Enneagram behaviors that correlate to the functions

[Azure Flame]

Edited:
I apologize for making a horrible thread. I layed it out as a statement of absolute belief when that wasn't my intention. I'll try this again.

Do you think its possible that some traits of enneagram personalities are incorrectly attributed to enneagram? For example: if enneagram say something like, 8's have expansive energy, I start to wonder what socionics functions would also describe a sort of expansive energy. I start to think, Se rises to meet challenges, and Fe also has a sort of energy thing to it.

So do you think its possible some enneagram traits are attributed to enneagram when they shouldn't be? What do you think those things are, and why?

[Ryan]

I noticed that you attribute energy, when referring to people, to Se. I would say that's more likely to be Fe.

[Saberstorm]

I get the feeling that DJ does not really know his stuff, not just yet....

[fen]

these are all really bad generalizations

[Darkworker]

Even though what you came up with here is perfectly logical due to your Ti, you fail to include all the factors and this is why your theory sucks balls.

I will give you one example.

E5: unconfident in taking action until all facts have been accounted for... Ti dominance and their need to form a watertight conclusion before moving on to the next theory.
Not all fives are Ti dominant. There are Ni dominant fives, there are Si-Te fives, Ni-Fe, and even Fi-Ne. Therefore the pattern enneagram describes is good and legit, because it is a pattern that even Ethical fives have.

[Korpsy Knievel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greedy_reductionism

[squark]

You're interesting DJA. I've been noticing something in your threads/posts. You're not very solid in anything you say are you? It seems like you throw things out there in the hopes that other people will poke and prod and correct it and make sense of it. They're not fully developed ideas that you've really thought through, just some vague formless thing, that you seem to hope takes shape through the process of discussing it. I remember that being connected to something . . . but am in tired fog-land and can't recall exactly what it was. Testing different things to see what finally works . . . damn what was that? Anyway, through the course of your threads your opinion seems to change very easily, and switch to something else - but I think it's more that you're just checking different angles to figure out the answer.

- this particular enneagram idea needs a lot more work before tossing it out for discussion btw.

[Azure Flame]

You're interesting DJA. I've been noticing something in your threads/posts. You're not very solid in anything you say are you? It seems like you throw things out there in the hopes that other people will poke and prod and correct it and make sense of it. They're not fully developed ideas that you've really thought through, just some vague formless thing, that you seem to hope takes shape through the process of discussing it. I remember that being connected to something . . . but am in tired fog-land and can't recall exactly what it was. Testing different things to see what finally works . . . damn what was that? Anyway, through the course of your threads your opinion seems to change very easily, and switch to something else - but I think it's more that you're just checking different angles to figure out the answer.

- this particular enneagram idea needs a lot more work before tossing it out for discussion btw.

Holographic Panoramic needs to see the idea from other perspectives before completely understanding it.

ps: thanks for at least having a critical mind and not just immediately dismissing the thread.

[Galen]

holy shit arendee you are still not a fucking E8

[squark]

holy shit arendee you are still not a fucking E8

I always thought he was a 6. Does he seem like one of your kind to you?

[Galen]

I always thought he was a 6. Does he seem like one of your kind to you?

Any head type, particularly 6, seems muuuuch more likely imo too. It would better explain what you're seeing about him just throwing stuff at the wall without any great sense of confidence in what'll stick, and waiting for other people to chime in and give external confirmation. Very attachment triad in that sense.

[Azure Flame]

yeah you're all wrong as hell. You can point out every non-8 behavior I have its not going to change, probably because I'm a huge twat.

I'd appreciate it if you all actually listen to what I have to say for a change instead of ignoring everything that comes out of my mouth.

@Galen...Inability to think for myself has nothing to do with enneagram, it has to do with extroversion/introversion. My need for other's perspectives stems from weak Ne and weak Ni. Its not a form of validation seeking behavior, its a form of blindness, and I am asking that you please lend me your eyes.

@Ashton... drop your beta male insecurity for god sakes. I'm not going to steal your thunder or whatever the hell it is you're afraid of. You keep bringing it up. I would look into yourself for an answer as to why it bugs you so much instead of pester me through all my posts. If none of those reasons fit, maybe you should go get some fresh air.

[Galen]

@Galen...Inability to think for myself has nothing to do with enneagram, it has to do with extroversion/introversion. My need for other's perspectives stems from weak Ne and weak Ni.

That's a load of shit and you know it. Look at the patterns of any other Se type on the forum, hell even between Ne types, there's 0 correlation between Se/Ne types on here and what you're describing. Several of the E6s, on the other hand...

Its not a form of validation seeking behavior, its a form of blindness, and I ask that you lend me your eyes.

I'd rather you learn to navigate for yourself by other means instead of having to depend on other people to do it for you. If anything what you've just said about yourself is even more indicative of your 6ness.

[Azure Flame]

There's other E8s around here aside from me—you're just not one of them.

oh because you said so? I stand convinced.

[Azure Flame]

I'd rather you learn to navigate for yourself by other means instead of having to depend on other people to do it for you. If anything what you've just said about yourself is even more indicative of your 6ness.

I see your point. Perhaps you're not understanding Fe, because that's what it does. My morals, and even others' experiences are extracted from external sources and metabolized into my own usable form when I'm alone. Another reason I believe Enneagram is assigning attributes to itself when it shouldn't be.

[Galen]

I see your point. Perhaps you're not understanding Fe.

Perhaps you should learn to stop making excuses for yourself.

My morals are extracted from external sources and metabolized into my own usable form when I'm alone.

What does any of this have to do with morality?

[Azure Flame]

More because you've said so. We've had discussions about this before in a few of your other threads, and I've pointed out how your own statements & actions demonstrate you as E6 > E8.

You've done no such thing. You only accuse.

[Azure Flame]

Perhaps you should learn to stop making excuses for yourself.

I don't make excuses. I don't live in denial. I know exactly what my problems are and I seek solutions to those problems. I'd double check yourself to make sure you're not projecting, after all, you are a 6, and that's what 6's do.

What does any of this have to do with morality?

I mentioned experiences as well. My thought process was that, when I make big decisions, I often go across multiple websites for many different perspectives. Then I weight them in my own mind and see who is the most correct. This, I attribute to Fe and holographic panoramic thought process.

[Azure Flame]

You wanna go for a history walk?

sure.

[Radio]

let's not forget how DJA actually played Sylvester Stallone in Rambo and has gotten mentorship from Al Pacino to be as tough-dudely awesome and badass as he is right now

[FDG]

Holographic Panoramic needs to see the idea from other perspectives before completely understanding it.

ps: thanks for at least having a critical mind and not just immediately dismissing the thread.

No, holographic-panoramic can test the idea in "its own mind" lots of times before opening up. Just think about ESIs and LIIs...they are very rarely wrong (when well-adjusted), their opinions are extremely parsimonious.

The approach very well described by squark is your typical vortical-synergistic, which finds in holographic-panoramic its duality: vorticals randomly throw out ideas, holographers very critically analyze them.

[Azure Flame]

@Galen

Here is a paragraph on the holographic thought process. I overlay multiple sources of information until I see a complete and full picture. I don't like to make mistakes when I make big decisions. My lack of reckless decision making does not imply 6. And even if you were to imply that I WAS a reckless decision maker, you'd still attribute it to being a counterphobic six. Your argument is invalid.

This cognitive style has much in common with the holographic principle in physics. A hologram (optical) is a statistically recorded interference pattern made by two beams of light which are transmitted and reflected from a single source. Holographic technology allows us to obtain a three-dimensional image of an object. The hologram itself is an aggregation of stripes and spots exactly resembling the embedded object. The two beams of light are superimposed in such a way that every part of the hologram carries information about the whole.

In this way, by mentally superimposing multiple projections of the same object, Holographists reach a holistic view. To do this, they look at the image and select a desired angle of examination. Holographic cognition often utilizes the grammatical conjunctives: "or-or", "either-or", "on the one hand, on the other hand". It actively uses the principle of perspective; unrestricted choice in point of view. The holographic approach is a progressive approximation towards the purpose, or away from it, accompanied by changes of perspective. The holographic process is carried out as if calibrating focus.

[FDG]

let's not forget how DJA actually played Sylvester Stallone in Rambo and has gotten mentorship from Al Pacino to be as tough-dudely awesome and badass as he is right now

For some reason, I cannot click constructive!

[Azure Flame]

No, holographic-panoramic can test the idea in "its own mind" lots of times before opening up. Just think about ESIs and LIIs...they are very rarely wrong (when well-adjusted), their opinions are extremely parsimonious.

The approach very well described by squark is your typical vortical-synergistic, which finds in holographic-panoramic its duality: vorticals randomly throw out ideas, holographers very critically analyze them.

oh PALEEZE

If I had a nickle for everytime an LII was wrong, I wouldn't consider myself unemployed. That is the biggest load of horse shit I've ever heard.

[Galen]

I don't make excuses. I don't live in denial. I know exactly what my problems are and I seek solutions to those problems.

Well you sure as hell aren't going to find solutions to your problems muddling through socionical theory.

I'd double check yourself to make sure you're not projecting, after all, you are a 6, and that's what 6's do.

Projecting your own projections onto others? How positively gauche.

I mentioned experiences as well. My thought process was that, when I make big decisions, I often go across multiple websites for many different perspectives. Then I weight them in my own mind and see who is the most correct. This, I attribute to Fe and holographic panoramic thought process.

Ok cool, so you admit that you're a head-type then.

None of this has anything to do with experiences or morality; in fact, stirring around thoughts in your own mind for all of eternity (which you do, see your endless ruminations and hair-splitting about what ISFj girl think of you) instead of acting upon something is pretty much the opposite of experience.

[Azure Flame]

–Your family seems to be a point of neurotic fixation for you, feeling that they tear you down, etc. (suggestive of E6 issuez).

And I rebut that with the E8 theme of vengeance.

Low libido (suggestive of type cut off from gut/instinct center—e.g., E6).

where on the internet does it say libido is in any way related to enneagram? I have complained about having a low libido, but that is not a constant thing in my life. my libido is cyclical depending on circumstances.

The superhero self-image stuff.

SLE. Go read a comic book sometime.

[Azure Flame]

None of this has anything to do with experiences or morality; in fact, stirring around thoughts in your own mind for all of eternity (which you do, see your endless ruminations and hair-splitting about what ISFj girl think of you) instead of acting upon something is pretty much the opposite of experience.

E8's become E5's when E2 or E8 doesn't work. There was no lack of action in my interaction with her. I've taken plenty of action and have only recently had to concede my pursuit for her. When action and emotion doesn't work, I come to socionics and psychology and theory for an answer.

[Azure Flame]

Well you sure as hell aren't going to find solutions to your problems muddling through socionical theory.

that is your opinion.

[Absurd]

Hey, DJA, you think after unleashing Absurd, I'm going to tear this forum apart?

[Galen]

Here is a paragraph on the holographic thought process. I overlay multiple sources of information until I see a complete and full picture.

Regardless of how true or untrue this is of you, I'm not arguing that you're HP or anything. What I am saying is that bouncing half-baked ideas and gross generalizations off of other people like this (see also: Ath, who is not Se and does the exact same thing at a more rapid pace than you) is an observably much more head-triad + attachment-related phenomenon.

And even if you were to imply that I WAS a reckless decision maker, you'd still attribute it to being a counterphobic six.

Which I'm not arguing, great strawman there bucko. You can continue to manufacture intentions though, it only proves my point that much more.

Your argument is invalid.

god I really hate it when people blurt "your argument is invalid" as if they've come to conclude a checkmate in the argument while remaining totally oblivious to how fucking wrong they are.

And I rebut that with the E8 theme of vengeance.

...

SLE. Go read a comic book sometime.

Come back when you've learned to stop this absurd behaviorist reductionism, it's not helping your cause.

[Azure Flame]

Hey, DJA, you think after unleashing Absurd, I'm going to tear this forum apart?

I'll keep you locked up in a cage for later when I have need of you.

[Galen]

E8's become E5's when E2 or E8 doesn't work.

No they don't. Integration/disintegration only serves to explain secondary personality characteristics based on relative levels of health, a concept I don't even really buy in the first place.

There was no lack of action in my interaction with her. I've taken plenty of action and have only recently had to concede my pursuit for her.

There was a fuckton of "lack of action" when you were busy trying to parse together "what could she be thinking" "does she really like me" "does this trivial bit of info help me figure out the problem" etc ad nauseum.

that is your opinion.

Let me know when you get tired of running in circles after not finding the answers you're looking for.

[Azure Flame]

some stuff

All I got out of this was "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG!" *tears*

Combat my opinion with sources and quotes and I might not dismiss you so quickly.

[Azure Flame]

No they don't. Integration/disintegration only serves to explain secondary personality characteristics based on relative levels of health, a concept I don't even really buy in the first place.

Who are you to make that decision?

I'm done arguing with you, you're a fucking retard.

[Galen]

All I got out of this was "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG!" *tears*

Then this shows you have no intention of reading my posts critically. Go to sleep.

Who are you to make that decision?

Who says I'm making any hard and fast decisions on how this works? If you want to pose a counter-argument to what I've said then feel free, but don't get your dick in a knot over it.

I'm done arguing with you

OH NO YOU'RE NOT

[Azure Flame]

Then this shows you have no intention of reading my posts critically.

I have given you the key to my critical thought process. use quotes and sources, and I will listen to you. Until then, everything that comes out of your mouth is an opinion and is completely Ti polr.

Go to sleep.

I don't live in your timezone. Its only 12:58 over here. More evidence that you are projecting and self centered.

[Absurd]

I'll keep you locked up in a cage for later when I have need of you.

Careful jxrtes, I can eat through steel bars and come back for dessert.

[Gilly]

E3 is still possible IMO, it would have to be 3w4 sp/sx or sp/so.

[Galen]

I have given you the key to my critical thought process. use quotes and sources, and I will listen to you. Until then, everything that comes out of your mouth is an opinion and is completely Ti polr.

Everything that comes out of my mouth is an *observation.* World of difference there. If you want me to use quotes and cite sources, how about I just pull up any ol' E8 descriptions and put in red all the parts that don't fit you based on my observations of your thought processes? Would you like that? I can do that if you want.

[Radio]

I have given you the key to my critical thought process. use quotes and sources, and I will listen to you. Until then, everything that comes out of your mouth is an opinion and is completely Ti polr.

no you haven't. you've just found something to rub off your inflated ego with. it's just an excuse to be a condescending, weaselly doof.