Socionics IQ Test

[UDP]

What is this-

I dislike it greatly when something asks me to do something, and then, someone else does it in my place. In my youth I became really angry about someone asking me to find something, and they made a big deal about it, and then when someone else found it, it was just uncomfortable for me.

I always take it as me either being incompetent, or not taking the jobs seriously, or just me failing to do something I was asked to do. Even a question of my maturity. Like right now, someone is finishing something I started - cleaning windows - and it really irritates me because I was asked to do it. And instead of asking me to continue, or even involving me in the discussion, someone else just started doing it.

Partly, there is some one-up-manship involved, too, and I am very competitive in that way. Not against other people per se, but in regard to my own standards.

[Gilly]

UDP's goal-orientation and desire for self-improvement are something that the two of us have in common, so I can't see it making a case for Beta.

[ScarlettLux]

I have INTj friends who I know are INTjs and they can be very focused on their future goals and such .. I agree it isn't type related and to say that only Beta types have that is just... not... right. However, I do agree that Alpha and Beta would obviously go about accomplishing/talking about those goals in different ways. I agree that UDP does seem extremely, almost too serious about this stuff that doesn't equate with Alpha quadra general atmosphere.

I also detect a lot of in talking to him. IRL interactions, I can see him as a person who calms down a Beta NF and such. I just think he would do much better with an intuitive than a sensor. I have no real basis/explanation for this so

However, something still seems off - I'm still placing him as an INTj. I just can't see him fully enjoying Beta mood and stuff. It's a little bit too dramatic, as he said he does not enjoy drama.

[UDP]

Who would be more serious, an ESFj or an ENFj? Who would more appreciate a serious person?

I believe I am too rough for ESFjs, and I see an ENFj as responding better to my cutting-ness. I destroy drama generally, but I still am Fe dual seeking, I appreciate a bright atmosphere, and I enjoy having someone bright and cheery, emotional - this allows me even more to be my emotionally placid self.

When I see something wrong, then I can be much more aggressive, or if I do not like how someone is doing something, I will say it outrightly. That, I believe, is more beta>alpha.

Also.... I believe I am finding myself thinking more aristocratically lately.


It depends on whether or not an ISTj can be emotionally level and mature, and also, how an INTj can be. I think right now I would do better with someone who is an ENFj - someone who would be okay with my obstinacy.

Most likely, however, the most mature and best overall leading that fits in with my life scheme - that will be fine with me.

[UDP]

There is almost no chance that I am alpha, according to this:

[web:0a1f2854d0]http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Alpha_Quadra[/web:0a1f2854d0]


I am beginning to see a dislike of alpha attitude in general. But as I said a while ago, I doubt I should be considered along with stereotypical types. If you want, it may be easier to think I am an INTj on a quest of sorts. But alpha atmosphere is not appealing to me at all. Even now - as I write - and am experiencing it....

So it seems that as for finding my most compatible type, who should it be?

In terms of working relationships, Gammas and Deltas are great IMO / IME. I like professionalism a great deal. But what type would I be able to live with most? That is still troubling.

[Transigent]

Honest to god, before you UDP, I always considered INFp's to be the smartest type. (Ni and Ti at once = unstoppable)

You aren't Alpha. Duh. (Of course, by the above description of Alpha, neither am I, yuck.) You are Beta. At least you know this much now. Step One complete. Congrats!

You still think that you are Ti though. I see Ni very clearly. Let me explain a bit about what I think Ni is. (Roughly.)



This function is all about meaning in the completely personal sense. You must have meaning in your life, something important, something that you know that you were made for, and where you fit in completely. This is the only way you can settle down your Ni-Demons that keep creeping up on you every time you are in a state of "inaction". (Also, this is why Si as a life philosophy is unsatisfying, because it is not important to the intuitive experience of "finding your place in existence".)

Just like Ne will generally try to find the "meaning" of events and objects that are "out there", Ni will try to find the meaning of the things that are "inside" of yourself. And since it is based on intuition, it is very vague, and general, and tough to pin down, and mixed up with the unknowns of your own subconcious and human experience (something that we all share.) Therefore, your "meaning" that you try to find within yourself will be somewhat general, and vague, and difficult to pin down, and the information involved is heavily abstract (way more abstract then Ne) and will only come to you as hunches, and beliefs and such. But all these things are based off of your own subjective, introverted, experience. Thus, they will only be specific to you.

I can see how this can get confused with the Ti "understanding and logic", but the big difference is that Ni is a "perception" of things that come from inside you. You "learn" Ni from your intuition and subconcious. Ti is something that you "derive" by trying to be objective.

To sum it up:

Ni - meaning of your existence, finding a place to fit in, what you were made for

[UDP]

What on earth do I need an ESTp dual for?
So you still believe me to be irrational?

[UDP]

Honest to god, before you UDP, I always considered INFp's to be the smartest type. (Ni and Ti at once = unstoppable)

You should be embarrassed by this statement.

[UDP]

Have you considered that I might be expecting from other people, like, an ENFj?




edited: it said "and ENFj" instead of "an ENFj"

[Gilly]

This function is all about meaning in the completely personal sense. You must have meaning in your life, something important, something that you know that you were made for, and where you fit in completely. This is the only way you can settle down your Ni-Demons that keep creeping up on you every time you are in a state of "inaction". (Also, this is why Si as a life philosophy is unsatisfying, because it is not important to the intuitive experience of "finding your place in existence".)

Just like Ne will generally try to find the "meaning" of events and objects that are "out there", Ni will try to find the meaning of the things that are "inside" of yourself. And since it is based on intuition, it is very vague, and general, and tough to pin down, and mixed up with the unknowns of your own subconcious and human experience (something that we all share.) Therefore, your "meaning" that you try to find within yourself will be somewhat general, and vague, and difficult to pin down, and the information involved is heavily abstract (way more abstract then Ne) and will only come to you as hunches, and beliefs and such. But all these things are based off of your own subjective, introverted, experience. Thus, they will only be specific to you.

I can see how this can get confused with the Ti "understanding and logic", but the big difference is that Ni is a "perception" of things that come from inside you. You "learn" Ni from your intuition and subconcious. Ti is something that you "derive" by trying to be objective.

To sum it up:

Ni - meaning of your existence, finding a place to fit in, what you were made for

Dude, you've gone way downhill when it comes to theory...

[Transigent]

Dude, you've gone way downhill when it comes to theory...

Okay. Set me straight then!

[Gilly]

How can you prove that Ni has anything to do with meaning?

[ScarlettLux]

Who would be more serious, an ESFj or an ENFj? Who would more appreciate a serious person?

I believe I am too rough for ESFjs, and I see an ENFj as responding better to my cutting-ness. I destroy drama generally, but I still am Fe dual seeking, I appreciate a bright atmosphere, and I enjoy having someone bright and cheery, emotional - this allows me even more to be my emotionally placid self.

When I see something wrong, then I can be much more aggressive, or if I do not like how someone is doing something, I will say it outrightly. That, I believe, is more beta>alpha.

Also.... I believe I am finding myself thinking more aristocratically lately.


It depends on whether or not an ISTj can be emotionally level and mature, and also, how an INTj can be. I think right now I would do better with someone who is an ENFj - someone who would be okay with my obstinacy.

Most likely, however, the most mature and best overall leading that fits in with my life scheme - that will be fine with me.

Ah. Many things here interest me: you say you are emotionally placid.. you rely on Fe EJs to provide that emotional atmosphere for you.. but how I see it, you mean to say that you still remain sort of stiff and cold. Or do you allow yourself to be "melted"? That is so much more fulfilling for Fe.. it's what we like to accomplish.

What do you mean by thinking aristocratically?

And I believe that ESFjs actually don't really care about the roughness. I've noticed ESFjs are even more tolerant of roughness than ENFjs! They will continually pile on the Fe regardless whereareas ENFjs (being victims) get a bit scared and back off.. at least IME.

[Transigent]

Intuition is about interpretation, interpretation is about meaning.

At least, thats what I think. Intuition covers the things that T, F, and S can't cover, and interpretation/meaning seems to be one of these things.

[UDP]

Who would be more serious, an ESFj or an ENFj? Who would more appreciate a serious person?

I believe I am too rough for ESFjs, and I see an ENFj as responding better to my cutting-ness. I destroy drama generally, but I still am Fe dual seeking, I appreciate a bright atmosphere, and I enjoy having someone bright and cheery, emotional - this allows me even more to be my emotionally placid self.

When I see something wrong, then I can be much more aggressive, or if I do not like how someone is doing something, I will say it outrightly. That, I believe, is more beta>alpha.

Also.... I believe I am finding myself thinking more aristocratically lately.


It depends on whether or not an ISTj can be emotionally level and mature, and also, how an INTj can be. I think right now I would do better with someone who is an ENFj - someone who would be okay with my obstinacy.

Most likely, however, the most mature and best overall leading that fits in with my life scheme - that will be fine with me.

Ah. Many things here interest me: you say you are emotionally placid.. you rely on Fe EJs to provide that emotional atmosphere for you.. but how I see it, you mean to say that you still remain sort of stiff and cold. Or do you allow yourself to be "melted"? That is so much more fulfilling for Fe.. it's what we like to accomplish.

Absolutely. But I am just selective about who I allow to see me "melted". I do not just drop my ices for anyone. But if you know I can be more relaxed around you - then you should accept that as a great compliment, and dominants seem to get that the most.

What do you mean by thinking aristocratically?

I will use wikisocion:

Aristocrats

1. Inclined to perceive and define themselves, and others, through groups they belong to; however, such groups are perceived and defined by the Aristocrats themselves, not necessarily accepting those groupings as defined by others or by social conventions.
2. Their initial attitude to another person is influenced by their attitude to the group they see the person as belonging to.
3. Tend to attribute common qualities to members of their circles of contacts, and define such circles by those same qualities.
4. Inclined to use expressions that generalize group features.
5. In collective hierarchical structures (as in work, organizations, etc) inclined to pay little attention to a person's official position in that structure. *


Example: feeling energized by identification with a group, as in a team within a company, sports team, and the like; and seeing others foremost through the prism of the other teams they belong to.

[hr:8c65d20e6f]
[hr:8c65d20e6f]

Democrats

1. Perceive and define themselves, and others, primarily through individual/personal qualities: interesting, pleasant, unpleasant, good-looking, etc, not in connection to any group they may belong to.*
2. Form their relationships/attitudes toward other persons based on the latter's own individual characteristics, not with base on their relationships to groups of any kind, nor on their relationships to representatives of such groups.
3. Not inclined to perceive their acquaintances as representatives of a certain "circle of contacts" that supposedly possesses qualities inherent to people of that circle. ((Not me))
4. Not inclined to use expressions that generalize group features.
5. In collective hierarchical structures (as in work, organizations, etc), inclined to take much consideration of a person's official position in that structure. ((Not me))

Example: an individual building up his circle of personal connections, within an organization, that totally bypassses or ignores the organization's formal structure, but not with that circle being perceived as any kind of group or unit by any of the persons involved.

- The "example" for Democrats seems misleading to me.
- #1 for Aristocrats is very important it seems, especially what I colored in red.
- Also, I made two "*"s, and to me, they are connected. The * in Democratic seems to relate to the * in Aristocratic to me. Other than that I do not seem to related to Democratic very much.

And I believe that ESFjs actually don't really care about the roughness. I've noticed ESFjs are even more tolerant of roughness than ENFjs! They will continually pile on the Fe regardless whereareas ENFjs (being victims) get a bit scared and back off.. at least IME.

What do you mean by "roughness" in your quote there?

[Gilly]

Intuition is about interpretation, interpretation is about meaning.

At least, thats what I think. Intuition covers the things that T, F, and S can't cover, and interpretation/meaning seems to be one of these things.

So you can't justify your stance by the definition of the function? This seems entirely subjective to me.

[Joy]

I'd go with "patterns in events" if I was going to assign a minimalistic definition to Ni. It's all about cause and effect relationships.

Gilligan, why do you insist on finding people to argue with?

[ScarlettLux]

I think Gilly's entertaining.

But yeah, roughness. . Now that I think about it, INTjs are not rougher than ISTjs in the way you were describing it, I believe. They are more decisive, fierce, and all. I think what I was referring to would be coldness.. err, scratch this whole thing. The more I think about it, the more I don't make any sense... Gah!!

[Transigent]

Intuition is about interpretation, interpretation is about meaning.

At least, thats what I think. Intuition covers the things that T, F, and S can't cover, and interpretation/meaning seems to be one of these things.

So you can't justify your stance by the definition of the function? This seems entirely subjective to me.

Oh! I was unaware that Intuition had been clearly and consistently defined in my absence.

Cool! I have been waiting for some clarifications on the functions. Care to enlighten me?

[Joy]

Perhaps you meant that INTjs are Negativists?

[Gilly]

Intuition is about interpretation, interpretation is about meaning.

At least, thats what I think. Intuition covers the things that T, F, and S can't cover, and interpretation/meaning seems to be one of these things.

So you can't justify your stance by the definition of the function? This seems entirely subjective to me.

Oh! I was unaware that Intuition had been clearly and consistently defined in my absence.

Cool! I have been waiting for some clarifications on the functions. Care to enlighten me?

Have you heard of information elements?

Joy, don't you have something better than the fact that you think I seek out arguments to bitch about?

[Transigent]

Go on.

[Gilly]

I don't have a set of definitions handy; this is the best I can find right now:

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...mation_aspects

[Gilly]

Here we go (figures it took me getting high to remember the terms ):

Ne - Internal Statics of Objects
Ni - Internal Dynamics of Fields
Se - External Statics of Objects
Si - External Dynamics of Fields
Te - External Dynamics of Objects
Ti - External Statics of Fields
Fe - Internal Dynamics of Objects
Fi Internal Dynamics of Fields

I'm not sure that "meaning" falls under Internal Dynamics of Fields

[ScarlettLux]

Oh FUCK, I hate those internal/external whatever descriptions. WHAT DOES IT MEAN!??!?!?!

[Gilly]

Rick has a complete set of definitions for the functions, and the terms, here:

http://socionics.us/theory/information.shtml

[Exodus]

Ni could relate to meaning in the sense of noticing unobvious, subjective connections between things. That fits with "internal dynamics of fields".

[Gilly]

Then perhaps we have different ideas of meaning. Meaning is an emotion to me, and I think it's quite impossible to capture in information elements

[Gilly]

Actually...

Transigent, what about "direction," as opposed to "meaning?" How does that suit you?

[Joy]

Ne: possibilies; unseen potential and content, hidden value
Si: how events affect the physical state of self and others; comfort, needs, stability

Se: the outward physical traits of objects; value (monetary or power), strength, shape, and readiness to mobilize
Ni: patterns in events; cause and effect relationships, a sense of what is likely to happen and when, abstract representations of processes

Fe: emotional expression; attention to the emotional expression of self, others, and the emotional climate of an area or group
Ti: the organization of systems; structured understanding of data and knowledge, hierarchy; categorization of information based on how it relates to an existing internal system of logical understanding

Te: the outward characteristics of event; what works, how it works, what isn't working, and what would work better; utilization of data from external sources
Fi: relationships; internal attitude and feelings of self and others, likes and dislikes, personal morals, subjective judgments

[Gilly]

My point was that his definition of Ni was far too subjective.

[UDP]

I would definitely rather teach my children , as opposed to

So do you now think of yourself as an ISTj or are you still undecided?

I am leaning that way, towards ISTj. But I am not sure. I am still not sure if I prefer a caregiver or a victim. I am looking into it right now.


[hr:f7ecfc00ee]


PS:

For the sake of learning socionics, it would be best to consider me a dominant IJ, and if I had to pick one, it would be an LII, because I am focused on abstract things. Of course, my desire has always been to discover these abstract things and then bring them into reality, and this process is somewhat seen by me as progress, moving forward.

That being said, in terms of socionics I believe it would be unwise to discuss my type, as I have incorporated much of my learning and understanding of the socionics into who I am today; I am not just someone to be analyzed by socionics, but, I am someone who has become enriched by socionics. That, combined with my own personal journey, leaves me in a space between conventional socionics' ISTj and INTj. I caution people trying to determine what type I am because I am no longer playing by the rules of the game so to speak, I have gone my own way, and become the person I want to be.

Now, this does not mean socionics is limited necessarily, but the current level of understanding - that if you are this type, you cannot be good at this or that - is not applicable to me. As I have said on the forum, seeing any sort of a weakness or room for improvement always intrigues me, so I will move towards growing in that area. And, if you really know how to use your functions properly, (it appears) as though you can develop 'weak functions' - but whether or not this means all functions increase in the same functional order formation, or that they actually change, I do not know. I would say the former at this time, because I feel I have become strong in Se, but even stronger in Ti, and perhaps Ne as well. I feel stronger in almost every function, than I used to.

Finally, I will conclude by saying that to me, AWARENESS is the most important aspect to all of this. The more you are aware of what you are doing, the more you can control, adjust, modify, and so on. Ultimately, it is up to you - who you want to be and what you want to do.


[web:f7ecfc00ee]http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?p=191611#191611[/web:f7ecfc00ee]


I enjoy greatly learning about life itself, and this I always have done. There are secrets and great understandings to be made if you want to see them. Comprehension.



Finally, to address the enneagram issue:
Type 5 still seems the best fit, particularly that one website that that the 5 so/sp description. I would imagine myself to be 5w4. I am going to look into transitions, so as to understand 5 to 8. The only other option would be a 1w9.

[UDP]

I do not seem very Alpha


I was talking with Gilligan today and it seemed to be fairly clear, especially given my recent understandings. He portrayed an example of "alpha" that I could not identify with much, and yet, I see every other alpha type and alpha person I know identifying with such.

Aside from that:

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=5773

• I believe I am
  Aristocratic
  Resolute
  Obstinate
  Process
  Static
  
• Difficult for me to say
  merry>serious
  careless>farsighted
  tactical or strategic
  positivist>negativist
  declarative>interrogative
  

[Joy]

I don't know if this matters, but the ISTj I mentioned (whose type I'm not totally certain of) was intelligent and would become enamored by anyone who spoke of intuitive or intellectual matters.

[FDG]

I don't know if this matters, but the ISTj I mentioned (whose type I'm not totally certain of) was intelligent and would become enamored by anyone who spoke of intuitive or intellectual matters.

Yes, many smart ISTjs are like this. Again, smarts are not type related.

[UDP]

I am really beginning to see how 1w9 and LSI are making great sense for me. And, not being alpha.

[UDP]

Does this profile seem to fit in with LSI / 1w9?

"Conceptualizer Director: These individuals consider life to be a process of maximizing achievements versus just attaining accomplishments. These achievements are maximized if they entail deep thought and profound integration of everything that they have learned. A consistent drive for self-mastery allows them to stay focused on their intentions and the more they are challenged the happier they are. Their thinking can be described as analytical, integrative and very complex. They are able to analyze a situation and build a vision that no one else could have even thought of, which allows for a natural long-range visioning to occur. In order to help others understand the vision, they will dress it up with logic because very few are able to just stay with the general concept. It is easy for them to grasp the interrelatedness of everything in their Universe and to see the reasons behind things. Maintaining their independence is important to them, because it allows them their need to be an independent thinker. The need for independence can be a problem in the interpersonal realm as people can misread it for arrogance versus the desire to come up with useful solutions that will help people in the long run. Staying on course of their vision is necessary for their very survival, and they find life dull and draining during the “lows” of that progression."

[Transigent]

Okay, so now that you are an admitting Beta, the game now is to all over the place?

Of course, my desire has always been to discover these abstract things and then bring them into reality, and this process is somewhat seen by me as progress, moving forward.

->

That being said, in terms of socionics I believe it would be unwise to discuss my type, as I have incorporated much of my learning and understanding of the socionics into who I am today; I am not just someone to be analyzed by socionics, but, I am someone who has become enriched by socionics.

This ain't or or even ....

That, combined with my own personal journey,

I caution people trying to determine what type I am because I am no longer playing by the rules of the game so to speak, I have gone my own way, and become the person I want to be.

Gimmie a P! P!

Now, this does not mean socionics is limited necessarily, but the current level of understanding - that if you are this type, you cannot be good at this or that - is not applicable to me.

It isn't applicable because it isn't true! Anyone can be good at anything if they wanted.

As I have said on the forum, seeing any sort of a weakness or room for improvement always intrigues me, so I will move towards growing in that area. And, if you really know how to use your functions properly, (it appears) as though you can develop 'weak functions' - but whether or not this means all functions increase in the same functional order formation, or that they actually change, I do not know. I would say the former at this time, because I feel I have become strong in Se, but even stronger in Ti, and perhaps Ne as well. I feel stronger in almost every function, than I used to.

I guess this could be general Beta. At least you are in the right quadra.

Finally, I will conclude by saying that to me, AWARENESS is the most important aspect to all of this. The more you are aware of what you are doing, the more you can control, adjust, modify, and so on. Ultimately, it is up to you - who you want to be and what you want to do.

Yeah, um, let me tell you a secret.

I can spot many INFp's because it seems that everything they say on subjects like this one I completely agree with. They have the without being an intellectual wasteland like an INTp is, so it seems that INFp's intuition shines brighter. Anyway, any time they begin on things like this "awareness", "improvement", "unlimited", "bringing to reality", or anything else like that "saying what everyone is thinking" I totally agree.

Many of the things on here, I totally agree with, and you sound exactly like should sound.

I guess maybe I should ask you, is what do YOU think is? Why do you think you don't have it as a main function? For what you want to achieve in life, it is actually the most important function you would WANT to have, so I guess I am not understanding why you are so down about it?

[Joy]

With a lot of people, it can be difficult to see which side of the coin (axis) they fall on within their quadra values. A Se type could easily look like a Ni type, or vice versa, and I think this is also true with Ne and Si. The rational functions are easier to distinguish, but they can be tricky in some people as well. (I think this is especially true with the hidden agenda, though it is also true with the dual seeking function.)

It's like I said to Ezra:

The thing about the 8/ENTj thing is that while an ENTj's Se is not self-sustaining, it is still one of their quadra values. It's something that is important to them, something that they strongly embrace. It's true that they have to receive it from external sources, but that can mean that they read books or listen to audio programs, have friends or a mate who provides it, a work environment that supplies it, etc. The important thing to understand is that they are incomplete without it. When they are provided with Se from their environment, as they insist happens and become unhealthy without, they try their best to adopt that Se as their own.

Remember that all of the information elements are on an axis, and that they other side of the coin (Se for a Ni type) is as much them as the first (Ni for a Ni type).

The fact that someone has a focus on Ni just makes them Beta/Gamma. To pin down some people's types within their quadra, you have to look at their temperament and, even more so, what they need and appreciate most from a partner.

[UDP]

Transigent - you really do not understand that I am IJ, do you? I am not going to bother arguing with you, because your inability to get past your -ness is trying.


WHY do you think my dual is ESTp? How can you possibly say I am dual seeking? creative?? Irrational?


I should have deleted that post, yes, once I really understood I was LSI.