Do you believe in God?

[Enters Laughing]

Correct. But the point I am making about Jews being under the original covenant is that we have seen time and time and time and time again when God, out of his tremendous love for the jewish people - His people - redeemed them. Therefore, you do not know if God gave a vision or a miracle or a gospel reading of Christ to any or all of those in the concentration camps prior to their death. You just don't know.

Next you will be saying that atheists and Muslims will be going to Heaven too. Maybe you'll even say this doctrine of Damnation is a charade to compel people to worship god, or that it is something invented to make god look bad.

In which case...why all this effort directed towards god? People are clearly capable of great good without god, and without fear of punishment. If believing in god means you must justify the actions of an allegedly evil god, why believe at all? Only focus on doing good things, let god sort out the rest, if he exists. Perhaps in reality, god devised this hell business so as to reward those who find it abominable, and who need evidence before they believe in something.

Anne Frank's father survived the horrors of Auschwitz by the way, and he didn't mention any such event.

[applejacks]

Next you will be saying that atheists and Muslims will be going to Heaven too. Maybe you'll even say this doctrine of Damnation is a charade to compel people to worship god, or that it is something invented to make god look bad.

In which case...why all this effort directed towards god? People are clearly capable of great good without god, and without fear of punishment. If believing in god means you must justify the actions of an allegedly evil god, why believe at all? Only focus on doing good things, let god sort out the rest, if he exists. Perhaps in reality, god devised this hell business so as to reward those who find it abominable, and who need evidence before they believe in something.

"And [Jesus] said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

I'm certain this includes jewish concentration camps.

I do not say who is or isn't in heaven. But I do say that Jesus is the way, and it is God's heart that all people have the good news proclaimed to them. The good news of free grace and salvation, freedom from shame and guilt. Freedom to love one another in humility and forgiveness and grace.

All. People.

[Enters Laughing]

"And [Jesus] said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation."

I'm certain this includes jewish concentration camps.

I do not say who is or isn't in heaven. But I do say that Jesus is the way, and it is God's heart that all people have the good news proclaimed to them. The good news of free grace and salvation, freedom from shame and guilt. Freedom to love one another in humility and forgiveness and grace.

All. People.

Do you feel comfortable with defending a god that claimed to exterminate most of the population of the Earth, and who condoned genocide, slavery, and rape, amongst other things? When would you start to think "This seems a bit wrong?"?

[applejacks]

Do you feel comfortable with defending a god that claimed to exterminate most of the population of the Earth, and who condoned genocide, slavery, and rape, amongst other things? When would you start to think "This seems a bit wrong?"?

I don't need to defend anything God has done or said.

God exterminated the whole Earth save 8 people for reasons that I can trust. The hearts of all the people were evil, continuously thinking, dwelling, and acting on evil.

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5

The point is this- our lives are short for a reason. The spirit in us is strong, but the flesh is weak. We know it to be true by the wrongful things we do and say, and yet God still loves us and wants us to be with Him for all eternity. So He has a made a way for anyone and everyone to come to Him. Free! Freely given!

[Enters Laughing]

I don't need to defend anything God has done or said.

God exterminated the whole Earth save 8 people for reasons that I can trust. The hearts of all the people were evil, continuously thinking, dwelling, and acting on evil.

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5

The point is this- our lives are short for a reason. The spirit in us is strong, but the flesh is weak. We know it to be true by the wrongful things we do and say, and yet God still loves us and wants us to be with Him for all eternity. So He has a made a way for anyone and everyone to come to Him. Free! Freely given!

I disagree. Jesus says in Scripture that each tree is known by its own fruit. If you claim to love and follow (and defend) someone who takes part in genocide, slavery, rape, and damning, then I absolutely feel you need to explain yourself. We need to move on from those times, and I think attempting to verbalise your reasons will help everybody move towards a more amenable epoch.

Further, if you justify genocide, and damnation, as you have done in this thread, you have all the more reason to defend god. Also yourself I think.

I frequently say I am shocked that we live in a world where Abrahamic religious values are "normalised". If the world was truly rational, the books of the Abrahamic religions would be banned as terrorist manuals are, and hate speech. To say that someone should would be eternally burned because they do not agree with your religious views is hate speech condoning the worst level of terrorist ideology ever imagined. Why you consider the genocidal god of the Old and New Testament to be any better than the genocidal god that justifies atrocities by Muhammad, Al-Qaeda, ISIS etc. is completely beyond me.

[applejacks]

I disagree. Jesus says in Scripture that each tree is known by its own fruit. If you claim to love and follow (and defend) someone who takes part in genocide, slavery, rape, and damning, then I absolutely feel you need to explain yourself. We need to move on from those times, and I think attempting to verbalise your reasons will help everybody move towards a more amenable epoch.

Further, if you justify genocide, and damnation, as you have done in this thread, you have all the more reason to defend god. Also yourself I think.

I frequently say I am shocked that we live in a world where Abrahamic religious values are "normalised". If the world was truly rational, the books of the Abrahamic religions would be banned as terrorist manuals are, and hate speech. To say that someone should would be eternally burned because they do not agree with your religious views is hate speech condoning the worst level of terrorist ideology ever imagined. Why you consider the genocidal god of the Old and New Testament to be any better than the genocidal god that justifies atrocities by Muhammad, Al-Qaeda, ISIS etc. is completely beyond me.

You are welcome and invited to come visit me and judge my life and thus observe my fruit.

[Enters Laughing]

You are welcome and invited to come visit me and judge my life and thus observe my fruit.

I suspect off the forum, as on the forum, you are a nice and pleasant person generally. However, I find this incongruous with your views, which, if you were a true Christian, as I believe you consider yourself to be, are fundamentally at the core of who you are. I have seen you defend genocide and the doctrine of Damnation, both undeniable evils with no justification whatsoever (I do not mean that you do did not provide any, just that there can be no justification whatsoever, in the strict meaning of the word 'justification', which would suggest an action was just at some level).

These views despite what you might say, are not at the forefront of your mind, and are not likely to be of inconvenience to others who happen to interact with you (i.e. I do not believe you will carry out any acts of genocide, rape, slavery, or Damning). I think the only danger is that it will mean these values will be "normalised" to you, and it will perhaps negatively affect how you treat others in some way, however indirectly or unintentionally, and will also mean that, as a person of faith, you will not use direct forms of thinking which are based more on sound observation and reason.

[Enters Laughing]

I don't need to defend anything God has done or said.

God exterminated the whole Earth save 8 people for reasons that I can trust. The hearts of all the people were evil, continuously thinking, dwelling, and acting on evil.

"Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Genesis 6:5

The point is this- our lives are short for a reason. The spirit in us is strong, but the flesh is weak. We know it to be true by the wrongful things we do and say, and yet God still loves us and wants us to be with Him for all eternity. So He has a made a way for anyone and everyone to come to Him. Free! Freely given!

The extermination of "evil" people wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have to suffer an eternity in hell for mortal crimes: that is the true evil, but god suffers no punishment for such an act of injustice. It also wouldn't be so bad if god had not slaughtered all the children and animals too.

By the way, of those 8 people, 4 were women. Can you name any of the 4 women who went on to be descendants of everybody living today, according to the story?

You've covered the extermination, but what about the other genocides, and the condoning of slavery and rape?

Why is that god is recorded as having killed millions of people in the bible, whereas Satan only killed about 10 people, and that was with god's permission? If you can judge a tree by its fruit, I think it is obvious which of the two is committing the most evil and injustice.

[applejacks]

The extermination of "evil" people wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have to suffer an eternity in hell for mortal crimes: that is the true evil, but god suffers no punishment for such an act of injustice. It also wouldn't be so bad if god had not slaughtered all the children and animals too.

By the way, of those 8 people, 4 were women. Can you name any of the 4 women who went on to be descendants of everybody living today, according to the story?

You've covered the extermination, but what about the other genocides, and the condoning of slavery and rape?

Why is that god is recorded as having killed millions of people in the bible, whereas Satan only killed about 10 people, and that was with god's permission? If you can judge a tree by its fruit, I think it is obvious which of the two is committing the most evil and injustice.

ive answered your questions with quotes from the Bible directly. However your points are statements without any context. Can you provide direct Bible passages that defend your case that God is pro slavery and rape? And then perhaps I can understand what leads you to believe such things.

[mu4]

ive answered your questions with quotes from the Bible directly. However your points are statements without any context. Can you provide direct Bible passages that defend your case that God is pro slavery and rape? And then perhaps I can understand what leads you to believe such things.

I'm not sure I want any quotes from the bible, but can you provide any proof that the bible is true and that I'm going to hell? Because I'm not sure it's necessary to look at the bible for these things and there can be contradictory things in a book like the bible which is written by man.

The question isn't what's in the bible but what is true.

And the truth as far as I can tell from reading the book of the world as I've experienced it is that we can love with or without god, we can do good things with or without religion, and the bad as well.

The bible's story does not seem to ring true compared to the story I've experienced and the story of many individuals who have experienced similar narratives and it's not the narrative of a few people writing into a book that says I'm going to hell, but by billions of people who've lived and loved and sinned as well.

You read this book too every day, thru your own personal experiences and it tries to tell you the truth thru the lies that arise in our ignorance and many fallibility.

I ask you?

Am I damned? Can people love sincerely without believing? Can people be forgiven without believing?

I do not desire your answers from the bible, but if you will offer something deeper something that comes from that well of decency you have, something that may take sometime for the real answer to arise. I hope to hear it one day.

[Enters Laughing]

ive answered your questions with quotes from the Bible directly. However your points are statements without any context. Can you provide direct Bible passages that defend your case that God is pro slavery and rape? And then perhaps I can understand what leads you to believe such things.

Numbers 31:15-18

12 Then they brought the captives, the booty, and the spoil to Moses, to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the children of Israel, to the camp in the plains of Moab by the Jordan, across from Jericho. 13 And Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the congregation, went to meet them outside the camp. 14 But Moses was angry with the officers of the army, with the captains over thousands and captains over hundreds, who had come from the battle.

15 And Moses said to them: “Have you kept all the women alive? 16 Look, these women caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the Lord in the incident of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. 18 But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

28 “If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days.

Genesis 9:24-27

Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him. 25 Then he said:

“Cursed be Canaan;
A servant of servants
He shall be to his brethren.”
26 And he said:

“Blessed be the Lord,
The God of Shem,
And may Canaan be his servant.
27 May God enlarge Japheth,
And may he dwell in the tents of Shem;
And may Canaan be his servant.”

Genesis 16:6-9

So Abram said to Sarai, “Indeed your maid is in your hand; do to her as you please.” And when Sarai dealt harshly with her, she fled from her presence.

7 Now the Angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And He said, “Hagar, Sarai’s maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?”

She said, “I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai.”

9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.”

Genesis 17:9-13

9 And God said to Abraham: “As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; 11 and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised[...]

Genesis 24:35-36

34 So he said, “I am Abraham’s servant. 35 The Lord has blessed my master greatly, and he has become great; and He has given him flocks and herds, silver and gold, male and female servants, and camels and donkeys.

Exodus 20:17

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Exodus 21:20-21

20 If a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.

Leviticus 19:20

20 ‘Whoever lies carnally with a woman who is betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; but they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Leviticus 25:44-46

And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have—from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14

10 “When you go near a city to fight against it, then proclaim an offer of peace to it. 11 And it shall be that if they accept your offer of peace, and open to you, then all the people who are found in it shall be placed under tribute to you, and serve you. 12 Now if the city will not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the Lord your God delivers it into your hands, you shall strike every male in it with the edge of the sword. 14 But the women, the little ones, the livestock, and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall plunder for yourself; and you shall eat the enemies’ plunder which the Lord your God gives you.

Luke 12:46-48

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

1 Corinthians 7:17-24

17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches. 18 Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called. 21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. 22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.

Ephesians 6:1-6

1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: 3 “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.”

4 And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord.

5 Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.

Colossians 3:18

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Colossians 3:20

Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.

Colossians 3:22

Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.

Colossians 4:1

Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

1 Timothy 6:1-5

Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed. 2 And those who have believing masters, let them not despise them because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved. Teach and exhort these things.

[Jeremy8419]

Do you feel comfortable with defending a god that claimed to exterminate most of the population of the Earth, and who condoned genocide, slavery, and rape, amongst other things? When would you start to think "This seems a bit wrong?"?

Maybe he did it on purpose for contrast between testaments.

Maybe it's so you can relate when you go from Ti to Fi?

Maybe he told someone in 1000BC to make all that stuff up to root out the real beliebers from the sunny-day wannabe's?

You can logic all the ways that God must surely not be moral nor Christian nor Abrahamic, yet you cannot logic all the ways that it must surely be so? Objective reality is the same either way. The only difference is the underlying belief which drives your logic. You want to believe such, so those are the bridges you build, and what you don't believe are the bridges you break.

More Weight! I mean... More wood!