INFps: can you see yourselves with an ESTp longterm?

[Blaze]

Sorry ehm, but I never really question what I want. When I enter a relationship I knwo what I want, otherwise I wouldn't enter it.

huh. maybe that's the problem? lol

sometimes my worst choices have resulted from what i think i want at the time!

*tries to crack a tiny wedge of openness in fdg's mind*

You are a woman. You can question what you want and hold the man in your fingers while doing it. I don't like to question what I want simply because, it's always clear from the start - again I don't start relationship with people "i just somehow like" but only if I really am already very much into the person.

it's absolutely not about like. of course you like the person, of course you are magnificently attracted to them. all i'm saying is that you get to these places of friction and it's all in how you resolve it. and as you go forward, you realize things about yourself and the other person and you grow...and the other person grows...and you talk about it....and negotiate....and come to a higher level.

sooo, the mini-crisis or whatever you want to call it, is a great opportunity for growth in the relationship. but not everybody takes this opportunity (like this girl you're talkin about) so the relationship whithers.

conflict in any relationship is sure to come, and it's a good thing is all i'm saying. generally speaking of course. :wink:

[Blaze]

ps what do you think being a woman has to do with it?

[FDG]

ps what do you think being a woman has to do with it?

ahh true you are a thinking type woman sorry. probably i should change it into "feeling"? i don't know but i always see feelers as being much better at handling arguments.

i don't know if arguments strenghten a relationship. i've experienced it and in the end you just don't have any love any more because you have used all the emotion to argue. i guess it's personal.

[Hector]

This is a little off topic, but what is a male INFp and female ESTp relationship like?

[ESTP]

This is a little off topic, but what is a male INFp and female ESTp relationship like?

Complicated and frustrating, with mind-blowing sex.

[Blaze]

ps what do you think being a woman has to do with it?

ahh true you are a thinking type woman sorry. probably i should change it into "feeling"? i don't know but i always see feelers as being much better at handling arguments.

i don't know if arguments strenghten a relationship. i've experienced it and in the end you just don't have any love any more because you have used all the emotion to argue. i guess it's personal.

yes you are right the feelers basically run the relationship! hahaha which is fine cuz i should not be left in charge.

that said, conflicts can strengthen a relationship if they are handled correctly.

[Blaze]

thought just came to mind about me and my estp ex:

we both are thinkers, so i guess you could kinda see where that would go, but anyway, he was actually a little better at Fi even though it's his polr, because of his Se...he picked up on the facts of situations better than i and he was always more diplomatic. but i think i was better at Fe...like i can express feelings pretty easily and deal with other people's feelings pretty easily, but he really could not. he'd hide his feelings all the time except for anger.

so this is where infp or isfp comes in...they masterfully get it out of ya!

[ESTP]

thought just came to mind about me and my estp ex:

we both are thinkers, so i guess you could kinda see where that would go, but anyway, he was actually a little better at Fi even though it's his polr, because of his Se...he picked up on the facts of situations better than i and he was always more diplomatic. but i think i was better at Fe...like i can express feelings pretty easily and deal with other people's feelings pretty easily, but he really could not. he'd hide his feelings all the time except for anger.

so this is where infp or isfp comes in...they masterfully get it out of ya!

Im like that, very good at expressing anger, not much else though. Except when it comes to INFps...I get all girlie-girl, I dont know really how to explain it, ahah "emotional"? perhaps, seeing as how I associate the girlie-girl types to be more inclined to show a lot of emotion. I'm so bad at it, I cannot even talk about it properly. INFPs evoke something though, that I don't feel a lot. It's unusal because I start to over-react, or I just dont know how to act because of it. It's a strange world, this whole feeling thing...

[Blaze]

This is a little off topic, but what is a male INFp and female ESTp relationship like?

Complicated and frustrating, with mind-blowing sex.

Haha, well I guess it depends on the INFp that you've got. Sometimes it's exactly how you've described it, but often times, it's not all that frustrating.

With that being said, most of the INFps that I've related with fell into the "Complicated and frustrating, with mind-blowing sex" category.

i'm not an estp but i'm in a relationships with an infp, so i can comment, no? haha

infp's are complicated, aren't they? they see clearly how dynamics play out over time which is a complex thing. they think they're simple though. but they're not. but they are very hot and yes the sex is mind-blowing lol.

[ScarlettLux]

Hahaha, lol, I love the good stuff being said about INFps =D It's true though.. we're skilled in bed.. I think it's the pent up sexual energy we have.. that's why we make such good art/music.. it's merely sexuality channeled

[ESTP]

Hahaha, lol, I love the good stuff being said about INFps =D It's true though.. we're skilled in bed.. I think it's the pent up sexual energy we have.. that's why we make such good art/music.. it's merely sexuality channeled

INFps are good in bed, but very bad at getting back to people! Sometimes, the person I'm preffering to, I want to deck him in the fuckin' face...but the moment I see him I just melt. I hate INFps...B.S!

[misutii]

Sometimes, the person I'm preffering to, I want to deck him in the fuckin' face...but the moment I see him I just melt. I hate INFps...B.S!

really maybe you should give him a good thump, INFps need a reality check sometimes, so long as you clean him up afterwards I honestly don't think he'll take offense lol

[misutii]

Well, let me get it straight all:

we dated for 2 months. after 1 month she was saying how she loved me, and how i was the best date she's ever had since then. during the 2nd month everything proceeded well and there were no real "problems". then she went on a pre-planned vacation, and she stopped replying to smsss. Then after one month, she asked me out. Now I wouldn't have had a problem if the relationship was casual even at first, but IF you tell me you love me and all that stuf...I get attached. And if I get attached...it hurts a lot to become disattached without any explanation.

Also thereafter she got back with her boyfriend. However our attraction was way too strong, so at her birthday we ended up uh, having sex, after everybody had gone home. But at that point everything was already compromised. Now we hear about eachother on msn from time to time: the potential for a great relationship is clear, but i am not going to play games.

k i understand your frustration now, she seems to be immature and to have not developed principals yet (like even if she did finally come around and date you how could you trust her? especially knowing that she would cheat on her bf)

if you want to try anyway I'd recommend just throwing all the bullshit aside and confronting her up front and direct about it all, it would force her to question herself and speed up the process. I know you said you dont like games but in the least her reaction would be entertaining and if dissatisfied it could provide you with the stimulus to put it all behind you and move on for good

[thePirate]

theres hope, maybe due to naivete, but I honestly have no clue.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

thePirate,you're talking to dead people.

[thePirate]

lol their still around, plus I want updates

your ILI now? dangit.

[silverchris9]

ESTps can be very loyal. Depends on what their principles/aims are. If being morally whatever is one of their goals, they can be the most principled folks around.

However, besides that, my suggestion: have sex with a few SLEs, date around a bunch of people, while maintaining an intense but somewhat sexually charged friendship (maybe you did it once or twice, maybe you're each other's booty call, etc.) with one particular SLE (named Joanne) who you finally settle down with and marry when you're both in your mid-to-late thirties, saying, "come on, Joanne, we're both gonna get married some time, and I might as well marry you so I don't have to cheat on some poor other girl with you. Whaddya say?"

Then Joanne will say, "What are you talkin' about? Me? Married? You're kidding!" Then she'll give you a little shove, but you have to make sure that you subtly show her that you're upset by her rejection of you. Then you sort of distance yourself from her for a few weeks (or scenes), long enough for her to realize that she really needs you in her life, and then at a mutual friends' wedding (which you were going to go to together, because you're each other's go-to date for weddings), she'll see you and you'll kiss, and in some dramatic way, you'll confess that you're made for each other and go ahead and get engaged (maybe some sort of thing where she proposes to you, male-female role reversal, etc., etc.). Then you ride off into the sunset together after totally upstaging your mutual friend with your much more dramatic and exciting (and sexier, can't forget sexier) love story ('cause IEIs and SLEs are the most exciting and sexiest types).

[matilda]

If being morally whatever is one of their goals, they can be the most principled folks around.

but isn't that Fi?

[crazedrat]

I think maybe the idea of commitment is flawed, but we are made to believe it's an ideal. But when I think about a committed relationship, it's always as an ideal in my mind. Never as something real. With real relationships I prefer things to be more fluid. I mean, if I'm in love with someone then at that point I expect commitment. But I don't think ESTps will cheat on you while you two are madly in love with one another. Probably they'll just get bored and move on, like you will too, eventually. Maybe..
Anyway, better to just avoid commitment altogether and be strong for yourself.
There is the other possibility that commitment comes from shared resources..
In that case getting some resources might create a social need for commitment. Generally, though, ESTps work their asses off and dont really need help in that department.

[silverchris9]

but isn't that Fi?

Not necessarily. Same action, reframed via Se. If for some reason an SLE decides that one of his or her goals in life is to live up to a given moral code (or better yet, some sort of semi-mystic Ni ideal), she would presumably pursue that goal with the same ridiculous capacity for achievement with which she pursues everything. Functions generally have more to do with how someone does something than what they do.

You all make me laugh.

I bet you'll all end up with conflictors the way you go about this.

Are you trying to say that relationship plans based on Hollywood fantasies and Broadway musicals don't go over well in real life? Drat. I would still never end up with an LSE. They'd freak out over some unimportant practical detail, and I'd bolt for the door.

[silverchris9]

No, I'm trying to say that you seem to all be certain you are a specific type, and then you look for a specific other type, and then you look for stereotypical qualities you think that other type has, instead of looking for people you like.

An example - you think you are IEI based on a dubious self-typing of a never proven theory, and you look for people who are SLEs , cause this theory says they are your duals. And then the best of it all - to look for them, you look for people who have qualities you do not like!

Find one logical error. Or five.

. Yes, fine, that's all true.

Regardless of socionics, I'm unsure what type of person I'll end up with, if I "end up with" anyone at all. But when/if that happens, I'd imagine it would be based on a feeling of some sort? There are people who I vibe well with (not necessarily romantically). Most of these people I can type in the beta quadra, if I twist things around enough. One day (maybe), one such person and I will find ourselves romantically attracted to one another, and assuming no extraordinary circumstances intervene, we'll hook up or whatever. Then I can busy myself with stretching socionics to make me and her duals. Isn't that what everyone does?

And then the best of it all - to look for them, you look for people who have qualities you do not like!

That is excellent.

[thePirate]

No, I'm trying to say that you seem to all be certain you are a specific type, and then you look for a specific other type, and then you look for stereotypical qualities you think that other type has, instead of looking for people you like.

I get this from my friends who know Im into this stuff. its simple and effective advice, but its incomplete. accepting this advice presupposes an acceptance of reality - the people in this thread responding are IEI 4's. assuming you guys are like me, I easily get emotionally invested into concepts and ideas of people and relationships more then the actual person and situations that lie before me. theres a disconnect, an idealization that blocks off my natural connection with people, relating to my own feelings of unworthiness and rejection. its fucked up but in a way really connecting with people on the level of authenticity I want would lead to the destruction of my "ideal self", an image that has brought me comfort and relief from pain when other people wouldn't/couldn't or when I was just too afraid to ask for it. theres alot of things that come with that, I think the key is to release that image but doing that bears alot of uncertainty, alot of questioning, and alot of doubt.

Just live. I bet your unconscious will do a better job feeling out who suits you (or not) than any rational thought you can ever make. If it feels good, then it's right.

you say this because, if you are SLE, this is how you have operated your whole life. personally, I dont know if what you say is true for me. theres a comfort that comes from thinking and from these fantasies; naturally, I feel a pull to operate this way. my thoughts, in this sense, have been my sanctuary. to rip it apart like that feels a little vulnerable. it takes effort.

your absolutely right though, and it is great advice. but talking realistically, how may of us are just going to say fuck it and immediately start living this way? dont think it really works for us like that; theres a proccess we need to go through first.

[Creepy-male]

Just live. I bet your unconscious will do a better job feeling out who suits you (or not) than any rational thought you can ever make. If it feels good, then it's right.

Most people probably aren't going to hear their unconscious over the mating circuits.

[silverchris9]

I think there is an appropriate balance between living in the moment and living in theory. If nothing else, the concepts of "introverted intuition" and "extroverted sensation" (and Jung deserves most of the credit for this bit) provide an interesting phenomenology of two seemingly opposite ways of going about things. Both have their advantages and their drawbacks. Living in theory (and I'm not sure that this is at all socionics related) has produced, for me, a very nice interior world, something that it is difficult to change or take away. But I'll start spouting nonsense if I go any further on this track.

pirate, that was some interesting stuff about ideal selves, etc. I suppose I am extraordinarily reliant on my non-existent self-conception, but I rather like my non-existent self-conception, and my non-existent self-conception inspires me to make the real me more interesting, I think. But it is interesting (and I've noticed this too, in my writing) that we try to aggrandize these self-images with the goal of attracting someone (or feeling "worthy" of someone or whatever one's individual goal is) to connect to on that profoundly intimate level (the enneagram "name" for this thing about myself is sexual instinctual type), but these very images succeed only in distancing us further from the very contact we hope to make. The means of obtaining the goal makes the goal more distant.

[Ezra]

It's all about finding the right person to commit to. This rarely happens when you're 18 or sometimes even 25. It becomes more likely as time draws on. That's why SLEs might not commit.

[hardrunningrabbit]

Of course.

In my case, it's about reducing tension simply give myself a healthy number of opportunities to make connections.

I feel like I could explode when I'm sitting in an otherwise empty room, perfectly still. I can't relax -- upstairs it's always a high pressure cooker.

I do find that if I do talk with an estp woman, all I really have to do is get the ball rolling and throw a few curveballs inbetween crumbtrails; they seem more than willing to carry the brunt of the conversation, or at least tell me what's "obvious."

(It's so cute when people litter their speech with that word.)

So I'll reiterate: of course I could see myself with an estp longterm. Simple conversation can be fucking exciting in itself. Ezra's tales are fascinating. I think, however, I may need to practice putting my goods in the shop window, so to speak, because all they seem to need is a glance to smash their way thru.

[crazedrat]

I actually prefer that we don't formally commit at all, we just grow together until one day we look at eachother and realize we can't leave one another. It's like the commitment just forms on its own. No reason to try to pretend you have more love than you actually do.. formal commitment just seems like a fantasy people have about their relationships, but doesn't reflect the real status of the relationship. Anyway, you can always remain friends.

@pirate: you actually just have to rip through it in the end, but you've got to slowly learn that the only solution is to rip through it.

[redbaron]

I actually prefer that we don't formally commit at all, we just grow together until one day we look at eachother and realize we can't leave one another. It's like the commitment just forms on its own. No reason to try to pretend you have more love than you actually do.. formal commitment just seems like a fantasy people have about their relationships, but doesn't reflect the real status of the relationship. Anyway, you can always remain friends.

I love love love this philosophy! this is how it always should be.

[discojoe]

infps: can you see yourselves with an ESTp longterm?

That's like asking if they can see themselves eating shit longterm.

[silverchris9]

I actually prefer that we don't formally commit at all, we just grow together until one day we look at eachother and realize we can't leave one another. It's like the commitment just forms on its own. No reason to try to pretend you have more love than you actually do.. formal commitment just seems like a fantasy people have about their relationships, but doesn't reflect the real status of the relationship. Anyway, you can always remain friends.

That's what I said about Joanne. Anyway, I agree.

I can totally see myself with an ESTp longterm. Why would you want someone who would be boring and predictable? I'd much rather be with someone I can't anticipate.

[JWC3]

idk If I could see myself with anyone long term... and that's kind of depressing.

"We are all alone, born alone, die alone, and — in spite of True Romance magazines — we shall all someday look back on our lives and see that, in spite of our company, we were alone the whole way. I do not say lonely — at least, not all the time — but essentially, and finally, alone. This is what makes your self-respect so important, and I don’t see how you can respect yourself if you must look in the hearts and minds of others for your happiness."
— Hunter S. Thompson (The Proud Highway: Saga of a Desperate Southern Gentleman, 1955-1967)

I've pretty much always had this kind of ideology.

Individualistic much?

I've always been more collectivist than what's, strictly speaking, normal for how individualistic America is.

[JWC3]

No, I'm a collectivist too. I'm just able to be comfortable & secure with myself.

I'm not entirely sure having a self concept that operates independently from other people is something worth the trade off of loneliness. Though I understand that you are most likely still happy, despite carrying a mindset that would most likely do the reverse for me so *shrugs* To each their own.

[crazedrat]

Thompsons quote is too nihilistic for me to take seriously. When you die, don't you want to be looking back on your life and remembering the good things you accomplished / times you had?

[silverchris9]

"We are all alone, born alone, die alone, and — in spite of True Romance magazines — we shall all someday look back on our lives and see that, in spite of our company, we were alone the whole way. I do not say lonely — at least, not all the time — but essentially, and finally, alone. This is what makes your self-respect so important, and I don’t see how you can respect yourself if you must look in the hearts and minds of others for your happiness."
— Hunter S. Thompson (The Proud Highway: Saga of a Desperate Southern Gentleman, 1955-1967)

That's just giving up. Even if you never get another person to merge with you, or even if, like Walt Whitman, you have to touch yourself, your second self, you don't stop longing for another person to cut into your solitude. You have to give up on the solitude. You have to keep longing and striving for something beyond this horrific isolation we have within ourselves. Surely we can have one person, out of this whole terrible crowd, that we can trust with our innermost beings? It takes a special kind of intelligence to track another person through all their twists and changes and match them as they wind into life's curves, but it is possible, and it is powerful to believe in that possibility, if only because it dams up a lot of potential energy which can come flooding out at will.

[JWC3]

Don't get me wrong, I love people & need them in my life, but I also need a break from them after a while. I feel more energized when I'm having space to myself. I also dislike the thought of having to depend on another person.

Maybe this just ties into the differences between introverts & extroverts.

Maybe the first part yes, but I also view dependence as weakness and therefore disdain it. Without people to bring the passion to my life, I just sorta exist. It's really uninspired.

[crazedrat]

I think a good core of individualism is important but a complete lack of dependence really indicates detachment which is a whole new problem.

[JWC3]

I agree with this.

+1

[discojoe]

That's just giving up. Even if you never get another person to merge with you, or even if, like Walt Whitman, you have to touch yourself, your second self, you don't stop longing for another person to cut into your solitude. You have to give up on the solitude. You have to keep longing and striving for something beyond this horrific isolation we have within ourselves. Surely we can have one person, out of this whole terrible crowd, that we can trust with our innermost beings? It takes a special kind of intelligence to track another person through all their twists and changes and match them as they wind into life's curves, but it is possible, and it is powerful to believe in that possibility, if only because it dams up a lot of potential energy which can come flooding out at will.

Well said, gayboy.

[JWC3]

Well said, gayboy.

I agree with this also.

[Ezra]

idk If I could see myself with anyone long term... and that's kind of depressing.

"We are all alone, born alone, die alone, and — in spite of True Romance magazines — we shall all someday look back on our lives and see that, in spite of our company, we were alone the whole way. I do not say lonely — at least, not all the time — but essentially, and finally, alone. This is what makes your self-respect so important, and I don’t see how you can respect yourself if you must look in the hearts and minds of others for your happiness."
— Hunter S. Thompson (The Proud Highway: Saga of a Desperate Southern Gentleman, 1955-1967)

I've pretty much always had this kind of ideology.

Very standard IEI thing. My girl thinks exactly the same way. She once quoted to me from the novel Fight Club: "It's easy to cry when you realize everyone you love will reject you or die".

Personally I find it extremely depressing. I can't believe you lot even like thinking like that. And it doesn't exactly make me want to commit to someone I feel like is going to fuck off after a while.