Role-Ignoring in ESI and LIE Duality

[Elmira]

Stratiyevskaya used this statement in her description of LIE’s Fe value and it made me raise an eyebrow.
“He[ESI] values good humor and jokes, charges all with his joviality and optimism, loves to tell anecdotes. Due to these qualities, Jack soothes and relaxes his eternally guarded dual, Dreiser.”
If the ESI is FE ignoring, why would an ESI care about these traits?

From experience, yes, I am soothed by LIE’s presence but I wouldn’t attribute it to their agreeable and friendly nature. In fact, when LIE behaves in this manner, it makes me lethargic and I lose interest in conversing with them.
As should be expected from a Fe ignoring individual when faced with Fe function. I would attribute LIE being able to lower ESI’s guard to their Te function.

I had an old classmate that noted once I appeared ‘calm’ around an LIE coworker. Her observation wasn’t wrong, but it would be wrong from a socionics view for another to say it was his Fe function that manifested as “one of us” smile and ‘joviality’ that relaxed me. Instead it was the way that if our boss gave us a task without clear instructions, different to our daily responsibilities, he would turn to me and start delegating who was doing what and how to get it done. I wouldn’t even get a chance to start thinking the worrying thoughts of “where do I start? Can I even do this?” that makes me all tense and guarded. If one of the work’s procedures messed up before a sense of panic could settle in me, he was already sharing a solution.

But let’s consider that duals do react positively to each other's roles, at least in the way Stratiyevskaya suggests. Then LIE should find ease in ESI’s Ti role.

From my perspective, I haven’t seen LIE enjoy my Ti role, in fact, they look disinterested or bored. But I obviously wouldn’t fully know their feelings about this.

Am I wrong?
Do LIE enjoy ESI’s role? Do other ESI enjoy LIE’s Fe role? Or is this just an inconsistency/oversight written by Stratiyevskaya?

[Renna]

I don’t know. But as an ILI talking with ESI, sometime everything feel down because none of the two trying to light the mood, boost some energy , and it can discourage both to move their ass to get something done, instead just talk about all the negative side of things.

LIE role Fe as a tool to push everyone to work their ass, or to make business deals. ESI may not directly need it in like/dislike sense, but need it in practical sense.

[Beautiful sky]

LIE enjoy ESI

[kuno]

Yeah I can’t see why an ESI would enjoy such a lighthearted atmosphere if they ignore Fe. I’ve heard that ESI has “positive Fe,” which I think means something like, their Fe manifests in positive emotions, so I guess when ESI do get around to engaging in their Fe, it’s largely to express positive emotions?? And maybe the archetypal ESI would enjoy a lighthearted atmosphere because then there is more ease—actually, I don’t know what I’m talking about lol

I personally don’t enjoy engaging in my ignoring function (Se) at all. I only do so if there’s a need for it, because otherwise it’s a chore. I can imagine having to heed the emotional atmosphere, and even add to it, would be a chore for an ESI and an EII. I see ESIs as mainly appreciating the leading Te of the LIE as it helps them get to work in an efficient way.

But of course, at the end of the day, every ESI is different.

[fjoerd]

Yeah I can’t see why an ESI would enjoy such a lighthearted atmosphere if they ignore Fe. I’ve heard that ESI has “positive Fe,” which I think means something like, their Fe manifests in positive emotions, so I guess when ESI do get around to engaging in their Fe, it’s largely to express positive emotions?? And maybe the archetypal ESI would enjoy a lighthearted atmosphere because then there is more ease—actually, I don’t know what I’m talking about lol

I personally don’t enjoy engaging in my ignoring function (Se) at all. I only do so if there’s a need for it, because otherwise it’s a chore. I can imagine having to heed the emotional atmosphere, and even add to it, would be a chore for an ESI and an EII. I see ESIs as mainly appreciating the leading Te of the LIE as it helps them get to work in an efficient way.

But of course, at the end of the day, every ESI is different.

I think when it comes to ignoring Fe for Fi-types, it just means rejecting evaluating other people by social norms and standards, and approaching them by how the types personally feel about them instead. This could explain how, on one hand, they can have a strong, sometimes unexplainable distrust towards people who appear to be nice and charming to others, if they feel, under the surface, there's something wrong with them, and how, on the other hand, deeply they can feel for "misfit" types other people ignore or look down upon (because measured by external standards, "misfits" are often unsuccessful, unreliable, refuse to behave in an acceptable way in social situations, they can be even anti-social, etc.), if they see the potential or the good under the bad in them. But Fe still has to be strong, it has to have the St-dimension, since "misfits" are not the same, and the Fi-type has to be able to approach and treat these people in a unique way according to the person's unique traits and circumstances.

Edited to add: In other words, everybody likes a lighthearted, peaceful atmosphere, but Fi-types, especially Fi-Se types, by preferring emotional honesty over pretending or putting too much consideration into the circumstances or the consequences (Ne PoLR , Fe ignoring), might not have much trouble to break it if there's people in the group who they don't like and want to express that, even if they're alone with their opinions. If the type is unhealthy and very self-righteous, it can be really unbearable to others because it just ruins the mood for everybody all the time, and it can lead to complete ostracism.

Elaborating even further, a major difference between SEI and ESI is this: A SEI is able to create and maintain the peaceful atmosphere (this is why everybody values them, especially the types who are aware of being incapable of what seems to be so easy and natural for a SEI), and fears the consequences of disrupting the atmosphere (1D Ne suggestive), even if it would be warranted (Se ignoring), while an ESI, though technically capable of the same on occasion (4D Si demonstrative), prefers to use the Ego Block functions instead which leads to a completely different daily operation.

[Squirrel]

If the ESI is FE ignoring, why would an ESI care about these traits?

Answer is very very very very easy

Ignoring is not PoLR , it still exists and works in the shadows

[fjoerd]

Yeah I can’t see why an ESI would enjoy such a lighthearted atmosphere if they ignore Fe. I’ve heard that ESI has “positive Fe,” which I think means something like, their Fe manifests in positive emotions, so I guess when ESI do get around to engaging in their Fe, it’s largely to express positive emotions?? And maybe the archetypal ESI would enjoy a lighthearted atmosphere because then there is more ease—actually, I don’t know what I’m talking about lol

I personally don’t enjoy engaging in my ignoring function (Se) at all. I only do so if there’s a need for it, because otherwise it’s a chore. I can imagine having to heed the emotional atmosphere, and even add to it, would be a chore for an ESI and an EII. I see ESIs as mainly appreciating the leading Te of the LIE as it helps them get to work in an efficient way.

But of course, at the end of the day, every ESI is different.

I mean, just imagine, how easily these two types can grow sincere hatred against each other. They read each other perfectly, they're perfectly aware of what the other party is all about, but deep down they don't value each other's capabilities all that much, and, if things go south, they will use their Ego functions in a selfish manner and will turn their demonstractive functions against each other's Ego to invalidate one another.

Consider a hypothetical example:

SEI organizes a small pleasant familial gathering and invites a few people. Everything goes fine until the ESI guest realizes, she hates one of the male guests in the group because she perceives him as evil or immoral (Fi base). She bluntly expresses her opinion out of the blue, to the complete shock of everybody else, and starts to pressure the SEI host to stick up, acknowledge how evil the evil person is and send him home (Se creative). SEI tries to smooth out the situation by saying, Oh noes, he's not that bad, he didn't really mean it, why don't we just calm down a little, try to get along and not ruin this thing, I put my heart into this. (Tries to use Fe creative to mediate and to encourage sympathy in one another to save the situation, even though the SEI knows, things have started to fall apart already - Ni-role, while probably the quickest and most efficient way of handling the situation would be to use Te to simply put the misbehaving guest into place, but that's SEI's PoLR, so it's a no-go). ESI just cannot be tamed and says, I don't care about this stupid event anymore, there's nothing special about it, and if you don't do what I demand, then you're on his side and you're just like him (shows poor and one-dimensional negative Te reasoning and expresses how she doesn't value SEI's main strengths, but also because of her Ne PoLR, she doesn't realize, she's about to lose her friend if she keeps going). SEI loses his temper, and says, Oh, because you're so perfect, right? (Se pushback), and proceeds with his 4D Fi demonstrative on the spot, which is just as good as ESI's base, but used in a negative way, to give a reality-check to ESI, and to show her, she's no better than anyone else. At this point, ESI runs away crying, the other guests leave and continue in the next-door bar instead while SEI breaks down and mourns all of his efforts that went to waste.

So, you're right, these two types are just nothing alike though are able to size up each other very well.

p.s. Sorry for spamming you, and from OP for derailing, I just got a little excited from over-thinking, lol.

[kuno]

@fjoerd I don’t know why but that scenario you came up with felt a little too familiar to me and it made me so nervous just picturing it LOL. I’d hate to be in that situation, because I’d react exactly that way. A friend’s mom is ESI, and she and I get along well, but there have been times where she has wanted me to stick up for her values and it stresses me out a bit. I have to become creative with the way I smooth out the tension.

I want to be forceful like that sometimes. I feel like I’m a wimp compared to ESIs. However, whenever someone rubs me the wrong way and pushes me too far, I can suddenly blast out my hidden Se and it comes out very unexpectedly and harshly. It’s always painful to remember those instances.

[Elmira]

Really? I can't imagine doing that. It sounds very naïve to believe that anything good will come out of practically outing a friend in an event, like what can be done? Exile that 'evil' man out of the party? Sounds unrealistic.

[Sol]

"Stratiyevskaya used this statement in her description"

forget about Stratiyevskaya's doubtful quality book

"loves to tell anecdotes"

for base Fi this should be among least of F types. joking is more Fe and extraverted

"optimism"

more for strong Ni

"Due to these qualities, Jack soothes and relaxes his eternally guarded dual, Dreiser."

LIE gets rather more of use from the support in Fi. The support in weak nonvalued regions is secondary, besides better to be careful and lesser direct.

Among popular books in English I may recommend only Filatova's book.

[Beautiful sky]

Joking is not Fe
Any type can make jokes
Fi types can tease and joke too

Typical attitude of ESI is more Fi than Fe. It’s the difference between saying you live in a state of Fe all the time or just pops of it here and there but you’re mostly in the Fi world. I for one can be very funny in a goody way but not in an age -sharp and quick with words and noticing what to laugh at when. I know this because if you put me across from an ESE you can see that difference

[fjoerd]

Really? I can't imagine doing that. It sounds very naïve to believe that anything good will come out of practically outing a friend in an event, like what can be done? Exile that 'evil' man out of the party? Sounds unrealistic.

The example is not about outing the SEI friend, and the male guest is not necessarily a friend of ESI's; it's about what @kuno said, pressuring the friend to stick up to her values. And when that doesn't happen (because someone with a Te PoLR not necessarily can handle a situation like that in a way that could make everyone happy but someone with a Te-role maybe could manage it with greater confidence), the type understands it as a form of disloyalty and rationalizes that disloyalty one-sidedly and a series of back-and-forth hypothetically could lead to a disaster. It's about Te suggestive seeking Te at the wrong place.

[Elmira]

My mistake, I should've used 'their' rather than 'a.'
I still don't relate to the example, it just come off naive.

[fjoerd]

My mistake, I should've used 'their' rather than 'a.'
I still don't relate to the example, it just come off naive.

Yeah, the example is very sketchy, careless and exagerrated, and I assumed both types are unhealthy to a degree, - the ESI is too self-righteous and the SEI is too people-pleasing - and I just imagined how would play out if an unhealthy ESI started hammering a Te PoLR type with her Te suggestive.

[kuno]

Really? I can't imagine doing that. It sounds very naïve to believe that anything good will come out of practically outing a friend in an event, like what can be done? Exile that 'evil' man out of the party? Sounds unrealistic.

I also just think that the ESI in this scenario isn’t probably a healthy example. A more well-adjusted ESI might know when is and isn’t the time to bring up such a sensitive topic. Maybe this might require using a bit of Fe, I’m not sure. I’d be more than willing to talk seriously to a friend who may have done something bad, but more privately.

[Beautiful sky]

My mistake, I should've used 'their' rather than 'a.'
I still don't relate to the example, it just come off naive.

I spoke with the EIE at work who uses Fe and she said compare you and I you are so much calmer, when I speak with you you can see that you are thinking about things internally whereas I am saying things and laughing and reacting and later thinking why did I say that?