy or not.
Even though, though, I tend to get bored with certain emotional contexts and means by which to maintain excitement. When things feel shallow, and there isn't a, let's say.... delta Fi development of depth of understanding other people and their sentiments and related growth paths, then yeah, it gets boring.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Perhaps generally, but it's not always the case. SEEs can be pretty emotionally expressive in my experience, and they often seem to be appreciated and activated by IEEs. Although, in my experience, EIIs, who 1-on-1 will find themselves appreciating and relating to IEIs; their perspectives, thoughts and expressed feelings, will have a much harder time relating to them once they're in a group (especially with other Betas). That's when the real differences between IEI and EII become apparent. In fact, the EII often becomes invisible in situations like these, sticking to the background, not really having it, while many times IEI seems surprisingly extroverted, not seldom in the centre of attention. SLI behaves similarly to EII here, but they will still be a little bit more engaged, making clever, dry jokes or some such thing (love their humour).
Anything more than 3 people in a group gets tiresome very fast, as if I can't keep up. I find that three is the magic number here; away from the awkwardness of 2 and less than the exhausting presence of 5 or 6 people screaming "yo moma" jokes.
(That's my experience with HS at least)
I'm not fond of total emotional detachment in discussions and group settings but I don't really like SUPER LOUD GATHERINGS WHERE PEOPLE LAUGH AT EVERY SINGLE THING HAHA HA.
“I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
― Clarice Lispector
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
“I want the following word: splendor, splendor is fruit in all its succulence, fruit without sadness. I want vast distances. My savage intuition of myself.”
― Clarice Lispector
Sometimes showing love/respect to people you don’t like is the right thing to do.
crystal clear