I agree with you on that site, and I can see your line of reasoning. But if you see how the 6 proceeds along levels of health, I think it's more ISFj-like.Originally Posted by Gilly
I agree with you on that site, and I can see your line of reasoning. But if you see how the 6 proceeds along levels of health, I think it's more ISFj-like.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Re: maybe enneagram isn't *total* bullshit?
According to Expat's enneagram rules 3 is ExFj and 3w4 is ENFj. I do remember one ENTj who claimed to be that though.
Re: maybe enneagram isn't *total* bullshit?
Well, those are my interpretations -- my own conclusions. And I think 3 is essentially ENFj, but a Fe-ESFj can also be one.
That was pezzonovante -- he's either Ni-ENFj or Ni-ENTj, so it makes sense especially if he's more likely Ni-ENFj as I think.
Are you referring to the descriptions at enneagraminstitute.com? I like the progression descriptions, but I personally find the overall descriptions at the website I pointed at there to be more thoroughly explained.I agree with you on that site, and I can see your line of reasoning. But if you see how the 6 proceeds along levels of health, I think it's more ISFj-like.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
ugh I can't believe you're getting me to talk about this stuff as it relates to meYou always describe yourself as lazy and passive. I know we all need to get more assertive to make change in life
But you do not come off as energetic, even since you've started making changes in life and have "become" LIE
First of all, didn't you JUST say something about being able to see EP in me?
Secondly, lazy? Yes, when I'm depressed or physically unwell. ("Lazy" is something I say in disgust and disappointment to describe myself when I'm at my worst. It very much goes against who I am. When I'm not unwell, "proactive" is definitely an accurate portrayal of me.) Passive? Never.
hutspah?
This description works quite well... I'll include the sp/sx description because the sx/sp one references it:
Sexual/Self-pres
This subtype is a very charismatic. They have a very assertive energy and they demand attention. The lust of the Eight combines with the sexual instinct to make one of the most fiery of the combinations of all of the enneatypes, especially if Seven is the dominant wing. Sexual/self-pres Eights aren’t afraid to tell you what they think. The "can do" attitude that the other subtypes have is now intertwined with an outward passionate storm of energy. The sexual/self-pres Eight will be similar to the self-pres/sex Eight with respect to interests and attachment to close friends and family, but the intensity level is augmented. Since the sexual instinct is first, these Eights usually don't let an opportunity pass by to connect with those they find interesting. They can sense the power in any situation and they like to challenge people. They can enjoy making others react to them, keeping others on their toes, to find out what makes them tick. They are likely to use humor to accomplish this. When sex/self-pres Eights are unbalanced, they are very quick to anger and have a difficult time controlling their impulses.
Self-pres/Sexual
This subtype is more fiery and impulsive. They still have the "no nonsense" approach to life, along with the "can do" attitude, but they exhibit more outward energy. Because the self-preservational instinct and the sexual instinct are in conflict, the one pulling in and the other pushing forward, they often have more of an on-off quality to them. But you will know where you stand with a self-pres/sexual Eight. Although their outward energy is in contrast to their inward self-pres energy, they have a very focused attitude in the areas of life in which the two energies coincide, such as the realm of family and close friendship, those things they are really passionate about. Their control over their intimate life will be noticeable. With the social instinct last in the instinctual stacking, this subtype can be blunt and confrontational with people who aren't in their inner circle.
The self-pres/sexual Eight feels very independent. They feel as though they need no one outside of the few people they are close to. On the down side, they have a tendendcy to distrust people and tend to challenge them to see where they stand. When healthier, they realize there is sometimes a greater strength in adopting a softer approach.
Yes, and I totally agree with you -- I also knew the site you pointed, I agree it's best for descriptions, but I form my view of the types also with the progression descriptions.
Okay, having read more on it, I don't think I'm a 7.
Seven sounds sort of... pointless... in the descriptions I've read.Misidentifying Sevens and Eights
Sevens and Eights are both aggressive types (PT, 433-36) and can resemble each other in certain respects. Both are powerful personalities who are able to go after what they want in life, but what they want, and how they attempt to get it, are different.
Sevens are primarily interested in variety–they want to sample as many different experiences as possible and become practical in as much as their practicality gives them the means to pursue the experiences they want to try.
Eights, by contrast, are more interested in intensity–they care less about variety than about having intense experiences that they enjoy. Eights are also interested in power, both as a way to maintain their independence and as a way of asserting their dominance in the environment. Sevens are not particularly interested in having power, seeing the work necessary to maintain it as possibly infringing on their freedom.
Eights are an Instinctive type, and as such, make decisions from their "gut" instincts. They prefer dealing with practical matters, and although emotionally volatile at times, generally remain grounded and down to earth. Sevens are Thinking types, and can have brilliant, quick minds. At the same time, Sevens can get ahead of themselves with their plans, schemes, and interests: they can have trouble staying grounded and on track with their projects. Sevens see themselves as idealistic optimists, while Eights see themselves as hard-nosed realists. Compare Sevens Mike Myers and Goldie Hawn with Eights Danny DeVito and Roseanne Barr.
Sevens are more about experiences, eights are more about accomplishment. I'm definitely 8 > 7.
Number 2 doesn't sound very Te-dominant, but the res seems fairly consistent with Fi-seeking. Some of it particularly looks LIE, what with the need for "grounding" and certainty; the 6 is usually described as doubtful in an existential way that seems WAY more LIE than ESI, IMO. ESIs don't typically seem doubtful to me; they're usually rather confident and decisive.
Level 6 isn't ESI. Fearful of authority? Belligerent? Blaming others for their problems? This seems like weak Sensing and Ethics to me as much as anything.
Level 7 seems potentially more ESI than Te-dominant, but not entirely incompatible, IMO. Level 8 is clearly more Fi-seeking than dominant: Enneagram descriptions seem to highlight the growing insecurity of weak functions rather than dysfunctional strong functions, which 8 would have to be if it were to be describing ESIs.
The overall impression I get is that an ESI would have to be pretty insecure in order to fit the kind of relationship needy-ness described in 6s, and the insecurity seems to stem from more relationship and confidence issues than those of not possessing certain skills, understanding, knowledge, etc.
What about these levels stands out as particularly ESI to you?
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Ok, reading that makes you seem more 8 than 7, but your outward behavior is not at all consistent with typical 8s.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
YEAH OF COURSE SOMEBODY AS SUCESSFUL AS YOU LIVING ON THE EDGE OF POVERTY CANNOT BE A 7 BECAUSE WE ONLY WANT TO FUCK AS MANY GIRLS AS WE WANT. YES YES YES. CHRIST FUCK SPARE YOUR JUDGEMENT FOR THE DOOMSDAY.
GILLIGAN SORRY BUT I FEEL LIKE I KNOW THE ENNEAGRAM WELL AND YOU ARE BULLSHITTING YOUR WAY ON SOMETHING YOU KNOW JACK SHIT ABOUT SO PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT 6S WITHOUT HAVING ANY DIRECT FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE WITH THE MATTER.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
wow... it's pretty easy to offend you FDG
What the fuck makes you so sure I'm bullshitting? What makes you think I don't know any 6s? How can you be so sure you've got a better grasp on the Enneagram? Why is there sand in your vagina?
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
That's why I've never taken much of an interest in enneagram... none of the types seem accurate of me. Having learned more about the stacks though, it is starting to make more sense. Perhaps I come off somewhat 3-ish to people who don't know me well or understand me, but I definitely don't have the motivations of a 3. (Maybe this is part of the reason why some Beta NFs have had problems with me?)Ok, reading that makes you seem more 8 than 7, but your outward behavior is not at all consistent with typical 8s.
All I know is I'm a 2, I don't know how to determine which wing?
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
How do you know that you're a 2?
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/descript.asp fwiw
Looks like you already found it, but this website showed some profile descriptions I could really relate to, and, combined with other things, it allowed me to see clearly that I was a 5 rather than a 1.
http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=12:12
Check out the "stacks"
I am a Social/Self Pres. split type 5 - http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...p=205513#20551
I am not sure about 5w4 or 5w6.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Perhaps 8w9 makes more sense.
took some test lol.
that site is taking too long to open
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
.
i would be rather wary of the legitimacy of that description, based on the fact that some of the variant subtypes don't sound like type 5 at all, particularly the so/sx and sx/so.
if a lot of the material for the type five overall doesn't make sense with regards to you, then you might be guilty of jumping to conclusions based on suspect information.
Given the 9 types, it is either 1 or 5, and I can make cases for either of them. 5's detached and "understanding" approach to reality is the main difference between them and 1. No other types fit quite as well, and furthermore, 5 - to - 8 seems more likely than 1 - to - 7. I 8 seems more where I want to go than 7.
I do not worry a great deal about the enneagram as socionics describes myself in a superior way.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
hmm... perhaps you're a 6w7?took some test lol.
that site is taking too long to open
I feel like I have a bit of 8 sometimes, but it's really only around my close friends and family. With regards to my social behavior outside of that and my personal outlook, I'm more of a 6. I especially identify with portions of this one:
http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e1428...position=33:33
In particular, I relate to these:
Sixes are essentially thinking types and tend to utilize their minds in their attempt to find a solid foundation. Sixes are looking for something in which to believe or someone in whom they can place their trust. At a level which barely reaches consciousness, Sixes feel that if they can find "one sure thing," they can quiet their restlessness, and achieve some semblance of much needed "peace of mind." This desire for some solidity, combined with their general suspiciousness, gives rise to a complicated relationship to those they view as authorities. The side of the Six which is looking for something to believe in, is often very susceptible to the temptation to turn authority over to an external source, whether it be in the form of an individual or a creed. But the Six's tendency towards distrust and suspicion works against any sort of faith in authority and often even presents as anti-authoritarianism. Thus, two opposite pulls exist side by side in the personality of enneatype Six, and will assume different proportions in different individuals, frequently alternating in the same individual.Heh...the few people I open up to about my problems tend to usually tell me that I'm taking them overboard, or letting little things get to me too much. Obviously everyone goes through issues like this, but a lot of my anxiety and stress comes from the fact that I just overanalyze them and spend too much time thinking. This is a big part of why 6 works better than 8. 8s are the ultimate "keep chugging"/"just do it" types: most 8s/EJs, for instance, are type A personalities, who work harder when they're anxious or under stress of this kind; not me at all, and part of this aligns with the 6s attitude towards these fundamental questions/issues.These various strategies of coping with the core issues of type Six are obviously quite different in their presentation, but they are all manifestations of the same underlying uncertainty and it is the intensity of the energy with which the Six confronts these issues which differentiates type Six from other types who, after all, also want to find something or someone in which to place their trust, something in which to believe. The issues which confront type Six, are then, in some fundamental respect, elemental concerns which confront all human beings. It is the fate of enneatype Six to be forced to address these issues most centrally. The integrity with which this is done, is determined by the extent to which the Six overcomes fear or succumbs to it.
For sure.Many Sixes are naturally prone to doubt and self-questioning. In some Sixes, this internal dynamic is projected outwards, and Sixes are notorious for adopting the position of the "devil's advocate." Many Sixes are, thus, prone to questioning and challenging the motives and beliefs of those around them. Sometimes this strategy succeeds in forcing the Six's interlocutor to clarify his or her position or to seek common ground with the Six. Other times however, it only serves to turn the Six's interlocutor into an opponent who feels justified in responding aggressively to what they understandably perceive as an attack. Thus a pattern which is essentially defensive from the point of view of the Six, is often perceived as an assault by those on the receiving end. Sixes who adopt this approach are frequently perplexed by the amount of animosity they arouse. They are far harder on themselves, they reason, so they fail to understand why others are "over reacting." In general, Sixes tend to be very aware of the reactivity of others and considerably less so of their own. As they are being driven by their own inner uncertainty, they tend to be unaware that they are behaving in an aggressive fashion and alienating those whom they might well like to befriend.
Reading on, I can definitely see how some of this would apply for ESIs:
A lot of these outward behaviors could be attributed to mutliple functions in different blocks, but the ESI's Model A certainly offers a very feasible, readily apparent explanation for all of these traits.The doubting nature of type Six can be turned to good stead when the Six uses it to discover what is wrong or missing. Sixes rightly suspect that there is more going on in any given situation that what is presented on the surface, and they want to know what lies beneath. Sixes frequently have the capacity to detect what is hidden. They ferret out the potential danger in a situation; they intuitively seek the weakness in an argument or the flaws covered by the pleasing exterior. They often have an almost "sixth" sense in this regard. This means that Sixes are typically good trouble shooters, gifted debaters, or the stalwart players who form the defensive line. Sixes tend to feel that if they are aware of all the inherent dangers in a situation, they can arm themselves against them. Once again, this vigilance is essentially a defensive maneuver. On the down side, the tendency to look for problems can lead to unnecessary worrying, catastrophising or, in extreme cases, paranoid ideation. If this tendency to focus on what might go wrong is left unchecked, the Six will experience many needless hours of misery. In addition, others in the Six's life might well experience the Six as being unnecessarily negative.
Sixes are attuned to power relations and to underlying power dynamics. They sense who has power, who wants it, who will use it, who will misuse it, and they are often the ones who sense an imbalance or injustice where others simply see the status quo. As they easily tend to feel like victims themselves, they often identify with the underdog and can even devote themselves to the cause of redressing what they see as injuries done to those without power. These Sixes are, perhaps, union organizers, or feminists, or perhaps even those who defend the rights of the unborn, as, like all the types, Sixes can be found on all ends of the political spectrum. It is not so much that all Sixes are politically motivated, but, as Sixes do tend to be oriented to power dynamics, they often take decisive positions when it comes to social issues or causes.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
I think it regrettable that people would depend on something as arbitrary as enneagram when a careful study of any single enneagram theory would reveal constances of perception that might very well form the basis for an entire new personality theory.
Well, yeah, anyone's personality can be analyzed with regards to each of the enneagram types, but you can do the same thing with socionics types. It's about over-arching trends and constant factors in motivations and behaviors that make people more one type than the others.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
But that's what I mean. There is no standard of authority for enneagram particularly, so how can you say definitively whether one person is this type or another? There is no objective basis.
(*notes that he's drowning in absolute*)
And futher, shouldn't there exist a system of relationships between the enneagram types, as there is in socionics?
Alright, I will give you that Enneagram has no objective system/standard behind it like Socionics, but then it's not even attempting to be nearly as precise. I'm not arguing for the infallibility of enneagram, but I think it's a good system that can teach us how to deal with different types of people if used in moderation and without too much rigidity. It's not a solve-all system; it's just about getting people to think the right way about others' motivations and behaviors (eg, if some encounters a type 8, he/she may perceive the 8 as acting cotrolling; Enneagram helps him/her to know that it's not necessarily an insecure move or an attempt to be a jerk/submit people; it's just how they are, and if it bothers you, you should realize that they aren't necessarily being aggressive or confrontational, and should not be "confronted" about this behavior, but rather dealt with rationally and honestly). It's really just promoting rational perspectives on naturally observable behaviors and the motivations that create them; it's not a rigid, sophisticated psychological tool like Socionics.
No, there shouldn't, because these are about basic behaviors and motivations. Just as you seek to prove with your dual-type theory, people can have entirely different personalities and motivations, and yet still have goals, upbringings, standards, etc that are compatible. The enneagram doesn't have something as basic or fundamental as information elements involved in the formulation of the types that would imply a very specific and defined set of relationships; like you're implying, it's a little more superficial than socionics, and as such isn't going to have as deep an impact on the relationships between people.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
I agree. But consider, there are institutions that use enneagram professionally. Would you not argue that it is counterproductive to use a non-rigorous system to describe personality in place of a rigorous system? I'm not faulting enneagram per se, but rather the people who would look to enneagram to understand themselves as opposed to working towards a system which further describes people in objective terms.
I would argue that enneagram itself should be reconsidered because it distracts from the larger issue, that of minimal objective understanding of human personality.
Well, obviously it would be great if they could use Socionics, but the enneagram is simple and popular enough that it's accessible to both businesses and all of the workers. I wouldn't say it's counterproductive to at least use SOMETHING; it's not as good as it could be, but it's a start, at least.
Now you might say that the fact that the enneagram exists and is used would be a discouragement to replace it with Socionics
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Not only that, I would argue that the time has come for new theories that are socionics-like, but reckon the different orientations of content itself, and not just the process. Socionics says much about the process but little about the content, much about substance but little about form.
Agreed; Socionics definitely deals with the "matter" and not the "form." But the form doesn't always follow directly from the nature of the matter once outside influences are introduced, and it's pretty damn hard to encompass all of the factors that studying the form necessitates in an accurate, comprehensive, and practical model.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Well, 6w7 fits. As well as 4w3...maybe...
Stress and Growth fits better for the 6 than the 4 though.
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
The Enneagram Compatibility Combinations
[Stormy] [LII]
All of that is perfectly consistent with being LII.
1s are closest to IJ temperament, above all to LSIs, but rationals generally would identify partly with it I think.
5s are direct descentants of Jung's Introverted Thinkers, which were both LIIs and ILIs imo.
So it makes perfect sense in your case as Ti IJ.
That is my case too. Of course, others identify more readily with Enneagram types.
.
regarding type correlations i think that 1 seems ix(n?)j 2 Fj/Fe 3 extx 4 infp 5 intp 6 seems isxj 7 enfp 8 estp 9 infj
i'm just going with the "stereotype" some people have made correlations here:
http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/typecorr.htm
regarding types 3, 6, and 8
oftentimes people correlate type 8 to entjs "with a massive hidden agenda." i think the same could be said for entps and type 3
6s just seem to be a paranoid/anxious/nervous type but not especially so about relationships. i think they tend to be more focused on securing material goods as a safety net in times of trouble.
Question about wings:
Do they have to be directly adjacent to your base type?
In my situation, it is hard for me to choose between 5w4 or 5w6. I was also wondering if "5w1" is possible?
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
In answer to the first part, yes. If your base is 5, like mine, then it's only 5w4 or 6.
INTP/ILI(Ni)
"When my time comes, forget the wrong that I've done.
Help me leave behind some reasons to be missed."
There is no 5w1, only 5w4 and 5w6. But a 5 can have an arrow toward 8 or 7.
According to my own intepretation, for you to be torn between 5 and 1 merely confirms that you are INTj-Ti.
http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...=205513#205513 - other enneagram thread, in which I was intrigued by the 5 so/sx profile. That fits me very well.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
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