Joy's E-Type - maybe enneagram isn't total bullshit?

[UDP]

Self-pres/Sexual

This type is more fiery than the self-pres/social. They still have many of the same concerns of the first type, but there is this secondary energy that wants to throw all their repression out the window. This energy is mainly contained, but it's there just under the surface. The focus of their perfectionism is on their loved ones. On the down side, they can be very critical of the people close to them. Although normally controlled, this type is likely to erupt from time to time with those close to them. It’s an explosion of built up repression that has to be released.

On the high side, this type can relax a little more than the self-pres/social, but on the down side, they are more volatile. They do share the inner conflict between their sexual and self-pres instincts with the sexual/self-pres, but the self-pres energy usually wins out. The instinctual energy of the sexual instinct is more apparent than with the self-pres/social. Despite being critical of their mates, they are usually very committed to their relationships. In the mind of the self-pres/sexual One, the judgmental criticality is a sign of commitment and love.

http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=81:80

LSI, Se subtype --- or at least, I know one that is

[UDP]

Social/Self-pres

When the social instinct is dominant in enneatype One, the fear of not being perfect manifests with regards to their connection to others. The social instinct is satisfied when others follow their rules or hold up their standards of justice.

This type is very community minded. They are likely to be the person on the block who offers a hand, tells you, for instance, how to maintain your lawn just right. When healthy, they do this in a truly helpful way. These individuals can be counted on to do the right thing. They convey to others that they can be trusted and have everyone’s best interest in mind. This type is likely to have an interest in politics and social concerns.

They are similar to the self-pres/social in the respect that both types will be community minded, but the self-pres/social will focus more on self and this type will extend its focus to the group. On the down side, they can be judgmental and intrusive when their input is not called for. Frustration for the social/self-pres One comes when others aren’t maintaining the same ideals and standards the One holds. This frustration in the social arena combines with the self-pres concerns, and can generate the impetus for action we so often see with this type.

I would never tell someone how to maintain their lawn, but I would offer assistance, and be more assertive if it was getting out of control. But still...

Social/Self-pres

One might think that the energy of this subtype would be warmer and friendlier than that of the self-pres/social, but it doesn’t usually present that way. Because the social instinct is dominant, these Fives are much more aware of their role in the group. They are therefore more careful of their involvements with others. The social arena is more important and is invested with more energy, so these Fives will pull up faster and harder into self-pres mode if they should feel at all threatened. This will sometimes give others the impression of coldness. This subtype will center a lot of their intellectual interest around the workings of society, humanity or spirituality. This serves as their connection with people. By means of these abstract mental constructs, Fives of this subtype feel a sense of belonging socially, without having to be personally involved and invested. The healthier people of this subtype are, the more they are able to integrate their mental constructs with their actual experiences. They can really be content to adopt the role of “people watcher,” but they do it from a closer and closer perspective. Their blind spot revolves around the fact that they tend to convince themselves they can get along just fine in the observer role. It does feel safer to them. If they do have a few people relatively close to them, they can really strike a good balance between their need to withdraw and their need to connect to the larger social world.

This subtype could be seen as the most intellectual of type Five. The combination of the basic desire for knowing with the social instinct’s need to "fit in," makes people of this subtype want to find a niche as the expert. Their interest in structure, especially social structure, accentuates their natural inclination for acquiring knowledge. With the sexual instinct least developed, this subtype is in the position of having a strong pull towards understanding the workings of the world around them, without the emotional intensity of the sexual instinct setting up any distraction. These Fives fit the role of the scientist or professor quite well in this respect.

It comes down to my more recent (in terms of my life) fascination with leadership and decision making, process and direction. In my youth I suffered no anger, I was not achievement orientated, I was definitely a 5. I would say 5w4 is most likely. However, if I am to associate myself with the enneagram, there is either one of two things going on: in my youth, my 1-ness was latent, and undeveloped; or, now that I am older, my 5-ness is calling more for 8's assertiveness.

[Ezra]

I have an ISTJ (MBTI), INTj (socionics) friend who recently toyed with the 1 and the 5. He shows 1 traits, but he is almost certainly a 5(w6). He said that while he'd like to have the 'higher cause' issue that the 1 has, he doesn't really have it, and only occasionally thinks about giving himself up for one. In fact, he told me he'd like to be a 1, but he identifies more with the 5.

1s tend to be more assertive and outwardly dominating, while 5s are characteristically withdrawn - while extroverted 1s are very common, you will almost never find an extroverted 5. 5s can also be just as disciplined as 1s, but 1s are generally better at it (5s can often be quite avaricious). 1s are do-gooders - you will never find an unethical 1; they are concerned with rights, morals, principles and objective laws. 5s can be ethical, but they can also be unethical in their methods (like many 8s). Most of the time though, they don't occupy positions of power like 8s (or 1s might) do (relating back to their characteristic introverted nature), so they needn't worry about the ethics of their methods. Sexual (subtype) 1s can often look needy (like 6s - especially 6w7s), whereas 5s tend to be more self-contained, and aim to reduce their needs and relationships. This is typical of said 5w6 friend who doesn't believe in love and who doesn't believe he'll ever end up in a lasting relationship (he's sp/so subtype).

[ScarlettLux]

You know, this entire ocean moonshine whatever site it's called has really opened my eyes up to the Enneagram! I actually believe that it makes sense! Before, I would disregard Enneagram as being very simplistic and not nearly anything like Socionics.. now I see that they can be put together for more accuracy and explanation. The stackings are incredibly detailed and describe me perfectly.. the 3w4/4w3 Sx/So/Sp ones I mean. I just can't decide which one is better.

All I know is that I have a lot of Sx energy. Lol.

BTW: That desc. up there of Sp/So and UDP claiming he knows an LSI Se exactly like that - me too! My close friend.. definitely. It's kind of annoying, how she represses so much .. I want to help her LET GO.. but she can't.

[Ezra]

Good theory isn't it. As much as critics of it decide to slap a "esoteric" and "illogical" description on it, it's actually very useful in understanding the basics of the ways in which people are motivated. Also, the theory of wings (e.g. 7w6, 5w4, 1w2) and of subtypes (sexual, social, self-preservationist) explains the diversity between people of the same type.

[astralsilky]

IMO

Enneagram might help one view personality through yet another lens, while inserting some general psychology into the mix, but the model itself hardly seems to bear any fundamental sort of truth value, despite its highly spiritualized claims.

So while it may be total bullshit, some bullshit can still be useful. Sorta like -- finding someone else's unwanted artifacts at a garage sale; and from them, creating a nevertheless worthy piece of art.

[UDP]

1w9 sounds good.

Someone explained in a pm or thread how 1 to 7has to do with looking for new experiences, etc, or something like that, and it fits pretty well.

[Gilly]

That would be me. 1 -> 7 is, IMO, about seeking experience in the sense of broadening one's horizons in order to get a better perspective on how the world can be changed for the better. However, I think growth patterns and motivations tend to be pretty open to interpretation.

[Jarno]

enneagram is near bullshit.

[Logos]

enneagram is near bullshit.

I agree.

[Phaedrus]

enneagram is near bullshit.

I agree.

The theory is bullshit, but it is very useful as a complementary collection of insights on the types. MBTI test results and statistical findings can (and should) be used in a similarly. In that way you will learn more about the types than if you only use socionic sources of information.

[Logos]

enneagram is near bullshit.

I agree.

The theory is bullshit, but it is very useful as a complementary collection of insights on the types. MBTI test results and statistical findings can (and should) be used in a similarly. In that way you will learn more about the types than if you only use socionic sources of information.

I suppose that is true to an extent, but the inter-system problems occur in translation, and it often adds unneeded complexities in the attempt to synthesize the systems. And when you try and synthesize a "bullshit theory," the problem becomes even more apparent. See Enneagram type 5 and INTx types for your proof of this in action.

[Jarno]

Good theory isn't it. As much as critics of it decide to slap a "esoteric" and "illogical" description on it, it's actually very useful in understanding the basics of the ways in which people are motivated. Also, the theory of wings (e.g. 7w6, 5w4, 1w2) and of subtypes (sexual, social, self-preservationist) explains the diversity between people of the same type.

You get motivated because of the way you are stimulated. Stimulation takes place through functions which process reality into you ego.

Enneagram doesn't tell you that.

[BLauritson]

You get sexually aroused when stimulated in the right way. The appropriate form of stimulation varies per person. Enneagramme doesn't tell you that either.

Wait, neither does Socionics. Funny that.

[Joy]

I thought enneagram was bullshit until I understood it better. Now I'm leaning more towards "not bullshit" than "bullshit".

[UDP]

Type 8 somewhat fits me, Joy, but "not being controlled" is not my main motivation. 1w9 seems best fit still.

[Joy]

Which stack are you?

Do you relate to this?

True intimacy however does not come easily or naturally to Eights. Soft and tender emotions tend to make Eights feel "weak," and, more to the point, intimacy requires Eights to lower their defenses and thereby become vulnerable. Vulnerability, in turn, triggers the Eight's fear of being controlled. Thus, intimate relations are often the arena in which the Eight's control issues are most obviously played out. Questions of trust assume a pivotal position. Eights tend to test their intimates to see if they are worthy, to see if they can be trusted not to betray the Eight's confidence. Betrayal is absolutely intolerable to Eights and any hint of it can provoke a powerful retaliatory response. Eights are looking, ideally, both for someone they can respect and someone they can protect, a paradoxical combination to be sure, but, while the Eight's loneliness can only be assuaged by finding an equal, the Eight's feelings of vulnerability can best be assuaged if they know that their intimates depend on them. While Eights do not trust easily, if they do admit someone into the inner sanctum, they generally prove to be stalwart friends and steadfast allies.

Or this?

They typically adopt a survival strategy that involves either a rise to the top of the existing hierarchy, or an "opting out" altogether of the current system and its structures of power. Eights of the former sort are typically found in positions of leadership, whether it be of their own family, company or political party. Eights of the latter sort tend to be independent contractors, free-lancers of all sorts, and even outlaws - those who, in other words, exist outside of the accepted framework of civil society and its often artificial system of rules and obligations. Eights of both basic tendencies need to feel financially independent, and while most Eights do manage to find some means of making peace with their society, they always retain an uneasy association with any hierarchical relationship which does not position the Eight at the top.

[UDP]

Which stack are you?

Do you relate to this?

True intimacy however does not come easily or naturally to Eights. Soft and tender emotions tend to make Eights feel "weak," and, more to the point, intimacy requires Eights to lower their defenses and thereby become vulnerable. Vulnerability, in turn, triggers the Eight's fear of being controlled. Thus, intimate relations are often the arena in which the Eight's control issues are most obviously played out. Questions of trust assume a pivotal position. Eights tend to test their intimates to see if they are worthy, to see if they can be trusted not to betray the Eight's confidence. Betrayal is absolutely intolerable to Eights and any hint of it can provoke a powerful retaliatory response. Eights are looking, ideally, both for someone they can respect and someone they can protect, a paradoxical combination to be sure, but, while the Eight's loneliness can only be assuaged by finding an equal, the Eight's feelings of vulnerability can best be assuaged if they know that their intimates depend on them. While Eights do not trust easily, if they do admit someone into the inner sanctum, they generally prove to be stalwart friends and steadfast allies.

Or this?

They typically adopt a survival strategy that involves either a rise to the top of the existing hierarchy, or an "opting out" altogether of the current system and its structures of power. Eights of the former sort are typically found in positions of leadership, whether it be of their own family, company or political party. Eights of the latter sort tend to be independent contractors, free-lancers of all sorts, and even outlaws - those who, in other words, exist outside of the accepted framework of civil society and its often artificial system of rules and obligations. Eights of both basic tendencies need to feel financially independent, and while most Eights do manage to find some means of making peace with their society, they always retain an uneasy association with any hierarchical relationship which does not position the Eight at the top.

I relate to a little of both of them... but the first seems to be more talking about relationships.

[UDP]

Self-pres/Social

Self-pres/soc Eights are very self reliant. They are frequently entrepreneurial; the self-preservational instinct combines with the social to make a subtype that is very focused on the external environment. Self-pres/social Eights are the least dramatic of type Eight. They are "no nonsense" types. They can be introverted, especially when the Nine wing is dominant. But, even though they are often quiet, they are very much in control of themselves and their direction in life. On the high side, they make great business owners. They show a sense of fairness and have an instinctual drive to do what needs to be done. They know how to make decisions and aren’t afraid to implement them. Because the sexual instinct is last, they can sometimes be seen as difficult to warm up to. They can be seen as "all business."

This type has a tendency to see relationships as somehow "getting in the way." While they may desire a close romantic relationship, they don't want it if it is at the expense of their self-pres needs. They can appear Five-like in this way, as they are concerned about the demands a relationship might make on their time.

Social/Self-pres

This subtype generally has a larger sphere of influence, although they might still be very entrepreneurial. They are likely to be more socially minded then the other subtypes of Eight. They are more aware of group dynamics. The social instinct, when combined with the type Eight fixation, causes an exagerrated awareness of whoever is in control. This often leads these Eights to get involved in politics, or to rise to levels of leadership within their place of business, or within their social organizations. They are also just as likely to oppose the group or the person in charge of it. The self-pres instinct combines with the social to give this subtype a "can do" approach to life, similar to that of the self-pres/soc. The difference is that their scope of interests extends further into the social arena. The soc/self-pres Eight, when unhealthy, can use their awareness of power realtions to abuse whatever power they might have.

I am always aware of who has power in any situation. And whenever I do something truly, I and up being a major part of the influence. I remember reading some test result a long time ago - the test itself was not important, but I like what it said: something like "do not allow yourself to be in lower organizational positions - you have to be either fully involved or not at all. Folding chairs and setting up tables is not for you, you must be a part of the decision making, organizing the whole event, and involved (in that sort of way)". That is very true for me.

[UDP]

http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/chwings.htm

One With a 9 Wing
Ones with this wing can have an aura of 9-like calm although eruptions of temper are possible. Often have a detached quality and can be mistaken for Fives. Tendency to formulate and embrace principles that have little human content, but this is also their strength. When awakened, may be objective and balanced, cool and moderate in their evaluations. More entranced, might have perfectionistic expectations that are not humanly possible to meet. May hold social or political opinions that are supremely logical but ultimately heartless and draconian. The rules come first no matter what. Can be merciless or unwittingly cruel. Often a little colorless in their personal appearance. Many Ones with this wing are plain dressers, preferring functional clothing that is appropriate to context but not flashy. The emphasis on function may extend to their general lifestyle. Practicality is highly valued.

Eight With a 9 Wing
Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive. When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

I like both.

[FDG]

I thought enneagram was bullshit until I understood it better.

I hope the opposite will happen when you start understaind your own posts

[Joy]

I thought enneagram was bullshit until I understood it better.

I hope the opposite will happen when you start understaind your own posts

I don't understand my posts... but you do?

UDP, what about the 1 stacks?

[Gilly]

I thought enneagram was bullshit until I understood it better.

I hope the opposite will happen when you start understaind your own posts

[UDP]

@Joy:

Self-pres/Social

Enneatype One's basic fear is of not being perfect, therefore, not being good enough. This manifests in the self-pres variant as the need to "fix" the environment.

This type is the most steady, organized, and practical. They prioritize time well, pride themselves on, for instance, finding the bargain, buying quality, putting forth their best effort. Perfection comes from dotting all the i's. They tend to watch their health and to not overindulge. When healthy, their example of efficiency is inspiring. The pride they take in their work is commendable.

On the down side, they can become obsessive-compulsive. They can lose the forest for the trees in attempting to make their homes and environments perfect. They can also be very hard on themselves. The energy of this type is the most consistent. When their ideal falls short, frustration usually turns inward. Anger is repressed, especially with the Nine wing.

It is difficult for me to determine whether I put more of my anger "inwards" towards me, or "outwards" towards other people, which seems to be a key difference between 8 and 1

[Joy]

Hmmmm... I repress a lot of anger. But anger is still the emotion I'm most comfortable with. I've come to see outward expressions of anger as a vulnerability (what says weakness more than being unable control your emotions, especially to the extent of being willing to make a scene?), so I don't show it when I'm angry most of the time. I just get really quiet and my tone gets very flat and strained. Or I become very depressed and detached.

Peter's been getting to me to stop doing that though, slowly but surely... so now I sometimes act like like I did when I was a teenager, yelling and throwing stuff across the room and whatnot.

[UDP]

Hmmmm... I repress a lot of anger. But anger is still the emotion I'm most comfortable with. I've come to see outward expressions of anger as a vulnerability (what says weakness more than being unable control your emotions, especially to the extent of being willing to make a scene?), so I don't show it when I'm angry most of the time. I just get really quiet and my tone gets very flat and strained. Or I become very depressed and detached.

Peter's been getting to me to stop doing that though, slowly but surely... so now I sometimes act like like I did when I was a teenager, yelling and throwing stuff across the room and whatnot.

I can relate to that.

What I like most about type 1 is the focus on improvement and progress. That is an essential part of me. 1 to 7, possibly
8 to 2 could also be a possibility, because I have come to realize that just focusing on my own immediate well being is no longer fulfilling. That is why I want to work with people more and more. And what they said about 8s in terms of not doing well in low positions also applies to me. Even when I am not in high "position" rank wise, I am always talking with those who are.

[BLauritson]

You get sexually aroused when stimulated in the right way. The appropriate form of stimulation varies per person. Enneagramme doesn't tell you that either.

Wait, neither does Socionics. Funny that.

Well, that really depends...

Heh.. "Ooh yeah, my !"

[Joy]

What I like most about type 1 is the focus on improvement and progress. That is an essential part of me.

I can't imagine an 8 sitting around in complacency. I think they're more focused on individual accomplishment/achievement though, where a 1 is more about things being "perfect", both with themselves and their surroundings.

So perhaps... 8s are concerned with continually growing and 1s with a state of perfection?

[aka-kitsune]

I'm brand new around here, (just found this site yesterday) so please forgive me for jumping into your convo. But I've been familiar with enneagram in particular (and typology in general) for many years. In fact, I've "known" the people responsible for the ocean-moonshine site for years (through online discussion boards and such). They're really a pretty insightful bunch.

Also should mention that I usually get rather fed up with the stereo-"typing" that tends to occur with any personality system (ie: "You CAN'T be a 4 because ____"). Sure, there's an intuitive feel to a lot of this guessing other people's type, but really... reading type over the INTERNET isn't any kind of final authority.

And I never was really especially impressed with the "spiritual" background claimed for the enneagram, myself...

Try this test:

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php

It's the one we've all found most accurate.

I guess I should also add my stats:
INFp--4w5 sp/sx

[UDP]

Test 1 results:

Wing 8w7 - 12
Wing 8w9 - 10.3
Wing 1w9 - 9.7
Wing 1w2 - 9.5
Wing 7w8 - 9
Wing 5w6 - 8.3
Wing 5w4 - 8
Wing 3w4 - 7.4
Wing 3w2 - 6.9
Wing 9w8 - 5.7
Wing 9w1 - 5.4
Wing 7w6 - 5

[UDP]

You are most likely a type 8 (the Challenger) with 7 wing

Self-preservation variant


Type 8 SP
Type 1 SX
Type 3 SX
Type 5 SX
Type 7 SO
Type 4 SX
Type 6 SP
Type 9 SP
Type 2 SP

I can see myself as an 8 sp-sx, but 8w9>8w7

[anndelise]

Try this test:

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php

It's the one we've all found most accurate.

a while after joy had started this thread, she had started another one which linked to the one you linked to
until this test, i could not figure out the enneagram for the life of me. none of the descriptions i ever read made sense to me, the only thing that ever made sense to me was the sx/sp thing
But I saw that the test was relatively short, so went ahead and took it, and the results actually fit me...
however, as I said here: http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...=238169#238169

The description given has been the best I've read yet from Enneagram sites. Unfortunately, everything it talks about is talking about my responses developed due to the extensive abusive situation of my childhood/teen years and thus resulting responses to similarities of that situation. In other words, it's a nurture thing, not a nature thing.

but that site is the one i'll give to people who are interested in enneagram

[Joy]

weird

Type 5 - 8.3
Type 8 - 7.3
Type 1 - 5.7
Type 6 - 3
Type 4 - 2.7

Wing 5w6 - 9.8
Wing 5w4 - 9.7
Wing 8w7 - 8.7
Wing 8w9 - 7.8
Wing 6w5 - 7.2
Wing 4w5 - 6.9
Wing 1w9 - 6.2
Wing 1w2 - 6
Wing 6w7 - 4.3
Wing 4w3 - 3.9

Were the questions about expressing emotions and trusting people related to type 5?

[Gilly]

You, a 5? o_o; Only with a super-strong 6 wing. You're sx/sp, at least; that's pretty obvious.

[Joy]

I've given 5 serious consideration (the 5 descriptions fit pretty well, actually... but only in the unhealthy ways), and after a long conversation with Ezra (who knows enneagram well) concluded that I'm definitely an 8w7 sx/sp.

[rockclimber]

Type 2 - 12.7
Type 3 - 12.3
Type 1 - 12
Type 8 - 7
Type 6 - 6.7
Type 4 - 4.7

Wing 2w3 - 18.7
Wing 3w2 - 18.4
Wing 1w2 - 18.3
Wing 2w1 - 18.1
Wing 3w4 - 15
Wing 1w9 - 14
Wing 4w3 - 11.1
Wing 8w9 - 8.7
Wing 6w5 - 7.4
Wing 8w7 - 7.3
Wing 6w7 - 7
Wing 4w5 - 5.4

[aka-kitsune]

weird

Were the questions about expressing emotions and trusting people related to type 5?

Yes. Probably related to type 5. But 5--8 is a continuum, so this kinda relates to both. Type 5 "integrates" to 8. (And accordingly "disintegrates" to 7).

[Joy]

Yeah, that's why I seriously considered 5. It seemed like at my best I'm an 8, my default is 5, and when I'm extremely stressed, I act like a bad stereotype of EP (and 7 is generally thought to be EP). In thinking it over a little better though, my default has only been 5 for the past few years. Before that, 5 wouldn't have made much sense. 8w7 sx/sp makes perfect sense when you look at my whole life. Also, the key fears/motivations of 8 define me quite well. Some people have said that the way I am strongly resistant to control (whether from roles or rules society has set, religion, my parents when I was younger, whatever) as a sign of being ESFp in Socionics, but I don't believe that such is the case. One of the 8 descriptions mentioned that 8s sometimes grew up in an environment where they had to be the strong one, and that was very much true of me and my family. My mom is a very strictly religious 6 who tends to be an extremist in whatever she does, and I'm the oldest. Everyone in my family besides me and her are INxx types, so I needed to be strong. In a way, I was the only voice of reality and reason in my family.

Anyways, if you're as knowledgeable in enneagram as it sounds, I think I can speak for a number of people here when I say that we'd really like it if someone explained the transitions to us. There's another thread in "Non-socionic Type theories" about transitions. The only answer we've had so far is that we have to pay to get information about it.

I'm very comfortable with what my enneagram type is at this point. It makes perfect sense. There are a number reasons why I've been more introverted for the past few years, but I'm working in it. Things have gotten a lot better, and they're going to continue to get better. I don't have much further to go compared to where I was a year ago and even more so two years ago. :-)

I posted this in the thread about the enneagram test (the one anndelise referenced). My first set of scores was the first time I took the test. The second was when I answered the questions from the perspective of the most natural way for me to act when I'm at my healthiest (it's interesting how the 2 and 5 switch spots ).





btw, which test was the one you were telling us to take? You linked to both of them.

[Khamelion]

I love the Enneagram.


Go back a year in time and ask me if I love the Enneagram, I'll say, "FUCK YOUUU!!"

Not really, but I hated it for several years due to the poor quality of similarminds.com and my apparent inability to utilize google.com.

[normal]

Try this test:

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/test.php

It's the one we've all found most accurate.

Yeah, here's my result:

Type 3 - 10.3
Type 9 - 10
Type 6 - 9.7
Type 2 - 9.3
Type 7 - 8.7
Type 5 - 7.3
Type 8 - 7
Type 4 - 6.7
Type 1 - 6

Wing 3w2 - 15
Wing 2w3 - 14.5
Wing 6w7 - 14
Wing 3w4 - 13.7
Wing 7w6 - 13.5
Wing 9w8 - 13.5
Wing 6w5 - 13.3
Wing 9w1 - 13
Wing 2w1 - 12.3
Wing 7w8 - 12.2
Wing 5w6 - 12.1
Wing 8w9 - 12
Wing 4w3 - 11.9
Wing 8w7 - 11.3
Wing 1w9 - 11
Wing 5w4 - 10.7
Wing 1w2 - 10.7
Wing 4w5 - 10.3

Im going to read something about Three and Wings.