Discussion of Si PoLR in LIEs-ENTjs

[Expat]

I thought of a way to describe it .

For instance, my car. Its inside is a mess. It's not that I don't see it or notice it, or even that I'm not bothered by it.

It's more that I think, "if I clean it now, I will have to go on cleaning it very often. And again. And again. And again. What a waste of time and energy. On the other hand, I know that if I really have to once, I can clean it quickly".

That is the Ni > Si perspective (not just a justification for laziness ) -- I am looking at the longer-term implications of having to clean it again and again.

The same goes for a hair cut. A good way for spotting LIE men: none will be wearing (consistenly) a crew cut. To keep it short, it has to be trimmed very very often, and LIEs would hate to waste time with something that, in the longer run, is of lesser importance. So they go for haircuts that need to be kept less often.

I think this thought "overflows" into the unconscious so that a few things are not really noticed anymore, but that is the basic explanation.

[Khamelion]

So they go for haircuts that need to be kept less often.

I think a lot of types could do this.

[Expat]

I think a lot of types could do this.

Sure, but I am mentioning the specific reason why ENTjs would do it.

Of course there will be exceptions, I have typed Pim Fortuyn as ENTj and he shaved his hair (presumably very often).

[discojoe]

My method of cleaning is to not be a pussy and just do it.

"When you're pushed, killing's as easy as breathing." - John Rambo

[Kristiina]

I can relate to that. And lol @ your car being messy. Books and maps everywhere. If your car had some nice desk drawers, everything would have been ok.

I can actually maintain a daily makeup for some time, but it doesn't take long for me to start finding shortcuts. Like when I have to remove my make-up, I just wipe my eye lids with some soft paper and the next day I can use mascara only on the tips of the eyelashes and some eye makeup and it looks great! I don't like rubbing my eyes with mascara-removing chemicals every single day!... (*excuses, excuses!*).

Also, I keep thinking of the long-term result. I often walk on the town with wet messed up hair. That's because I go to the gym and I wash my hair after that. There's no point in not washing it, because I'd have to do it at home then. And I can't brush it, because brushing wet hair is extremely dangerous for the hair. I can just feel them breaking! And they actually have a very good hair dryer there, but I rarely use it. Why? Because using the hair dryer 3 times per week is both time-consuming and awful to the hair! Once or twice per month would be ok, which is why I do use it if I'm going somewhere after gym. But if I just have to stop by a shop and then go home, then what's the point? Any person would say, "Fuck it! I'm not letting anyone see me with wet messy hair!". I just keep telling myself that no one cares if a stranger with a gym bag has wet hair, but I care if I mess up my pretty hair for no good reason!

I've had lots of trouble with my skin. I'll forget to take care of it, then I panic and take extra good care, which destroys the natural balance and my skin gets worse! It was a nasty cycle of bad skin. I The problem is that when I do something, I do it too much! All or nothing. Like when I bought a natural oil that helped, and I started using it 4 times per day!!! Then the skin was too oily and things got worse. think I have it all under control now. I'm using skincare tips that I heard from a really sweet ISFj.

[KSpin]

I let my hair grow quite long, down to around my nose, and then get it cut really short. This is so that I don't have to remember to get it cut too often. Only about 5 times a year at most.

[Expat]

I just keep telling myself that no one cares if a stranger with a gym bag has wet hair, but I care if I mess up my pretty hair for no good reason!

Sure.

[aestrivex]

this is interesting; i haven't cut my hair in at least five years for a similar sort of reason. previously, my parents forced me to cut my hair every so often, which i perceived as pointless and a waste of time. i simply let it grow, and never stopped doing so, although i take absolutely atrocious care of it at present.

[discojoe]

this is interesting; i haven't cut my hair in at least five years for a similar sort of reason. previously, my parents forced me to cut my hair every so often, which i perceived as pointless and a waste of time. i simply let it grow, and never stopped doing so, although i take absolutely atrocious care of it at present.

Disgusting.

[aestrivex]

this is interesting; i haven't cut my hair in at least five years for a similar sort of reason. previously, my parents forced me to cut my hair every so often, which i perceived as pointless and a waste of time. i simply let it grow, and never stopped doing so, although i take absolutely atrocious care of it at present.

Disgusting.

i knew you would say something like that.

[discojoe]

this is interesting; i haven't cut my hair in at least five years for a similar sort of reason. previously, my parents forced me to cut my hair every so often, which i perceived as pointless and a waste of time. i simply let it grow, and never stopped doing so, although i take absolutely atrocious care of it at present.

Disgusting.

i knew you would say something like that.

Someone get this guy an ESFj. Frikkin nasty.

[UDP]

And I can't brush it, because brushing wet hair is extremely dangerous for the hair. I can just feel them breaking!

It is that bad?

[KSpin]

btw Kri - it is safe to comb wet hair.

As long as it's only on Wednesdays and you use your left-hand.

[implied]

you polr people often make me think i have a polr. i do just about the same thing regarding my car and such things - and i get really surprised (sometimes slightly impressed) when i meet people who keep their surroundings devastatingly clean.

there's a good reason i have long hair like i do -- well, one, i've heard it's attractive on me, but there's the other reason that it's easier to fool with. i used to have my hair cut in one of those wedge styles where it would need to be kept slightly short/almost shaved in the back. eventually i got so sick of spending so much damned time at the beauty shop i just let it grow out long.

i'd do about the same thing as kriistina regarding the gym, as well.

[Joy]

In part of the ENTj profile by Stratiyevskaya, she describes Si in ENTjs as follows:

He badly feels the measure for its sensations. Therefore to himit is necessary the partner, who would feel this for him, which would know his tastes, his habits; which previously troubled about what sensations ENTj experiences in following second.

About himself the ENTj cannot care, and for this very reason concern from the side of partner must be maximally farsighted. It is important so that to the ENTj would be created all conditions for valuable leisure. It does not have value, it was occupied today by work or the whole day nothing made, but even if he recently awoke and immediately he went to watch TV, one ought not to grumble: it means, for it is now necessary "recharging" by some new impressions and by new information. Furthermore, precisely, in the period of the "forced hibernation" the ENTj experiences the strong uneasiness and stress.
When in his normal, "business regime", he generally very rarely makes possible for himself to rest and to be relaxed. Therefore, if ENTj is already prepared to leisure, it is not necessary to strain him: this greatly irritates him. It is not possible to move him from the place to the place, when he already rests (?), it is not possible to distract him at this moment by conversations or to call to the telephone. (although at the work site he can eat and work simultaneously.)

Stratiyevskaya's descriptions tend to be rather long because they are descriptions of her observations and consist of a lot of raw data as a result. I believe I have an explanation for some of what's written there, but I'm not sure if including it in a further translation would be taking too many liberties. Here is my "further translation" with a theory about why ENTjs behave the way she describes.

They are not good at measuring and judging sensations. This is why it is helpful for them to have a partner who knows their tastes and habits better than they do, and who will remember which things have caused them discomfort in the past. Their ideal partner will also be farsighted enough to help them prevent burn out. They're not good at taking time out of their schedule for rest and leisure. They generally don't take the time to rest until they have to because they've worn themselves out. During these periods of down time, they usually watch TV or spend time online. Even then, they may be resting, but they are not relaxing. During these periods of "forced hibernation" they feel a strong sense of uneasiness and stress. They tend to spend their down time watching TV, online, or playing games because if they don't have something to keep their mind occupied, they are overcome by restlessness and are unable to remain still. Because it is important for them to receive the proper amount and type of stimulation while they are recharging, they may avoid doing things which require more mental effort than they desire to expend.

It's important to understand that they dislike taking time away from accomplishing things, so if they're at the point where they are willing to actually take time out and rest, it's because they have to, and it's not a good idea to pressure them to do things or to be more active. When they're resting, it greatly irritates them if they're asked to run errands or do chores. It may also be difficult to get or hold their attention because being engaged in conversation can disrupt their ability to maintain a favorable level of mental stimulation. They're likely to put off making phone calls and even stop answering the phone to avoid conversations which they feel would be mentally exhausting.

[Gilly]

You have ADD.

[discojoe]

You have ADD.

Well, that won't do you much good; I've always claimed that I think Strat's descriptions are crap. And from what I've seen of you so far, I can't possibly trust your typing skills.

[Eye of the Potato]

I have a friend who I believe is ENTj. She fits the profile perfectly except for where it says she doesn't give enough attention to her appearance.


ENTj [+] and [-]

If your type is Logical-Intuitive Extratim - ENTj (The Pioneer):

Your strongest virtue is excellent enterprise where new business ventures and projects are involved. You have a very business-like mind and know well how to adapt any theory or idea for practical use. You do not have time for unimportant and trivial matters; instead you are always attracted to valuable and worthwhile aims and projects. You could be called a person of action as you do not let your plans and goals go unrealised. You quickly and easily take onboard new business proposals trying always to bring it to a satisfactory conclusion. You are an optimistic person and believe strongly in the success of every project you undertake. It is important for you to gain experience from many different fields of activity. Elements of risk do not discourage you that easily.

You can be tactless when talking about intimate subjects and insensitive to others feelings. Your humour often has double meaning. When you are in action you can be rude and show bad manners. You like excessive attention. Organising everyday matters can cause you considerable difficulty. You often have no time for rest. Although you always try to maintain a healthy style of life, you don't take as much care of yourself as you should. You often do not show enough attention to your appearance and ignore advice on this subject. You are not so sure about your aesthetic understanding either.





She pays very close attention to her appearance, always has her nails done perfectly, obsesses about her hair and takes pride in her ability to co-ordinate her clothes.

She has worked in various management roles and this type of work suits her very well. She is quite organised in running her house. She is not the best at considering other peoples feelings although she can be blind to this aspect of herself at times.


I sat next to her in school and she was often 2 steps ahead of our teachers, especially in maths class, often correcting the teachers mistakes.

I see her as an extrovert, she never had a problem speaking in front of a group of people, in fact she was quite notorious around school for having a big mouth. The teachers secretly admired her for being cheeky.

I showed her the documentary "The Zeitgeist Movie" and she was able to put holes in their arguments immediately. She can be very matter of fact. I see this as very ENTj.

We can talk for hours on any given subject, we can go quite deep with things, so I don't really see her as a sensor. She can also be very funny and her wit often has double meanings.

I'm wondering if I may have typed her wrong, but I can't see her fitting any other type.

I'd appreciate your help here, this is puzzling me. I feel like I'm missing something.

[mfckr]

I have a friend who I believe is ENTj. She fits the profile perfectly except for where it says she doesn't give enough attention to her appearance.

shrug, what can I say, except that most of the PoLR descriptions are stupid and terribly off. I've yet to encounter a single ENXj who looked like an unkempt slob.

I don't obsess over my appearance, but I do pay attention to it, since I recognize its importance in life. People judge a lot by it.

I tend to dislike the way people dress.

I showed her the documentary "The Zeitgeist Movie" and she was able to put holes in their arguments immediately. She can be very matter of fact. I see this as very ENTj.

[jughead]

How do they dress Ashton? Do they seem overly done, overly sensual or something? Whats the vibe?

[DirectorAbbie]

I tend to dislike the way people dress.

Yeah? Well, I dislike the way you Si-PoLRs eat. You don't see tastes, textures, and smells. You see a lump of vitamins, minerals, and calories. Then you eat the tofu!

[mfckr]

How do they dress Ashton? Do they seem overly done, overly sensual or something? Whats the vibe?

Overly done, usually. Caking themselves in too much makeup and heavy perfumes that make you fucking gag, etc. I'm thinking mostly ESEs here.

Generally, I think -val aesthetics are directed more towards personal comfort (how will this feel for me) while -val aesthetics are directed more towards impact (what sort of impression will this make).

[NewBorn STAR]

The ability to be a fat pig loving the smell of theyr own shit

[mfckr]

I tend to dislike the way people dress.

Yeah? Well, I dislike the way you Si-PoLRs eat. You don't see tastes, textures, and smells. You see a lump of vitamins, minerals, and calories. Then you eat the tofu!

I dunno anyone who eats tofu. Sounds disgusting and horribly artificial. Plus I'd be paranoid about the phytoestrogens in it.

I mostly just eat meat, raw fruits and vegetables. I don't like a lot of preparation or processing done to my food.

The ability to be a fat pig loving the smell of theyr own shit

Best description of ever.

[Ave]

I tend to dislike the way people dress.

Yeah? Well, I dislike the way you Si-PoLRs eat. You don't see tastes, textures, and smells. You see a lump of vitamins, minerals, and calories. Then you eat the tofu!

I think thats aiming a bit high for polr; I just see what food looks like, then what it tastes like. That is all.

[Eye of the Potato]

I have a friend who I believe is ENTj. She fits the profile perfectly except for where it says she doesn't give enough attention to her appearance.

shrug, what can I say, except that most of the PoLR descriptions are stupid and terribly off. I've yet to encounter a single ENXj who looked like an unkempt slob.

I don't obsess over my appearance, but I do pay attention to it, since I recognize its importance in life. People judge a lot by it.

I tend to dislike the way people dress.

I showed her the documentary "The Zeitgeist Movie" and she was able to put holes in their arguments immediately. She can be very matter of fact. I see this as very ENTj.

Thanks. That was helpful. So what does it mean to be Si deficient then?

[mfckr]

So what does it mean to be Si deficient then?

It has something to do with not enjoying music like this: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...432#post781432

No, really. -valuers live in a demented alternate universe of aesthetics where stuff like that is actually enjoyable and 'relaxation' is considered a desirable luxury.

[moredhel]

Good advise never trust somebodies description of their own PoLR function. They'll just tell you how little they need it and how useless it is

You can be tactless when talking about intimate subjects and insensitive to others feelings. Your humour often has double meaning. When you are in action you can be rude and show bad manners. You like excessive attention. Organising everyday matters can cause you considerable difficulty. You often have no time for rest. Although you always try to maintain a healthy style of life, you don't take as much care of yourself as you should.

^ That's the worst of what it means to be Si polr though there may be better descriptions out there, the appearance stuff is all relative plus there are magazines, shop assistants and friends for all that it's not like everybody is out designing their outfits from scratch.
Also Si and Se will approach their appearance in different ways and for different reasons, Si doesn't have a monopoly on consumerism and looking good .

[woofwoofl]

Yeah? Well, I dislike the way you Si-PoLRs eat. You don't see tastes, textures, and smells. You see a lump of vitamins, minerals, and calories. Then you eat the tofu!

Yep, pretty much (sounds more Gamma than Beta to me too)

I cooked a perfectly healthy batch of cookies for a Fe-SEI and she kept going on about how it "wasn't a cookie" and called them sponges. I'm not gonna drown the things in sugar, and the black bean puree I used in there had loads of protein in it, the Te-LIE I know knows what's up

Flavors, smells, etc., all of those are auxiliary concerns for me; food fuels me on first and foremost, and if making something taste good is a way to effectively get people to eat better, then I'll try to pay attention to it; if I'm just cooking for me, then I'm fine with eating raw oats... sometimes, I'll pound an inch-high mountain of cayenne pepper on my food to get me going if I'm running low on mojo, this really fires up the mornings...

Clothes too; I make sure I have a sense of presence, and I make sure my clothes are sturdy and functional for what I need them to be. These pants have done me incredibly well as far as durability is concerned; if I go flying off my bike, my pants should be fine and I won't have to buy new pants...

I'm still blown away that an EII thought that a fuzzy sweater was something I'd ever want to wear

The ability to be a fat pig loving the smell of theyr own shit

the " = moobs" line of thinking lives!

I would be furious if I got fat; it almost happened, and I've got ab workouts to do now so I can win the war... may my six-pack never expand into a keg...

[moredhel]

I'm still blown away that an EII thought that a fuzzy sweater was something I'd ever want to wear

Lol I love it when stereotypes exist for a reason.

[mfckr]

Good advise never trust somebodies description of their own PoLR function. They'll just tell you how little they need it and how useless it is

Relative to type though, PoLR is useless. For me, will never have any real relevance to my life—and that's okay. Just like I'd never expect to have any relevance for you. People get along fine in life capitalizing on their strengths (IMO PoLRs are more about differences of perspective, not inherent weaknesses per se—though they can become such depending on the context of quadras/types present…).

You can be tactless when talking about intimate subjects and insensitive to others feelings. Your humour often has double meaning. When you are in action you can be rude and show bad manners. You like excessive attention. Organising everyday matters can cause you considerable difficulty. You often have no time for rest. Although you always try to maintain a healthy style of life, you don't take as much care of yourself as you should.

Lol, that's not bad actually. Except I'd tend to disagree on having much bearing on pursuit of health (or at least, having very different ideas on what 'health' constitutes)—only because I see way too many morbidly unhealthy types who prefer to eat, drink, and smoke themselves into oblivion for sake of sensory comfort, even when they know it's self-destructive.

the appearance stuff is all relative plus there are magazines, shop assistants and friends for all that it's not like everybody is out designing their outfits from scratch.

Yep.

Also Si and Se will approach their appearance in different ways and for different reasons, Si doesn't have a monopoly on consumerism and looking good .

[Reuben]

To an Si-valuer, comfort, relaxation, and pleasurable sensations are an ends in itself. To a non-Si-Valuer, those things are a means to an end. It helps to maintain your body and health to achieve greater results. While Si-types may comfortably indulge in it, Ni-types tend to see it as over-indulgence, just like how Si-types will see daydreaming and imagination as over-indulgence instead of a place of comfort.

ENTj's will try to use Si when necessary to maintain their image/health but they will feel very uncomfortable when it becomes the focus of attention, or the predominant activity. This is much like how I feel when everyone in the group is just out there to do crazy stuff, make lots of noise, and mess around in a loud and highly charged manner. I don't mind it, sometimes I do, but I am not inclined to contribute. Fe-Polr here. I develop my Fe enough to use it when necessary though, but I always don't know how it's being received, although I intuitively feel that I tend to make more mistakes than ethical types.

[Ave]

To an Si-valuer, comfort, relaxation, and pleasurable sensations are an ends in itself. To a non-Si-Valuer, those things are a means to an end. It helps to maintain your body and health to achieve greater results. While Si-types may comfortably indulge in it, Ni-types tend to see it as over-indulgence, just like how Si-types will see daydreaming and imagination as over-indulgence instead of a place of comfort.

I agree here.

[Eye of the Potato]

Thanks everyone for all the replies. I feel like I have a better grasp of it now.

Any time my ENTj friend has cooked for me, she would comment on how good it tasted but I thought it was pretty bland to be honest. I didn't say so though. It would be a bit ungrateful after she went to the bother of feeding me.

[Exodus]

There's not much to go on but I might consider SLE as well. Even female LIEs usually aren't fastidious about their appearance.

[Adam Strange]

I admire Si users, but I can’t do Si myself.

After years of pouring instant coffee into a paper cup and adding cold tap water to it and stirring it with my finger until most of the lumps dissolve and then gulping it down for the caffeine, I decided to up my game.

I bought a French press (so no disposable filters) and a fancy ceramic burr (I’m a fan of ceramic tools) grinder and some imported beans and made myself a cup of coffee like those who have actual taste do.

I can’t tell the difference from instant coffee, except it takes longer to prepare.

I should just give up trying.

[Bertrand]

its all in the beans, try different kinds, do taste test comparisons and so forth. i love buying like 5 different types of chocolate or coffee or whatever else and sitting down and trying and comparing each in close proximity in time so I don't lose track of the differences. personally I love dunkin donuts coffee beans even though it sounds so pedestrian they're really good for a major brand. there are of course other better kinds but its a good starting point. starbucks burns their coffee, it sucks

[Exodus]

To an Si-valuer, comfort, relaxation, and pleasurable sensations are an ends in itself. To a non-Si-Valuer, those things are a means to an end. It helps to maintain your body and health to achieve greater results. While Si-types may comfortably indulge in it, Ni-types tend to see it as over-indulgence, just like how Si-types will see daydreaming and imagination as over-indulgence instead of a place of comfort.

ENTj's will try to use Si when necessary to maintain their image/health but they will feel very uncomfortable when it becomes the focus of attention, or the predominant activity. This is much like how I feel when everyone in the group is just out there to do crazy stuff, make lots of noise, and mess around in a loud and highly charged manner. I don't mind it, sometimes I do, but I am not inclined to contribute. Fe-Polr here. I develop my Fe enough to use it when necessary though, but I always don't know how it's being received, although I intuitively feel that I tend to make more mistakes than ethical types.

This essentially - although it's a bit more complicated than just valuing Si vs. not valuing it.

The OP sounds sort of like a rationalization but it does demonstrate the different amount of psychic resources (attention and reward) that are devoted to different IM elements.
At some level we are aware of not maintaining our vulnerable function, but we don't consciously think about it as much as other functions, and we certainly don't care about it as much as other people do.

[Adam Strange]

I was born with a big mouth and very crooked teeth. My top front teeth had a gap between them so large that I could do projectile spitting through it. My wisdom teeth came in easily and said, "Man, lots of room in here." When I was growing up, I wouldn't so much take a bite of something as I'd just rip and shred it apart, probably like T. Rex did to its prey. Imagine a mouth full of bent nails instead of teeth, and that was me.

After my wisdom teeth came in, the dentist told my mother that I needed braces. She wasn't interested in spending any money on that. Still, he persisted. Dentists have mouths to feed, too. He told my mother that my teeth were so crooked that whenever I swallowed, which was like 10,000 times a day, my teeth bumped into each other and that would eventually kill them all. (I've since wondered about the facts of that statement, but I've never looked them up. He was the expert, right?)

So she relented and I got braces my senior year in high school. The dentist had it all planned out. First, he inserted rubber bands between the teeth to separate them, then he removed a perfectly healthy tooth in front that was "in the way", and then the braces. The money was stacking up, for sure.

Those rubber bands were on my teeth for a few days, and they hurt like nothing I'd ever experienced before. And the front tooth was removed under anesthetic, but he used a pair of pliers to work it back and forth in my jaw until he could pull it out, and that, I could feel. Still, it all had to be done, right?

IIRC, after the braces came off, I still had to wear a retainer for some months. But in the end, it turned out OK. I now have a set of teeth that is like a pair of scissors on a sandwich. Every time I take a bite of something, it still seems strange to this day to leave a clean cutting line in the food.

Thanks, Doc.

[Quez]

I was born with a big mouth and very crooked teeth. My top front teeth had a gap between them so large that ...

SLE, according to Filatova.

>Thread: Si in LIE


/squinty eyes