my type

[Exodus]

Do you really think you could have Fe as a quadra value? I personally don't buy it.

i would agree that there is more evidence to the contrary, but if i were certain, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I said earlier: after some persuation I finally get an answer out of him (INTp Erkki) and it's something like, "If I hadn't thought it was a good idea, I wouldn't have gone along with it. Duh. ".
similar?

I think it's just logical, really. You don't argue with someone if you agree with, or believe, what they're saying.

Not unless you seek to determine whether or not they believe what they do for the right or logical reasons.

Yeah, I do it occasionally, for that reason. Or for a mental work-out.

[KSpin]

I don't care why people believe what they do, to be honest, as long as they believe things that make sense.

[Exodus]

I don't care why people believe what they do, to be honest, as long as they believe things that make sense.

That doesn't make much sense.

[Gilly]

This is interesting because I've seen a lot of stuff written about how Gammas try to correct the new ideas of Alphas (i.e., saying it wouldn't work, is impractical, etc.). But I think Alphas also may play a similar role of "critic," though on different grounds.

Yeah, Alphas would most likely criticize something for lacking conceptual content, whereas Gammas might criticize something for being extreme or wildly unlikely.

This is an extremely dangerous, and mostly invalid, distinction.

[Exodus]

This is interesting because I've seen a lot of stuff written about how Gammas try to correct the new ideas of Alphas (i.e., saying it wouldn't work, is impractical, etc.). But I think Alphas also may play a similar role of "critic," though on different grounds.

Yeah, Alphas would most likely criticize something for lacking conceptual content, whereas Gammas might criticize something for being extreme or wildly unlikely.

This is an extremely dangerous, and mostly invalid, distinction.

How so?

[Gilly]

It just is. It's based off of a far too literal interpretation of how Quadra values manifest in real life, IMO. Plus, it's just plain silly to criticize ideas for "lack of conceptual content"

[Exodus]

It just is. It's based off of a far too literal interpretation of how Quadra values manifest in real life, IMO.

Fair enough.

Plus, it's just plain silly to criticize ideas for "lack of conceptual content"

Why? If someone is just rehashing the obvious, criticism is warranted.

[Gilly]

Conceptual stuff can be obvious. Unobvious things can be very concrete. Where's the issue here?

[Exodus]

Conceptual stuff can be obvious. Unobvious things can be very concrete. Where's the issue here?

Let me rephrase that.

I mean people who talk a lot without really saying anything (or anything new, or interesting), which clearly violates TiNe values.

[aestrivex]

Do you really think you could have Fe as a quadra value? I personally don't buy it.

i would agree that there is more evidence to the contrary, but if i were certain, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I said earlier: after some persuation I finally get an answer out of him (INTp Erkki) and it's something like, "If I hadn't thought it was a good idea, I wouldn't have gone along with it. Duh. ".
similar?

not really, but its conceivable that i might say something to a similar effect. the translation of a statement like that is "shut up and leave me alone already."

[Gilly]

Conceptual stuff can be obvious. Unobvious things can be very concrete. Where's the issue here?

Let me rephrase that.

I mean people who talk a lot without really saying anything (or anything new, or interesting), which clearly violates TiNe values.

Or don't realize that what they're saying is convoluted/contradictory. Fair enough.

[Jonathan]

It just is. It's based off of a far too literal interpretation of how Quadra values manifest in real life, IMO.

I completely agree. The stuff in Quadra-value-related literature that says Gammas are any more likely than any other quadra to criticize something because it's different from conventional notions is just plain wrong. In fact, ESFps are pretty unconventional in their own way, and Gamma NTs often come up with unconventional ideas.

Interestingly, my observation was that Hotel was demonstrating how Alphas tend to criticize ideas not because they're lacking conceptual content, but because they go against the system as the Alpha person understands it. I think a typical undercurrent in Alpha criticism is "You wouldn't say that if you really understood the system." Alphas are very sensitive to ideas they see as stemming from misunderstandings or perversions of the base system, and they're most likely to challenge other people's basic understanding.

Gamma criticism is more likely to be related to the fact that something doesn't work (in the Gamma person's opinion). It's like saying "That's not going to work the way you're trying to do it. Try it this way instead." It has nothing to do with whether the idea is unconventional or "far out"; that's one of the persistent myths in Socionics.

[UDP]

Any conclusive thoughts, niffweed?

[aestrivex]

Any conclusive thoughts, niffweed?

do i have conclusive thoughts? do you know where you are? do you need a drink of water? how many fingers?

[UDP]

I did not ask if you were a 6 year old girl, I asked because I have not followed this thread, and wondered if you gained anything from it.

[Jonathan]

Actually, Niffweed, I think it's good that you're keeping your options open. I am too. After all, with these Socionics conferences Rick has set up, we might get a completely different impression looking into this stuff "in person."

[Exodus]

Interestingly, my observation was that Hotel was demonstrating how Alphas tend to criticize ideas not because they're lacking conceptual content, but because they go against the system as the Alpha person understands it. I think a typical undercurrent in Alpha criticism is "You wouldn't say that if you really understood the system." Alphas are very sensitive to ideas they see as stemming from misunderstandings or perversions of the base system, and they're most likely to challenge other people's basic understanding.

Excellent point.