• MCV: Mind Reading Fe

    Fe - What is this TPE doing? What's happening?

    Info is gathered from Direct Experience of the Actions.
    Info gathered is hinted at, suggested, understood indirectly.

    (Ethics - the actions have an emotional and cognitive impact on our psyche...such as mirror neurons)

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    It's easy to imagine that neural clusters are activated in the brain each time you move. But many people aren't aware that when you observe someone else moving, many of those same neural clusters will activate.

    By this natural process of activation, we each unconsciously mimic the actions of others. It helps us share in the experiences of others, and to know what they are feeling, without having to think/talk about it.

    Mirror neurons primarily exist in the areas of the brain concerned with movement, sensations, emotions, and intentions.

    -----

    Movement
    A demonstration was done in which tennis players watching a video of a moving ball activated the areas of the brain that track visual objects. But when they watched a video of someone serving the ball, the above visual tracking areas activated, AND other areas of the brain that showed that the viewer's brain was "acting out" the moves seen in the video. It's believed that by the brain doing so, it helps the viewer/brain predict where the ball will go.

    Hogwash, you say. The brain's not imagining that it's doing the actions.
    Actually, it is.

    When we watch a TPE action, the mirror neurons are activated.
    And when we actually act on the TPE, causing the same action, those same neurons activate, PLUS a few mor areas related to intent (and actual muscle initiation, etc).
    So we have [action clusters] +/- [intent clusters] being activated. Depending on if we are doing it...or merely watching it.

    But wait...it gets better!

    When we see another person expressing an emotion, the areas of the brain associated with feeling that emotion becomes activated. That emotion you saw has triggered the same emotion in yourself! You feel what you saw felt.

    And wait...there's still more!!

    Our brains also mirror intentions.

    Two movements may be identical, but may signal very different things, in different contexts.
    If you see a person picking up a cup to drink from, your brain will activated a different set of neurons than if that person was picking up a cup to clear the table.

    Add them up together and you get
    [action clusters] + [emotion clusters] + [intention clusters]

    But remember, it's not just watching it happening...like an outside observer...
    you literally feel it happening.
    You feel what it's like to do the action;
    You feel the emotions you saw felt; and
    You feel the intention as well.

    This allows us to get a glimpse of someone else's plans and thought processes w/o consciously having to work it out.

    You really ARE a mindreader!!!

    ------

    Or ARE you?
    • You felt what it was like to do the action...
    • You felt the emotions you saw...
    • And you even felt the intentions you observed...

    So you know it all...you know everything that was going on in that person's mind, right?

    No. You don't.


    When you see someone doing something,
    your brain activates what it would be like if YOU were doing it
    When you see someone expressing an emotion,
    your brain activates what it would be like if YOU expressed that way
    When you see someone acting with an intent,
    your brain activates what it would be like if YOU had that intent
    What you're feeling is YOUR actions, YOUR emotions, w/ YOUR intent.
    Not theirs.

    And, in order to mirror another's actions, the action must "resonate" with a motor program that your brain has already learned.

    If you've never played tennis, your brain won't activate the same neuron clusters of action, nor intent, that an actual tennis player's would.

    If you've never experienced/learned a particular emotion, you're brain won't activate the same neurons as the actual emotion would.

    And if you've never done something with the other person's actual intent, you're brain won't activate THEIR intent...it will active YOUR intent in that same context.

    Mirror Neurons...Projection at its finest?

    WARNING!!
    If you dare mention to an Fe ego that they are projecting the intentions, or that the intention they gave for your actions is wrong, expect there to be hell to pay. Because they KNOW! They can read your body language! They can read your ind! and yes!!! They obviously know you better than you know yourself!!
    Sound familiar?

    ---------

    Woah there, Nellie.
    Lest you think I'm demonizing Fe, let's think about the implications of your actions...and the Fe's mirror neurons.

    You're sad and depressed, your body language expresses this without you even realizing it...
    and now you've made the Fe feel sad and depressed.
    You get angry, kick some dirt around, punch a wall, threaten to harm someone..
    you've just induced similar rage and intent into the Fe.
    You throw up your hands and say "Fuck It! I Quit!"...
    you've triggered similar into Fe.

    Do you have any idea how rude you are being?
    How rude it is to shove your emotions down someone's throat even when you think you're not expressing any emotion?

    No wonder Fe thinks you're an ass....
    cuz you ARE an ass for doing that...
    and worse...denying that you're doing it. wtf? You F***n Liar!


    So why the hell would Fe want to spend time with you?

    Well, if you have similar views on TPE,
    have experienced TPE together,
    have similar intentions, hopes, and dreams,
    or at least willing to let the Fe type join you in your actions/experiences...
    then they'll more easily 'comprehend' the signals you're sending out.
    And since it's shared or similar, you won't be denying what they feel...
    nor denying what they know about you.


    Team work...everyone with the same intent, the same goal. How heavenly would that be for Fe types?

    Coming from the same Tribe, with the same cultural upbringing, the same symbolism, the same mannerisms. How soothing that must be. To finally be able to trust the people around you, to know and understand the people around you, and to be safely away from those idiots who constantly deny their feelings, their thoughts, and their intentions.

    -----------

    Fe is often linked with emotions, emotional expression, imitation/mimicry, and acting.
    Fe types are often accused of trying to manipulate the emotional atmospheres, and of trying to evoke emotional reactions in others.

    Your exuberance and arousability infects them...
    Maybe they're trying to help you feel the same exuberance and joy they're feeling.

    There are so many ways Fe can express itself....and thus infect Fe emotions into others.
    Song, Dance, Poetry, expressive gestures, maybe even a hearty pat on the shoulder and a big smile

    Smile!..and you'll begin to actually feel happy.
    "If you chance to meet a frown,
    Do not let it stay...
    Quickly turn it upside down
    And smile that frown away."

    If you think that was annoying..spend some time with two or more Fe emo types.
    They'll show you just how emo emo can be.

    ----------
    And finally,

    Fe is quick to pick up on nuances in phrasing, tone, and unconscious gestures.
    You're an open book to Fe...
    as long as you two 'speak' the same 'language'.
    (However, Fe types may not always be aware of nor remember the implications of that last part.)
    This article was originally published in blog: MCV: Mind Reading Fe started by anndelise
    Comments 12 Comments
    1. sharkfin's Avatar
      sharkfin -
      I'm an EIE and just wanted to add that it's a good point you made about comfort in the same "tribe". For me, there is a wisdom in this. I'll explain. Due to the relative reliability of being accurate in gauging others who I have the most familiarity, history, experience, similarity, proximity with. Ie. The more alike we are and the more we are in tune to the same things and have had the same experiences and importantly, demonstrate our emotions re these things, the more likely I'm going to be on the same page, and thus "on target" to a significant degree in reading others correctly. This is is why when I have to socialize with people out of my norm, I can actually feel out of my depth and have to watch and learn others.

      The "I know what you are feeling" presumption you've written about isn't as far as I'm concerned expressed in this sort of egotistical way. I'm actually pretty conscious of not being a mindreader in this literal sort of way. What does happen, is that I can get fooled or misinterpret how someone is feeling, which happens not infrequently. This could happen because the person might just show their emotional states in a way differently to me. It also happens when someone is purposefully trying to fool me. I know some people who know me closely, know if they "put on a certain face" (exude an emotional state), I will take it at face value. That's where I get hung up, because I actually in that moment believed what I "saw/felt" from them. It can be hard to sway me that I was wrong in some circumstances.

      By by the same token, if I find out later, that what the person was conveying was an act, I can feel confused, manipulated and depending on the degree of "fake out" pretty po'd.
    1. IBTL's Avatar
      IBTL -
      I wouldn't equate Fe with an information hub; S and N take in information.
    1. IBTL's Avatar
      IBTL -
      Fe is analogous to a potion when freely given to others.
    1. The Foundation's Avatar
      The Foundation -
      I always try and resist emotional mirror neurons when I feel them. It isn't even due to social reasons such as "I don't want someone to see me in this state", it's a matter of principle. The flood of emotion that isn't necessarily mine is just toxic to me.

      If you dare mention to an Fe ego that they are projecting the intentions, or that the intention they gave for your actions is wrong, expect there to be hell to pay. Because they KNOW! They can read your body language! They can read your ind! and yes!!! They obviouslyknow you better than you know yourself!!
      This is why egos terrify me. Unfortunately for a weak such as myself, they don't know me better than I know myself, because I don't give off enough information for them to build accurate models, and that irritates them and me in the process when they try and claim they know me when I barely interact with them usually. They do that cringe-worthy "familiarize themselves with their interlocutor" routine where they interject things such as "that's so you" or where they comment on your actions as being idiosyncratic of your overall behaviorism as if they deserve attention for noticing. Now, I realize this probably seems quite harsh in judgement and highly unfair and it is, and I do realize that many people actually enjoy interactions such as these, but it is just so damn uncomfortable for me.

      Exceptional article, very insightful into the cognition of egos, for me at least.
    1. Chae's Avatar
      Chae -
      Ohhhh mwahh, very interesting
    1. Tearsofaclown's Avatar
      Tearsofaclown -
      Quote Originally Posted by The Foundation View Post
      I always try and resist emotional mirror neurons when I feel them. It isn't even due to social reasons such as "I don't want someone to see me in this state", it's a matter of principle. The flood of emotion that isn't necessarily mine is just toxic to me.



      This is why egos terrify me. Unfortunately for a weak such as myself, they don't know me better than I know myself, because I don't give off enough information for them to build accurate models, and that irritates them and me in the process when they try and claim they know me when I barely interact with them usually. They do that cringe-worthy "familiarize themselves with their interlocutor" routine where they interject things such as "that's so you" or where they comment on your actions as being idiosyncratic of your overall behaviorism as if they deserve attention for noticing. Now, I realize this probably seems quite harsh in judgement and highly unfair and it is, and I do realize that many people actually enjoy interactions such as these, but it is just so damn uncomfortable for me.

      Exceptional article, very insightful into the cognition of egos, for me at least.
      Exactly. There is no mind reading. It is just extracting information and the less information you give us the less we know about you. Pretty simple.

      I often wondered what types would be the best psychic conman. Like who claim to channel dead relatives. It is a pretty sophisticated scheme. Ever notice how psychics are such good talkers? They are very good at controlling and directing the conversation. That is part of the trick.


      btw, it is also Ni which refuses the object to capture it. like a mirror. nothing can reflect our image. It can never take us and spit us back out in perfect replication. Like a mirror shows yourself back at you.
    1. Aylen's Avatar
      Aylen -
      I am Fe ego with the GG genotype. It's not mind reading but people give off a lot of nonverbal information. I don't like someone assuming very personal things about me either, especially with little knowledge of my life, but some people don't seem to mind being "read". Since I don't like it I try to avoid doing it to others but sometimes I slip. I often won't even do it when asked though. If I were an Fe lead this information might be more important to me and I might use it to my advantage more than I do. I might even be dangerous. The universe in its infinite wisdom did not give me the full power of Fe.

      One study also says that people who have the GG genotype have more empathy to those of their "in" or racial group and less empathy toward "outsiders". I do not find I have less empathy for certain races but I do have less empathy for those I see not being part of my "in" group. The line there is very arbitrary though. Someone can be part of my in group and not even know it. This is kind of a mental thing for me. I am not a very social person so I can have these ideas of people I really like but do not want to have ongoing interactions with. I kind of appreciate them from afar.
      I have been looking at my dna to see how it aligns with my self typing. It is pretty interesting.
       


      Overview:

      rs53576 is found on chromosome 3 and linked to the gene OXTR. The major allele (G) is observed in 61% of the general population. The minor allele (A) is observed in 39%. Your genotype is GG, which is observed in 39% of all individuals reported.

      The Major "G" allele is associated with:

      • GG have a more positive 'affect' or disposition.(R) AA and AG individuals were judged to be less pro-social and displayed fewer nonverbal cues Ó head nods and smiles Ó compared to GG people. The study suggested that the association between and prosociality was stronger for men, but also true for women. (R)
      • GG are more optimistic.(R)
      • GG are more empathetic. (R)
      • GG handle stress better.(R)
      • GG are better at accurately reading the emotions of others by observing their faces. (R) compared to AA or AG.
      • GG are less likely to startle when blasted by a loud noise, or to become stressed at the prospect of such a noise.(R)
      • GG was more mellow and more attuned to other people than were the AA or AG.(R)
      • GG have a higher Verbal IQ.(R)
      • GG feel less lonely(R)
      • GG was less likely to seek support from their peers.(R)
      • GG employ more sensitive parenting techniques.(R)
      • GG have lower rates of autism.(R)
      • GG have less difficulty hearing and understanding in noisy environments.(R)
      • In response to an interview, GG or AG had significantly lower cortisol responses to stress when they had social support. There were no differences in cortisol levels in subjects with the AA genotype receiving or not receiving social support. The AA genotype tended to have higher levels of cortisol throughout the session than G carriers (no differences between the genotypes were observed at baseline). (R)
      • GG have more gray matter volume in the hypothalamus and greater hypothalamus volume and more activation in the amygdala. (R)
      • GG are less predisposed to major depression. (R)
      • GG take social rejection worse than others. GG had higher blood pressure and cortisol levels the following rejection, effects not apparent among A carriers. (R)
      • GG was less empathetic to pain experienced by racial 'out group' vs racial 'in group' members (Asians vs Whites). However, AA experienced more pleasure from pain to racial out-groups. (R)
      • So GG cares less about other races or who they view as 'other' (including competitions), but AA experiences more schadenfreude, which is pleasure at out-group pain or downfall.(R)


      A large part of how we relate to people emotionally may be hardwired into our DNA. A new study suggests that character traits such as being open, caring, and trusting are so strongly linked to a certain gene variation that a total stranger, simply by watching us listen to another person, may be able to guess whether we have the variation with a high degree of accuracy.

      Previous studies have linked several personality traits to variations in this gene, which acts as a docking station (or receptor) for the brain chemical oxytocin -- often referred to as the "love hormone" because it plays a role in social behaviors such as bonding, empathy, and anxiety.

      People who have two "G" variants of this oxytocin receptor gene tend to have better social skills and higher self-esteem, research has shown. Conversely, those with at least one "A" variant tend to have a harder time dealing with stress, worse mental-health outcomes, and a greater likelihood of being autistic.

      "We've known that genotype can influence personality, but we'd only ever studied what goes on inside a person -- things like behavioral scales and heart-rate measurements," says Serena Rodrigues Saturn, Ph.D., a senior author of the study and an assistant professor of psychology at Oregon State University, in Corvallis. "This is the first time anyone has observed how different genotypes manifest themselves in behaviors that complete strangers can pick up on."

      To explore the relationship between a person's genetics and demeanor, Rodrigues Saturn and her colleagues recruited 23 romantic couples, and videotaped them while one partner recalled and discussed a time of suffering in their lives. The other partner, who had given a saliva sample to determine his or her genotype, was simply asked to sit and listen.

      The researchers then showed 20 seconds of each video clip to a group of 116 people. None of the viewers knew the video subjects, and they watched the clips with the sound off so they had no knowledge of the situations being discussed. They were then asked to rate how kind, caring, and trustworthy the listening partner seemed, based only on visual cues.

      "They looked for things like nodding along with their partner, holding eye contact, keeping an open body posture," Rodrigues Saturn says. "Those people were judged as more social and caring, as opposed to others who seemed much more aloof."

      Although they expected to find some association between the subjects' genotypes and their rankings, the researchers were "blown away" by how accurate the observers' intuition actually was, Rodrigues Saturn says. Out of the 10 people who were ranked as "most prosocial," six had the GG genotype, and of the 10 ranked "least trusted," nine were carriers of at least one A variant.

      The findings were published today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

      Keith Kendrick, Ph.D., a neuroscientist at the University of Electronic Science and Technology of China, in Chengdu, says it's important to note that genes besides the oxytocin receptor gene -- not to mention other, non-genetic factors -- influence social behavior as well. Oxytocin receptors have been shown to be modified by a person's environment, for example, so life experiences presumably play a large role too, he says.

      "Just because you have an 'A' version of this one receptor gene clearly does not mark you down as a completely unsocial individual," says Kendrick, who was not involved in the study. "Obviously many different genes contribute to something as complex as social behavior, but it is interesting that this particular one appears to be so influential."

      One genotype isn't necessarily better or healthier than the other, Rodrigues Saturn says. Although scientists used to refer to the gene's "A" variant as a "risk" variant (because it increases risk of autism and social dysfunction), many experts now think of the variations as just that: variations that may—along with many other forces -- play out in personalities.

      "It's important to understand that some people are... naturally more held back, or may be overcome by their own personal stresses and have a hard time relating to others," Rodrigues Saturn says. Putting these people in more comfortable environments that naturally induce the production of oxytocin may help to coax them out of their shells and help them feel more "warm and fuzzy," she says.

      http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/15/health...nes/index.html
      I have a cousin here helping me find the correlations with my dna results and at some point I may make a blog or thread. I have been working on this off and on for months and posted bits here and there but now I have someone to help me organize it a bit better.
    1. squark's Avatar
      squark -
      Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
      I am Fe ego with the GG genotype.
      I also have this genotype, perhaps it makes me slightly less emotionally retarded than I might have been otherwise since I'm not Fe ego heh.
    1. Aylen's Avatar
      Aylen -
      Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
      I also have this genotype, perhaps it makes me slightly less emotionally retarded than I might have been otherwise since I'm not Fe ego heh.
      Beta confirmed. How else would you deal with an Fe intense atmosphere? j/k

      I was also looking at some other SNPs to see how they align with my type and I see some align with my Big 5 except I would not say my neuroticism is higher than average unless stressed beyond my limits. I do handle stress ok. I know to take a step back and reevaluate. I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child but that diagnosis was soon thrown out. I was too low energy for one so they decided on something completely different. :/ I am diagnosis free as of now. Thanks to a very perceptive therapist. lol I would much rather correlate some of this to being sx first. I am not aggressive unless provoked really. I am competitive as the sx 4 descriptions suggest. I have the warrior gene but so do other females here. It seems it has to do more with provocation at least in women. I feel like I fell down a rabbit hole when I joined self decode.


      Overview:

      rs1108580 is linked to the gene DBH. The major allele (A) is observed in 57% of the general population. The minor allele (G) is observed in 43%. Your genotype is AA, which is observed in 37% of all individuals reported.

      The Major "A" allele is associated with:

      • Slightly increased the risk of Schizophrenia (R).
      • Hyperactive and oppositional characteristic traits (R).
      • More accurate and speedier decision making when incorrect advice is given (R).
      • Faster at verifying computer-generated recommendations (R).
      • ADHD (R) (R), especially for males (R).

      Overview:

      rs1611115 is found on chromosome 9 and linked to the gene DBH. The major allele (C) is observed in 79% of the general population. The minor allele (T) is observed in 21%. Your genotype is TT, which is observed in 5% of all individuals reported.

      The Minor "T" allele is associated with:
      • Higher dopamine and lower norepinephrine because of lower DBH (Dopamine-beta-hydroxylase), which converts dopamine to norepinephrine (T) (R).
      • More neuroticism (TT) (R).
      • More novelty seeking (TT) (R).
      • More impulsivity (TT) (R).
      • More aggression (TT) (R).
      • Increased risk of adult ADHD (TT) (R).
      • Lower conscientiousness (TT) (R),



      Overview:

      rs909525 is linked to the gene MAOA. The major allele (T) is observed in 57% of the general population. The minor allele (C) is observed in 43%. Your genotype is TC, which is observed in 22% of all individuals reported.

      https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/rs909525
      Overview:

      rs6265 is found on chromosome 11 and linked to the gene BDNF. The major allele (C) is observed in 80% of the general population. The minor allele (T) is observed in 20%. Your genotype is CC, which is observed in 67% of all individuals reported.

      What the science suggests:

      Your genotype (CC) is associated with:
      • 20 minutes more slow-wave sleep (stage ĺ) and increased sleep intensity compared to CT (CC) [R].
      • Double the EEG alpha waves (9.75-11.75 Hz) compared to the CT genotype subjects (both in a rested and also a sleep-deprived state) (CC) [R].
      • The slowest wave activity in the first slow wave cycle. Slow wave activity tended to decline more in CC compared to CT in subsequent cycles (CC) [R].
      • Better response accuracy than T on a verbal 2-back working memory task (CC) [R].
      • 19.3 of BDNF in CC compared to 17.0 of BDNF in TT and CT, not too significant of a difference [R] Other factors of BDNF are also altered.
      • Higher performance in digital working memory and spatial localization than TT in Chinese (CC) [R].
      • Higher mean intelligence [R].
      • Better response to repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation, with drug-resistant depression (CC) [R].
      • Seeking positive emotions (e.g., happy faces) and having a stronger reaction to negative emotions (e.g., angry, fearful, and sad faces) compared to CT (CC) [R].
      • Reduced stress-induced anxiety-like behavior (CC) compared to TT [R].
      • Higher scores on trait-anxiety and neuroticism (not significant) compare to CT or TT (CC) [R], although other studies have not found an association with Neuroticism [R].
    1. Chae's Avatar
      Chae -
      Quote Originally Posted by IBTL View Post
      Fe is analogous to a potion when freely given to others.
      ^This is a good idea, and it could be anything.
    1. squark's Avatar
      squark -
      Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
      Beta confirmed. How else would you deal with an Fe intense atmosphere? j/k
      Lol!

      I have not used self decode, just promethease but it's fun to look at. I find it interesting how I can have genes both for and against certain traits, and how that plays out in the end. It also can highlight the importance of environmental factors.
    1. Aylen's Avatar
      Aylen -
      Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
      Lol!

      I have not used self decode, just promethease but it's fun to look at. I find it interesting how I can have genes both for and against certain traits, and how that plays out in the end. It also can highlight the importance of environmental factors.
      Yeah, the reason I like self decode is it takes some of the guesswork out of it because it will grade you in certain categories by weighing the influence. At least I think that is how they do it. It still has a lot of info and more added daily. I like checking out different gene packs. It gives recommendations on how to potentially lower risks and what supplements can help. It will give you all your bad or rare SNPs in one place so you don't have to search for them but I know promethease can do the same. So much info that I can only take it for like an hour or two then I have to shift gears and do something else.