I agree with most of what Justin wrote.
I feel no need to separate humans from nature, and nature is relatively meaningless (no higher purpose). This doesn't leave one free to rape and loot; otherworldly consequences shouldn't be the only thing preventing one from doing horrible things.
I basically agree with what Justin said too.
@Hugo
I don't see much point in discussing this subject with you, because you're very obviously not really trying to understand the mindset of people who think differently. As usual, you are just picking up the bits of what people said that you think confirm what you already believed in anyway. For instance, you just ignored the point that cogsci made.
I doubt you will ever understand that, yes, it is possible to believe that life is meaningless on a "cosmic" level and still not go on a rampage of killing and rape and etc. If you can't conceive that, and if you would go about doing such things if you thought life was meaningless, that says something about your character. Not everyone else's.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
You've made a pretty general remark which has no substance.
Who cares?
<3
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
this is much, much truer than you think.
Nice description of every post of yours.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Agreed, I've been saying this for a long time to little reception.this is much, much truer than you think.
Re: Is life meaningless?
First of all, the only thing meaningless here is your usage of the word "meaningless." It has no meaning in this context.
People who despair and say that life is meaningless are just depressed. If life was meaningless, they wouldn't care if life was meaningless or not. What they're ACTUALLY scared about is dying and there being no god. That's what I believe this question is about. If you're scared of there not existing a god, then go do drugs, read the Bible, meditate, do something. This kind of fear comes from lack of stimulation. People need to have both materialistic and spiritual experiences. An overly-materialistic person is wont to have these sorts of fears.
Nope.
Morality wouldn't be affected by determinism, because even if one believes in determinism, he is still of the perspective of making his own decisions, and is not aware of the mechanisms that prevent his freedom. Determinism is irrelevant.
Life can't be said to contain any intrinsic meaning, nor can any case be made for life being pointless.
Re: Is life meaningless?
There is nothing (in what you wrote) logically inconsistent with life and ethics being meaningless, and thusly giving license to loot, rape and murder. That could be completely true.
However, we come to the problem of who/what defines whether something has meaning. Cosmically, unless one believes in god(s), there is nothing to do so, and thusly any meaning which is given to these concepts is determined by us. Therefore, we are the ones who give life, and ethics, purpose and meaning - and for some, that may be none at all.
INTp
Re: Is life meaningless?
Well said.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
The religions from India basically got all this down several thousand years ago. However, like most religions, it was an attempt to capture the truth, but humanity cluttered it up, and often religions are just a means for speading mankinds own weaknesses. That is the way, though. It seems the truth is there waiting for those who want to see it.
It's all cycles.
"Life" is cycles.
You're just an individual manifestation of the whole. Everything else is as well. To really think in terms of "your life", and that you die when you no longer breath, is limited.
and so on and so on. UDP's philosophy course is in alpha Q if your wondering. But I don't mind if you're not, either. Main lesson: keep looking, keep going.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
42 *dies*
...lol.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Re: Is life meaningless?
i think this is flawed because it assumes that the basic drive of the human being is to loot, rape, and murder. you could also say something like "to say that life is meaningless is a license to love indiscriminately, live courageously, and spread life to others" instead of life you merely spread the death thought. that mindform always suicides.
human life is meaningful, but very pointless.
eh?
now what?
Life becomes meaningful only by the movement of an inner-conviction; without such a drive, life is, for all intents-and-purposes, meaningless.
That doesn't answer the question, but I believe it does provide direction as to where to go to find meaning.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
Right, but maybe the answers to this problem are less egocentric than we all think they are.
Transigent once said that nihilism is the philosophy of the child. The child is dependent on his parents, but nothing is dependent on him. But for the parents, the child is dependent on them, so how can life be meaningless in this context? The parents live for the child and think of that as their sole purpose for living; that is their "inner-conviction". So it seems to me that "meaning" is not absolute but relative.
Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)
"So it seems to me that "meaning" is not absolute but relative."
It could actually turn out either way.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
What purpose does a new born bird have? Its purpose is to mate and continue its species. Our meaning is no different. Evolution has created the EGO because it assists with our survival. Unfortunately due to our ego we think were are more special and important than we really are. We are no more important than animals, we are just different.
The meaning we have, is to ensure the survival of humans. Have 4 kids, develop the latest antibiotic, save lives in surgery or entertain people and make them happy. These things give our lives meaning.
Rape etc is detrimental to humans.
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
meatburger-I LOVE YOU!
Thank you, everyone else thought I was crazy
We are not defined by our function.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
looking to superiors to validate one's convictions is childish. nihilism is an acute fixation, a jaunt into worlds where semblance and illusion dance freely with substance and meaning. it is in no way an inferior mindform being, at the least, the functional equivalent of its antecedents whilst allowing for the dread realization that inherent contradiction =/= a neuter of the material's significance
Poor argument. You attribute intent to both an abstraction and (if there is no god or such being[s]) accidental phenomena. Elements of function do not imply intent - just look at programming bugs: even when there is intent, unintended side effects can occur.
INTp
Life is like a giant lollipop. Sometimes you have to fluff your tongue up enough to give it one massive lick all in one go.
I dont like to argue. In fact im not very good at it so i dont enjoy it. No one wins an argument.
Im not exactly sure what you mean, but i do not believe in higher beings and i do believe we are accidential phenomena. Elements of function do imply intent in my opinion. We do everything because we a) want to help ourselves or b) want to help others. This is the survival mechanism at work. The same thing happens with animals.
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
Just come back with something like, "Life is like a big furry coat. Sometimes you have to spread your hand wide enough to give it one massive pet all in one go."I dont like to argue. In fact im not very good at it so i dont enjoy it. No one wins an argument.
Im not exactly sure what you mean, but i do not believe in higher beings and i do believe we are accidential phenomena. Elements of function do imply intent in my opinion. We do everything because we a) want to help ourselves or b) want to help others. This is the survival mechanism at work. The same thing happens with animals.
ps. keep your hands off my fur
Hmmm, I need Jadae to be my personal sloganeer.
We are defined by purpose.
hahaha, no shit...Hmmm, I need Jadae to be my personal sloganeer.
That is one of my worst fears.Is life meaningless?
INFP
Dreamer,
consider that if life is meaningless,
so to is that fear.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
eh, so what...life's meaningless...who really cares? it could be worse...You could have been on this planet as a blade of grass...imagine how that little green fucker feels day in and day out.
*pats dreamer on the back* "it'll be ok."
*smiles at cracka*
INFP
You really made me feel sorry for the blade of grass. People stepping on it and wiping poo on it. Not realising that its a conscious being and all it wants to do is be proud and green, being as tall as it can be.
Brought a tear to my eye
I wasn't saying that life doesn't have meaning. We can make our lives meaningful or meaningless its up to us. To try to better the human race enough for me
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
And then one day the universe and the human race ceases to exist and everything you ever did to better the human race was actually pretty meaningless. Or something. I just can't work with that agendaI wasn't saying that life doesn't have meaning. We can make our lives meaningful or meaningless its up to us. To try to better the human race enough for meNor can I work without agenda like cracka does
Sometime younger I really understood the concept of death and that probably even the universe will die someday and then I had to struggle to get back my motivation to do absolutely anything. I was living with a purely material world view and I remember I got an insight where I understood the meaningless nature of anything material. It was around 20 years of age.
It took me time to get my motivation back and I needed to search the spiritual realm for that. I just can't make myself really put an effort on something that will eventually lead to a dead end of destruction. Even if it will happen after x billion years. It is still 100% meaningless.
Perhaps I deceive myself with my spirituality but it works in practice and gives me lots of motivation and a strong subjective sense of purpose and meaning and it even colours the material world with a whole new meaning as the material world acts as an important tool in the process.
So you may say "But your beliefs are not the TRUTH. You can't proove them!". Well imho the so called objective TRUTH is absolutely meaningless in a doomed world. So in order to even care about the TRUTH I first need to make the world and life look meaningful. And I can't achieve this without some sort of spiritual belief which paints a picture of eternal meaningfulness of things. So it comes down to working out a belief system which would be closest to the "spiritual TRUTH".
I have to believe that kind of system exists or I end up in a blind alley of meaninglessness.
Currently I'm opting for my own interpretation of Christianity which I think holds quite well with much of the empirical data from history and probable future too (if you look far enough and don't zoom into details). My beliefs are of course not a science. Spirituality or religion is never going to be a science because science is materialistic by nature. Making science a "religion" as I used to when younger is no use in solving the problem of meaninglessness. It just adds to the problem. Nowadays science for me is just a tool to understand material world. Of course new scientific discoveries about the essence of life and universe can have an effect on my spiritual beliefs too but my belief system is not very detailed so the effect is probably going to be smallish.
If an extremely developed alien race lands on earth and brings us a whole new kind of spiritual thinking then I may have to evaluate some parts of my beliefs and change them accordingly. Until then I think I'm pretty safe and motivated to keep going strong
Anyways it seems to me that some kind of conscious or subconscious denial of death (of self, people, life, universe) is needed in order to find meaning in a purely material world view. This was very true for me at least. As soon as the temporary nature of everything material was really "revealed" to me it changed pretty much everything in my thinking. Once the process of getting rid of hardcore materialistic thinking started it just kept on going and now after many years it is actually getting somewhere though I think it will keep on developing and reforming until I die.
.
"We are defined by purpose."
Nice, you said exactly what I said, except with one different word.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
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