Why do SLEs/ESTps have to dominate?

[betterthandead]

Why do ESTPs have to dominate?

[Darkstar]

Give examples. NOW!

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Dominate how so? Sexually? Politically? Spiritually? Many SLEs try to dominate, but they are bad at it. SLEs don't control the world... though they like to think they do, I guess. Doesn't everybody think like that? We all have fantasies where we're more powerful, where people listen to us. Where everything goes our way but we can still be surprised and awed at the same time.

They move physical objects around easily () and have a great sense of their physical environment and where physical objects are in relation to one other. This actually has nothing to do with dominance per se. You might be surprised at how sensitive & whiny SLEs can be. How easily swayed they are by mere emotion. IEIs are their duals, after all.

SLEs can be a victim of rape folks, they ain't just the rapists. It's true! =p

[Satan]

Dominate how so? Sexually? Politically? Spiritually? Many SLEs try to dominate, but they are bad at it. SLEs don't control the world... though they like to think they do, I guess. Doesn't everybody think like that? We all have fantasies where we're more powerful, where people listen to us. Where everything goes our way but we can still be surprised and awed at the same time.

They move physical objects around easily () and have a great sense of their physical environment and where physical objects are in relation to one other. This actually has nothing to do with dominance per se. You might be surprised at how sensitive & whiny SLEs can be. How easily swayed they are by mere emotion. IEIs are their duals, after all.

SLEs can be a victim of rape folks, they ain't just the rapists. It's true! =p

God make it stop. I can't stand any more whining! GET A BACK BONE.

[Blaze]

i think they dominate the attention of groups more than anything else. if you can influence them in favor of your interests, they will champion for you, as long as they get the credit and the attention.

to answer the question of why do they do this....because they have a rather large ego which needs to be fed. no offense.

[smccosker]

not always, we can stay in the shadows as well. depends on our mood and what social dominance might bring us, otherwise i just might leave and do my own thing

[XoX]

Why do ESTPs have to dominate?

One word: feaaaaaaar. They fear others are plotting against them. Plotting to dominate THEM. They can't stand the idea of being dominated. They feel like they have to act first and grab the power and the resources. That makes them feel safer. But they never feel completely safe. So they need to grab more and more...it is a never ending cycle. Only the sweet words from an INFp can make them feel safe. Make them feel loved. Like a child. But only for a short moment because they know that the words are not real but just an illusion created by the INFp. Illusion that will soon break. Still they yearn to hear those words. That is the only thing that can stop their power grabbing mania. Make the fear go away. Even if only for a short moment.

[discojoe]

Why do ESTPs have to dominate?

[XoX]

I find that answer to be too shallow. It doesn't explain how being aware of external statics of objects leads to need for domination. Perhaps being more aware of your immediate surroundings than most others around you leads to a certain sense of superiority and this leads to a "because I can" attitude.

[Blaze]

not always, we can stay in the shadows as well. depends on our mood and what social dominance might bring us, otherwise i just might leave and do my own thing

true....but SLE only stays in the shadows at first...until they feel they have correctly assessed the power structure. then it's all about them. again, no offense.

[redbaron]

true....but SLE only stays in the shadows at first...until they feel they have correctly assessed the power structure. then it's all about them. again, no offense.

hey, you're allowed. you were married to one.

[discojoe]

I find that answer to be too shallow. It doesn't explain how being aware of external statics of objects leads to need for domination. Perhaps being more aware of your immediate surroundings than most others around you leads to a certain sense of superiority and this leads to a "because I can" attitude.

So a group of only ESTps wouldn't feel the need to dominate each other?

[Not A Communist Shill]

ESTps have a sense of immediacy and a need to sort things into how they should be sorted...perhaps.

[07490]

true....but SLE only stays in the shadows at first...until they feel they have correctly assessed the power structure. then it's all about them. again, no offense.

i think i can concur with that.

[lefty]

ESTps have a sense of immediacy and a need to sort things into how they should be sorted...perhaps.

yeah an expeditor

[lefty]

i think any speculation about what motivates the dominant subtype could be interesting. me being part of that victim dominant spectrum of subtypes.

i wonder, too, if we don't contain all functions in greater and lesser level of being conscious just like with the functions.

for example a dominant would be maybe

Dominant
Victim
Infantile
Caretaker

vs. Victim:

Victim
Dominant
Caretaker
Infantile

I'm sure you could develop a test and test people's level of each and then look at each person more individually to be accurate rather than assuming that the layout of each of those preferances is across the board for each type. Same as you can guage with the function preferances if you score it. Some people are more a little more closely extroverted and introverted others are on the border for sensing vs. intuition etc.

[XoX]

So a group of only ESTps wouldn't feel the need to dominate each other?

My first attempt at explanation (which was based on fear driven behavior) works better in this situation. They would fear each other and thus try to establish dominance for security reasons.

As a somewhat unrelated idea, I think a group of ESTps would establish a mafia style hierarchy where there exists a clear chain of command, clear rules of acceptable behavior, and great respect for each other but the moment you show weakness your status drops and someone will take your position in the hierarchy. You would have to compete for your position 24 hours a day.

[misutii]

Why do ESTPs have to dominate?

because

a) they can be quite cynical and distrustful of others, hence don't trust others to dominate

b) dominating gives them something to do, if they have nothing to do they get anxiety

[Blaze]

My first attempt at explanation (which was based on fear driven behavior) works better in this situation. They would fear each other and thus try to establish dominance for security reasons.

As a somewhat unrelated idea, I think a group of ESTps would establish a mafia style hierarchy where there exists a clear chain of command, clear rules of acceptable behavior, and great respect for each other but the moment you show weakness your status drops and someone will take your position in the hierarchy. You would have to compete for your position 24 hours a day.

yeah. totally.

[Blaze]

because

a) they can be quite cynical and distrustful of others, hence don't trust others to dominate

b) dominating gives them something to do, if they have nothing to do they get anxiety

they are anxious. they hide it well, but yeah they are anxious. ILE is also anxious......i think it must go with the territory of EP temperament.

[Reuben]

Seriously. I can't remember what this whole thing is ... oh the question as to why ESTp's have to dominate?

I can't remember the answer either but it has got a lot to do with saucers.

The kind that's used to contain milk. There's also a lot of talk about the flying subtype lately but that has got more to do with abduction than domination.

Ciao.

[Ezra]

God make it stop. I can't stand any more whining! GET A BACK BONE.

Awww, he's just expressing himself.

I find that answer to be too shallow. It doesn't explain how being aware of external statics of objects leads to need for domination.

discojoe's explanation wasn't shallow; it was terse. And correct. If you know what Se is, the answer should be a slap in the face unless you're a complete idiot who can't really comprehend socionics, in which case you should just stop attempting to learn about it now.

Perhaps being more aware of your immediate surroundings than most others around you leads to a certain sense of superiority and this leads to a "because I can" attitude.

Interesting idea, actually. You may be right. I've gained this kind of insight of the way people operate within society and how they interact with one another, and I've decided that I can achieve a high position within the social hierarchy by conducting myself in a certain way. See, this bullshit about SLEs needing rules to abide by; no, that is not how we operate. We recognise that there already is a hierarchy within society that we must work with in order to conquer it. This is fundamentally where SEEs fail. They seem to think you can just achieve top spot by dancing around with Se and Fi; they fail to recognise the forces at work effectively, because of their Ti PoLR. This is why they have a problem with being in a hierarchy; they can't see the use of it. SLEs, on the other hand, instinctively recognise that it is a necessary evil to ass-lick etc.

When I think of a dominating SLE, I think of Enneagram type 8s or 3s...I would look into those fixations for the motivation to dominate...achievement, power. Of course there are other angles to look at with other E types as well. I am sure not all SLEs are dominant in the same way.

I still don't understand how or why a Three would be an SLE. I mean, superficially, it quite easily looks like they could be. But when you get to the core of the SLE, it seems ridiculous to consider their being a Three.

[XoX]

discojoe's explanation wasn't shallow; it was terse. And correct. If you know what Se is

Answering the question with a symbol of is not factually incorrect but it is not explaining much and easily leads to circular thinking.

Q: Why are ESTps dominating?
A: Because of

Q: How do you know ESTps have strong ?
A: Because they are dominating

It is basically just a reference to definition of . A high level abstract symbol. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't help to create new understanding. It is more like a reminder.

For example I would like to know why being aware of external statics of objects leads to dominance where being aware of external dynamics of objects doesn't. Well it does in a way but in a very different way. The difference is interesting. Both often are enneagram 8 but different kind of 8s.

the answer should be a slap in the face unless you're a complete idiot who can't really comprehend socionics, in which case you should just stop attempting to learn about it now.

Edit: the pic was blocked so I removed the link

See, this bullshit about SLEs needing rules to abide by; no, that is not how we operate. We recognise that there already is a hierarchy within society that we must work with in order to conquer it. This is fundamentally where SEEs fail. They seem to think you can just achieve top spot by dancing around with Se and Fi; they fail to recognise the forces at work effectively, because of their Ti PoLR. This is why they have a problem with being in a hierarchy; they can't see the use of it.

So SLEs seek to be on top of hierarchy and SEEs seek to be on top of people (a pun intended). The question is: why do you personally seek to be on top of a hierarchy? What's your main motivator? What's there waiting for you?

I still don't understand how or why a Three would be an SLE. I mean, superficially, it quite easily looks like they could be. But when you get to the core of the SLE, it seems ridiculous to consider their being a Three.

SLEs, on the other hand, instinctively recognise that it is a necessary evil to ass-lick etc.

I can see there are some tendencies toward enneagram 3.

[xyz]

Well for all this beta bashing, which I agree with () let me just say the Se ego's definitely have their uses. Not too bad of a folk.

[Ezra]

Q: How do you know ESTps have strong ?
A: Because they are dominating

Q: How do you know ESTps have strong ?
A: Because Model A says so.

Case closed. Move on to more important things. Like eunice.

For example I would like to know why being aware of external statics of objects leads to dominance where being aware of external dynamics of objects doesn't.

External dynamics of objects refers to Te. Read about Te, and you'll see why "dominance" is not an issue.



Yeah, I see a lot of those tripod images lurking over the net.

So SLEs seek to be on top of hierarchy and SEEs seek to be on top of people (a pun intended). The question is: why do you personally seek to be on top of a hierarchy? What's your main motivator? What's there waiting for you?

lol

Power, power, and more power. Power is a drive. Part of the human condition.

[Darkstar]

power power bla bla bla bla

[HollywoodWanderer]

Why do ESTPs have to dominate?

There can be many reasons for any behavior but, I think that they have been the victims of violations of their "selves" at a young age and so they tend to behave this way later in life with others.

[Ezra]

power power bla bla bla bla

Fuck off, you useless piece of shit.

There can be many reasons for any behavior but, I think that they have been the victims of violations of their "selves" at a young age and so they tend to behave this way later in life with others.

Yeah, you're probably right. Especially if they're an Eight. Like me!

[Darkstar]

haha bring it fatty

no no sorry I don't mean to hurt your feelings or anything zhukov. I'm just playing around with you,

I think that power is mentioned so often with SLE's and it never really gets explained.

[redbaron]

I think that power is mentioned so often with SLE's and it never really gets explained.

well I think it's basically the desire to be in charge, in control, right? To be the one calling the shots. And if you're IEI like me, that's exactly what you need.

[machintruc]

Not all SLE's feel the need to dominate.

S-D+ and S0D+ SLE's may feel such need, but S+D+ SLE's usually don't, because S+ people act either non-directive, or directive on specific purposes.

SLE's feel the need to dominate, just as EII's or LIE's.

The thing that is true is that SLE's are preoccupied by others' fitness, which is traditionally a dominant trait.

[Ezra]

haha bring it fatty

no no sorry I don't mean to hurt your feelings or anything zhukov. I'm just playing around with you,

I think that power is mentioned so often with SLE's and it never really gets explained.

Hahaha.

lol @ "hurting my feelings"

It is true; power has become almost synonymous with Se leading. But the thing is, a lot of the literature regarding SEEs and SLEs is written by and for people who have read about Se leading; who have understood what it means to be Se leading. Personally, I think the most comprehensive descriptions of Se can be found on wikisocion. Other than that, you have Rick's quality but virus-infested (for some reason) site socionics.us, which basically outlines what Augusta made of each of the functions. Her Se description is generally very revealing. Give it a look if you haven't done already (but make sure you have AVG 8.0 installed or something like that .

[XoX]

Q: How do you know ESTps have strong ?
A: Because Model A says so.

Well, that's true in a trivial way but again it doesn't offer much information. At least not in the format I process it. I think you show more preference for style thinking than I do. Not sure but that's how it seems to me. Perhaps I am not valuing or I just have weak and I need to adjust myself a bit.

Case closed. Move on to more important things. Like eunice.

The only thing closed is your mind. And perhaps this thread. I don't know much anything about eunice. I have always doubted that she is not INFj but lately she has been putting more effort into proving that. Perhaps one day I change my mind. Perhaps not.

External dynamics of objects refers to Te. Read about Te, and you'll see why "dominance" is not an issue.

Eh. Why don't you explain it if you have already read and understood it?

Yeah, I see a lot of those tripod images lurking over the net.

I was suspecting that it will be blocked. Well, it is your loss as it was a cute picture of your dual.

The question is: why do you personally seek to be on top of a hierarchy? What's your main motivator? What's there waiting for you?

Power, power, and more power. Power is a drive. Part of the human condition.

Again, this doesn't explain anything really. What are you going to do with that power? Do you have any kind of plans on how to use that power. Any kind of "cause" or "agenda"? Or perhaps it is true that you seek to do nothing with it. For me power has two values: tool value and security value. It makes you feel more secure and it can be used to further different agendas that you otherwise couldn't. Seeking power for power's sake seems corrupted and short sighted.

Anyways, how do you define power? What's the relation between money and power?

[Ezra]

Well, that's true in a trivial way but again it doesn't offer much information. At least not in the format I process it. I think you show more preference for style thinking than I do. Not sure but that's how it seems to me. Perhaps I am not valuing or I just have weak and I need to adjust myself a bit.

To appreciate my response, you have to understand Model A; that is, each and every function in its leading position. Even I'm not quite there yet.

The only thing closed is your mind.

To you, yes. To me, there are far more closed-minded people, and I have just the right amount of close-mindedness to avoid being a) a dogmatic bastard like Phaedrus and b) a wishy-washy indecisive (and thus, weak) person like... you, dare I say? Okay, maybe not you, but I'm sure I'd find someone on this site who fits the bill for b). Like lucaswinfield.

Eh. Why don't you explain it if you have already read and understood it?

Because I'm sick and tired of lazy bastards expecting me to relay to them all this shit about socionics which they - if they're truly interested in it - should be reading about and researching it themselves.

I was suspecting that it will be blocked. Well, it is your loss as it was a cute picture of your dual.

Damn. I always appreciate a snap of the beautiful species known as the Intuitive Ethical Introverts.

Again, this doesn't explain anything really. What are you going to do with that power?

We're going to mould your ass into the perfect citizen.

Do you have any kind of plans on how to use that power. Any kind of "cause" or "agenda"?

Yes. It would be to the benefit of the people of the state I rule. However, this is completely unrealistic. The network of Old Etonians is beyond me. So, my power is limited to myself, or to an organisation or firm I will take charge of.

[/quote]Or perhaps it is true that you seek to do nothing with it. For me power has two values: tool value and security value. It makes you feel more secure and it can be used to further different agendas that you otherwise couldn't. Seeking power for power's sake seems corrupted and short sighted.[/quote]

Yes, I agree. Someone who does this is a fool, because it never lasts, and produces no positive effect. It's about greed. Truly good leaders pursue power because of its benefit to the people said leaders take under their wings.

Anyways, how do you define power? What's the relation between money and power?

Money, for me, is a gateway to power. I think the definition of power differs from individual to individual. I'm not so much concerned with having power over others as I am with securing my own power. However, in order to secure my own power, I need power over others, so I'll do anything to gain power over myself, as I am fundamentally driven by a self-preservationist mentality, as should any wise individual. My definition of power is essentially the freedom - or the power (lulz!!1) - to determine something.

[FDG]

Ezra, please, you're truly laughable when you say blah blah blah, I want power blah blah blah. Why don't you cut the BS!!!

[discojoe]

Ezra, please, you're truly laughable when you say blah blah blah, I want power blah blah blah. Why don't you cut the BS!!!

Shut up.

[FDG]

Shut up.

There's no reason to, so I won't.

[discojoe]

There's no reason to, so I won't.

No hay motivo para que lo haga, asi que no lo haré.

[XoX]

To appreciate my response, you have to understand Model A; that is, each and every function in its leading position. Even I'm not quite there yet.

I place this somewhere between annoying and amusing.

To you, yes. To me, there are far more closed-minded people, and I have just the right amount of close-mindedness to avoid being a) a dogmatic bastard like Phaedrus and b) a wishy-washy indecisive (and thus, weak) person like... you, dare I say? Okay, maybe not you, but I'm sure I'd find someone on this site who fits the bill for b). Like lucaswinfield.

There is no need to make references to people who are unrelated to this thread.

Anyways, I find it interesting that you ask for my permission to call me wishy-washy weak. Perhaps you are just being polite. In any case your observation of indecisiveness is historically speaking true. It seems I can only become decisive when I am put in a tight situation where decisiveness happens "automatically". When I have time to think I become indecisive. This is why I need to learn to risk myself more. It is sad that I only now understand it. So much valuable time wasted. Perhaps I am enneagram 6 in the end. I need to break out of my habbits. It is better to do that late than never. There is still a lot of useful time left. It feels like I am just getting started. I am sure that as more time passes by I can keep improving my decision making skills. I need to be with people who a) put pressure on me and force me to make decisions or b) require me to make their decisions because they themselves feel week in that area. That is how I can improve. I cannot improve myself without the help of others in this area.

Because I'm sick and tired of lazy bastards expecting me to relay to them all this shit about socionics which they - if they're truly interested in it - should be reading about and researching it themselves.

So what do you see as the function of this forum then if not sharing information? To me your answer seems like you just don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps this is just some dominance game or something. Perhaps I don't understand and you actually do have good knowledge about the subject. But if is this internal then what use is it to others?

Damn. I always appreciate a snap of the beautiful species known as the Intuitive Ethical Introverts.

It was an anime character. Dunno if you like them. They all look like NFs to me. Particularly IEIs.

Or perhaps it is true that you seek to do nothing with it. For me power has two values: tool value and security value. It makes you feel more secure and it can be used to further different agendas that you otherwise couldn't. Seeking power for power's sake seems corrupted and short sighted.

Yes, I agree. Someone who does this is a fool, because it never lasts, and produces no positive effect. It's about greed. Truly good leaders pursue power because of its benefit to the people said leaders take under their wings.

I am very happy that you understand the temporary nature of power. This is why it has no value unless it is used to produce something...let's say...less temporary.

Money, for me, is a gateway to power. I think the definition of power differs from individual to individual. I'm not so much concerned with having power over others as I am with securing my own power. However, in order to secure my own power, I need power over others, so I'll do anything to gain power over myself, as I am fundamentally driven by a self-preservationist mentality, as should any wise individual. My definition of power is essentially the freedom - or the power (lulz!!1) - to determine something.

What is "self-preservationist mentality"? Is this a reference to enneagram? But to your definition...freedom to determine something. That's an interesting definition. A mortal can never have too much power then. But still the freedom to determine something in the sandbox you are forced to play in is something worth pursuing.

As a side note, I think I will warm up to your humor more after I learn to know which part is humor/game and when you are being dead serious.

[Ezra]

Ezra, please, you're truly laughable when you say blah blah blah, I want power blah blah blah. Why don't you cut the BS!!!

This just made me laugh. After comments like this, I can actually see why Se HA makes sense for you.

So what do you see as the function of this forum then if not sharing information?

Ideas, yes. But the information about socionics that you need to learn about before you can participate in sharing ideas should be read independently. It's like someone debating football when they have no clue what the fuck they're talking about. You need to read the rules before you can debate it with someone.

To me your answer seems like you just don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps this is just some dominance game or something. Perhaps I don't understand and you actually do have good knowledge about the subject. But if is this internal then what use is it to others?

Ti isn't "internal" as such. What it is is an internal process. Obviously, all products of any process must be expressed externally if they are to be expressed at all. In the case of a Ti adept individual, Ti manifests itself as something which one experiences internally then demonstrates to the world. For example, take an LSI lawyer. Internally, they're thinking "this is the law, and it should be followed". Externally, they're saying "follow this law" to people, because they want people to act in this way.

It was an anime character. Dunno if you like them. They all look like NFs to me. Particularly IEIs.

Oh yeah, the so-called "IEI" of animé. They do it with "SLEs" as well. It's ridiculous. They're not SLEs at all. They're just stereotypical bullshit.

I am very happy that you understand the temporary nature of power. This is why it has no value unless it is used to produce something...let's say...less temporary.

...Such as?

I'm sorry your Si/Ne valuing mind can't get your head round the value of Se... It's just one of those things.

What is "self-preservationist mentality"? Is this a reference to enneagram?

It's nothing to do with the Enneagram in this context. I'm talking about human beings' desire for their security; each individual's concern for oneself being top priority.

As a side note, I think I will warm up to your humor more after I learn to know which part is humor/game and when you are being dead serious.

Yeah, I think a lot of people still have to grasp my sense of humour. It's definitely an acquired taste, and not everyone will acquire it. Interesting, though, how different things I say appeal to different people's sense of humour.