My INFj sister is like a grumpy old man

[Raver]

Hey kid, get off my lawn! *shakes fist*

Seriously though, I think the irrational deltas are probably more carefree. Also, the idea of Delta fun is more subdued then Beta fun so Betas having fun tend to come across as too strong from my pov and other Deltas as well imo.

[Raver]

Yeah, I think my sister can only really take me in small amounts, haha. She's playful in her own way, but I think she often sees me as too pushy and intense at times. She just gets so grumpy about it though... it makes me feel like this:

I see, you mentioned your mom is IEE. I wonder if this happens with her as well because if it doesn't then it could just be some IxxP/IxxJ conflict coming into play. As for my SLE brothers, I find their sense of humor too campy for my liking and they find my sense of humor odd so we either conflict or end up indifferent as a result.

[FDG]

Idk Starfall I think you sometimes come across as kind of boastful about your body, lifestyle, etc. so yeah. I can somewhat understand her grumpiness. But, perhaps your way is the right way - I mean, after all, YOLO so why not be boastful?

[Radio]

that's funny, my IEI friend thinks i'm too intense and pushy.

[willekeurig]

Ha, my best friend is IEI and I guess we both perceive each other's level of pushiness / intensity to be just perfect. At least we agree we are better than most of our lame friends who never want to go on weird adventures like we do.

oh, wow, new smilies!

[InvisibleJim]

Perhaps I'm just a grumpy eii.

grump
grump
sulk
grump

[InvisibleJim]

My sister gets annoyed with me in a different way, though. It's more about what I physically do or joke about that irritates her.

Have you had your blood tested to see if you are a descendant of Genghis Khan?!

You could conquer Asia if it turns out to be true.

[InvisibleJim]

Either that, or down syndrome.

Sounds like a valid reason to conquer Asia to me.

[Kim]

Beta NFs can make me uncomfortable when I feel they are intrusive (for some reason I have a harder time with female NFs, but that might be because most of my beta experiences have been with those damn charming IEI push-pull bastards whom I will love until the day I die...). I really hate it when they try to talk me into doing something I don't want to do or when they throw Fe at me to cheer me up. Or when they want me to talk about very personal (or what I perceive as such) things or feelings (heaven help!) or when they feel all sorry for me or tell me that they love me, etc. I often feel there is too much attempt at psychological closeness and bonding? I think...? And to be very honest, part of this is probably because beta NFs make me feel like an awkward lame bore. Your exuberance would bother me because I wish I could let loose like that sometimes.

I don't have this at all even with the most boisterous Se-SEEs who can be pushy also, but it's different. They can sense how far they can go and when to stop or change direction.

[wacey]

@dolphin,

Your post was one of the most insightful things I have read on the16types.info for a long time. I find your grasp on the subject to be incredible, and you write so eloquently and clearly. I agree with 95% of what you say, thank-you very much for sharing those perceptions and experiences.

[Scapegrace]

I sound like Fireyed's sister and Kim. Why didn't I figure out that I'm EII before?

(I really am a curmudgeon though. I would probably drive Starfall insane.)

[Introspector]

I always thought it was an enneagram thing ,Reactive vs Withdrawn ,from my experience with an E-6 ISTp and an e-5 ISTp ,both were delta, both ISTp.

is the sister e9 by any chance?

irl i am also one to "distance" myself from overly reactive people lol ,as far as consistent relationships go (work / living together)

but that said its probably a very complicated topic that crosses over to a neurological level

Here is an article that explains the background of emotional repression well

Repression of Emotions
Repression of emotions is one of the major causes of addictions, abuse, depression, and
disease in our culture. In many families, emotions are either repressed or expressed in abusive
ways. When children indicate a feeling of anger, the parent may punish them or shame them into
repressing it. “Go to your room until you can act like a lady,” is a common response. This shames
the child and makes him/her feel rejected. A healthier response would be to help the child identify
the feeling and to release it. “I see you’re feeling angry, let’s go and punch your punching bag.”
Another common response of parents that leads to repression and confusion is denial of the
feelings. Whatever the child says they may be feeling, such as angry, sad, or scared, the response
of the parent is, “Oh no, you’re not feeling that,” or “Be a big boy now and stop that!” The child
then learns to mistrust their own perceptions and repress what they feel. Children look around at
the older people in their lives and their mental video camera records what they see for use later
on. So they may see their mother using food or tranquilizers to numb her feelings, their father
drinking alcohol, an older brother smoking pot or a sister smoking cigarettes. When this child
begins to feel his or her own stress, they use one of these coping strategies to numb their own
emotions. This is how addictions begin in our lives.
In the diagram, you can see that repression of feelings will lead to many serious
complications. Millions of Americans take anti-depressant drugs because our whole society has
been taught to repress feelings with drugs. The popular drug Prozak was originally supposed to be
prescribed for a course of six months, to be used only in conjunction with psychotherapy. Now it
is given out like candy for indefinite periods of time and the therapy recommendation has been
long forgotten. When children see this medical model as a role model, then it is obvious why drug
addictions are rampant among our youth. Many people are taught to repress their feelings by
being shamed for having feelings. The expression “Shame on you” is very common when a child
expresses anger. So we are consistently made to feel that our angry feelings (for girls) and our sad
or scared feelings (for boys) are shameful. It is extremely unhealthy the way males in our culture
have been systematically shamed for their soft tender feelings. This has led to the majority of men
in our culture having a very difficult time crying and expressing their grief. I have worked with
many men who were easily able to cry during the hypnotherapy and thanked me profusely. Many
have said they’ve never been able to cry as adults. One man told me he couldn’t even cry at his
own mother’s funeral. This has also led to many stress-related symptoms, such as heart attacks
and strokes. In Louise Hay’s book You Can Heal Your Life, she states that heart attacks are often
related to unexpressed grief!
When people repress their emotions, there is a tendency to use passive aggression as a way of
expressing them. This results in a person who may express his/her anger indirectly, which is
called passive aggression. These can be people who smile to your face and then stab you in the
back. A common expression in our culture which reflects this concept is, “I don’t get mad, I get
even!” I would much rather experience healthy direct expression of anger than a continual
indirect attack.


The main article is here

[Iris]

Wacey said it before I got to. That was so helpful and insightful. Your post is a wonderful gift to betas and deltas.

[willekeurig]

I grew up with TWO Delta introverts!! Girllll I feel ya. I've have thought before that their personalities have been affected by their critical/chaotic upbringings, but regardless, all they want to do in life is exist in a peaceful bubble. People have commented before when coming to our house that it is sooo peaceful and they get such good sleep, etc, and I feel that too - except it is really frustrating because it feels like nothing moves once you pull up in the driveway. There's trees and an orchard and a badass solar shower and amazing Si woodwork and NOTHING MOVES. NOTHING CHANGES.

I can actually get along with them and up until recently have gotten along with them because I know what they want to hear. You basically just have to tell them what they want to hear. Talking about details. Lots of details. Details, details, details. Miniscule details. Then go on a rant about the details.

You have to understand Delta's can't change their personal values even if they wanted to. They're just perpetually stuck in this rigid mindset and they complain because it is venting the constant inner pressure. They're extremely hard on themselves and especially in the introverts this tends to manifest in weird ways.

This is so much like my parents. Who are betas.

I don't know. Maybe there are some fresh perspectives Socionics can provide you with that will help you understand your sister, but be careful you don't focus on her "type" too much and unwittingly turn your communication problems into a self-fulfilling prophecy. One of my oldest and dearest friend is IEI, and I'm EII and it works just fine. People actually often ask if we're a couple because we're so close. There are many important factors outside of Socionics that affect our relationship, and in the end I think we are much more alike than not.

I sometimes shut myself off the way you describe your sister does, but more often than not it doesn't have to do with me disliking intense behaviour per se. It's usually that the person has hit a sore spot of some sort, and it's the content that makes me uncomfortable, not the form. I'll try to think of ad example.. the named IEI tried to get me to wear weird spicy clothes and make stupid poses with her, but I started feeling super awkward and shied away solely because I'm uncomfortable about my looks. I believe an outside observer could well have judged me as rigid or timid based on that incident, while this is not the case at all. The previous week she had had me wear a rubber mask that looked like an old junkie and dance on the streets and shout at people and I was enjoying every moment of it. Not saying your sister's behaviour in particular situations couldn't be "because of her type" (whatever that means), but keep your mind open to other possible explanations, too.

[Kim]

To be honest, I could relate to your sister walking out of the room. I am assuming that she does this while you are comforted by someone else (as in, she know you are not alone)?

When someone is showing strong emotions (through crying for example), I feel a bit helpless. Sometimes I think I am not good at finding comforting words because my go-to reaction is to find solutions to ease the situation. However, this is not what a beta wants or needs in that situation. I wouldn't walk out of the room, but I can at least relate to the discomfort. Any boisterous display of emotion, even positive ones, make me feel a bit awkward. When you are "too happy," I feel awkward and boring and when you are "too sad," I feel awkward and helpless. If you come to me with a problem and want to talk, I am in my element.

Dolphin, I was going to respond to the post you deleted just to say I agree. I don't get betas much of the time. Too many intense emotions and attempts to include me in this atmosphere. I am quite happy to hang out as long as I am allowed to observe and remain myself, but as soon as I am expected to laugh as loudly or dance as crazily, I want to hide under a rock.

[InvisibleJim]

I didn't really see dolphin's post as constructive. I honestly thought it was an excessively long emotional regurgitation of untrue stereotypes. At least half the stuff attributed to either Beta or Delta could be explained by other things. And I don't believe a long post with a lot of words should be confused with having something to say.

It all sounded pretty true to me after many years of living with the collective and individual failures of the delta quadra.

[Beautiful sky]

I would not describe myself as grumpy. Reflective, sometimes sad and reserved, but not grumpy.

[InvisibleJim]

I would describe myself as grumpy. Sad and reserved, but not grumpy.

My diaphragm hurts.

[Beautiful sky]

My diaphragm hurts.

oh,

I meant to say that I would NOT describe myself as grumpy.

[Iris]

I always thought it was an enneagram thing ,Reactive vs Withdrawn ,from my experience with an E-6 ISTp and an e-5 ISTp ,both were delta, both ISTp.

is the sister e9 by any chance?

irl i am also one to "distance" myself from overly reactive people lol ,as far as consistent relationships go (work / living together)

but that said its probably a very complicated topic that crosses over to a neurological level

Here is an article that explains the background of emotional repression well

Repression of Emotions
Repression of emotions is one of the major causes of addictions, abuse, depression, and
disease in our culture. In many families, emotions are either repressed or expressed in abusive
ways. When children indicate a feeling of anger, the parent may punish them or shame them into
repressing it. “Go to your room until you can act like a lady,” is a common response. This shames
the child and makes him/her feel rejected. A healthier response would be to help the child identify
the feeling and to release it. “I see you’re feeling angry, let’s go and punch your punching bag.”
Another common response of parents that leads to repression and confusion is denial of the
feelings. Whatever the child says they may be feeling, such as angry, sad, or scared, the response
of the parent is, “Oh no, you’re not feeling that,” or “Be a big boy now and stop that!” The child
then learns to mistrust their own perceptions and repress what they feel. Children look around at
the older people in their lives and their mental video camera records what they see for use later
on. So they may see their mother using food or tranquilizers to numb her feelings, their father
drinking alcohol, an older brother smoking pot or a sister smoking cigarettes. When this child
begins to feel his or her own stress, they use one of these coping strategies to numb their own
emotions. This is how addictions begin in our lives.
In the diagram, you can see that repression of feelings will lead to many serious
complications. Millions of Americans take anti-depressant drugs because our whole society has
been taught to repress feelings with drugs. The popular drug Prozak was originally supposed to be
prescribed for a course of six months, to be used only in conjunction with psychotherapy. Now it
is given out like candy for indefinite periods of time and the therapy recommendation has been
long forgotten. When children see this medical model as a role model, then it is obvious why drug
addictions are rampant among our youth. Many people are taught to repress their feelings by
being shamed for having feelings. The expression “Shame on you” is very common when a child
expresses anger. So we are consistently made to feel that our angry feelings (for girls) and our sad
or scared feelings (for boys) are shameful. It is extremely unhealthy the way males in our culture
have been systematically shamed for their soft tender feelings. This has led to the majority of men
in our culture having a very difficult time crying and expressing their grief. I have worked with
many men who were easily able to cry during the hypnotherapy and thanked me profusely. Many
have said they’ve never been able to cry as adults. One man told me he couldn’t even cry at his
own mother’s funeral. This has also led to many stress-related symptoms, such as heart attacks
and strokes. In Louise Hay’s book You Can Heal Your Life, she states that heart attacks are often
related to unexpressed grief!
When people repress their emotions, there is a tendency to use passive aggression as a way of
expressing them. This results in a person who may express his/her anger indirectly, which is
called passive aggression. These can be people who smile to your face and then stab you in the
back. A common expression in our culture which reflects this concept is, “I don’t get mad, I get
even!” I would much rather experience healthy direct expression of anger than a continual
indirect attack.


The main article is here

Great post! Very helpful.

[Absurd]

You might encourage your sister to perform surgery on you. I'm sure she would feel better.

Nah.

Sister power.

[InvisibleJim]

Someone's best approach to their parents might be "tell them what they want to hear" but what I mean by details is Si stuff that they're concerned about. I think I was able to give them those sorts of cues because I could more natural pick up on Fi/Te cues and then kind of bastardize my Se into Si - they say that for Se leads Si is strong unconscious or whatever. My Beta brother was not as natural at working them and I think his Si polr came into play there. I haven't heard you talk about your parent's thought processes so I can't comment on that.

It sounds like your parents and mine share some of the same values, but people can come to similar values using different thought processes. For example, my brother has become religious and closer to my parents in the last year but when I talk to him about that value he doesn't *think* like a Delta and he doesn't make decisions based on Delta inner processes.

As you may have noted the various deltas on the forum will only accept Positive or Neutral adjectives when used to describe their quadra or personality.

[Suz]

I grew up with TWO Delta introverts!! Girllll I feel ya. I've have thought before that their personalities have been affected by their critical/chaotic upbringings, but regardless, all they want to do in life is exist in a peaceful bubble. People have commented before when coming to our house that it is sooo peaceful and they get such good sleep, etc, and I feel that too - except it is really frustrating because it feels like nothing moves once you pull up in the driveway. There's trees and an orchard and a badass solar shower and amazing Si woodwork and NOTHING MOVES. NOTHING CHANGES.

I can actually get along with them and up until recently have gotten along with them because I know what they want to hear. You basically just have to tell them what they want to hear. Talking about details. Lots of details. Details, details, details. Miniscule details. Then go on a rant about the details.

Talk about your work. Talk about people not having ethics in your workplace and how you have to pick up the slack. Complain in a morose yet "above it all" manner. Work is pretty much the only thing about me my parents can relate to. No talking about politics, ideals, religion, personal values, or anything because they are SO RIGID and I have to pick up all the emotional slack.

You have to understand Delta's can't change their personal values even if they wanted to. They're just perpetually stuck in this rigid mindset and they complain because it is venting the constant inner pressure. They're extremely hard on themselves and especially in the introverts this tends to manifest in weird ways. The INFjs are overworked/depressive/martyrs because they have issues with their self worth and the ISTps are depressed loners who may either go postal or just turn into a literal rock, like a boulder or a piece of granite. ENFps are probably my favorite Delta because they're more flexible and somewhat less rigid than the other Deltas.

When I left home I did the only thing that will actually hurt them and that is ice them out - cut them off. It's like a wall of negative Fi. The thing is is that Deltas don't really understand the passionate aspect of Ni/Se. They'll be offended or butthurt or try to turn your string cheese with Rihanna at midnight into a cheese and wine tasting event with jazz music. They just HAVE to even things out and dilute the intensity. Sitting still with their own deep emotions or even acknowledging their own deep emotions causes them great pain and causes them to go chop wood with a psycho killer smile. The icier they get the more hurt they are.

When I was working at a coffee shop my parents would show up every week or so and have a meal there. They would also come by McDonalds and have Sunday lunch or get a coffee and this was their way of showing they were proud that I was doing something "productive". This was after I left home. I kept trying to relate to them and then I stopped and just left home and iced them out for a while. They didn't like it but it made them deal with someone *just like them*, which will make them respect you more.

My advice for your sister (which you can take or leave, because it's HEAVILY biased from my own family dynamic) - when you're dealing with them, stop showing emotion for the sake of showing emotion. I know you're Beta, but you have to be strategic about it. My brother lost his temper with them soo much growing up and it didn't do a damn thing. It's probably really hard if you want to be close to your sister and you feel like you can't be yourself, but that's probably how she feels too. My brother is Beta and he's been "cool" since he learned what "cool" was. It makes him really inaccessible because he can't talk about anything other than how a 24/7 positive outlook is his key to life and how everyone needs to run x amount of miles a day and achieve his amazing gym rat body.

There are a couple approaches you can take, so assess the situation accordingly. You have to read her. Deltas and Fi valuers in general may have a hard time communicating in the socially graceful/"cool" way that Betas take for granted if they (the Delta) are not happy. If she's acting grumpy but you sense vulnerability under the surface that means you coddle her. Whatever you think is weird or socially unacceptable to you - stop judging it and just try to understand what she's feeling.

Feelers, especially Fi types, are real softies and they tend to get butthurt and ice you out if you don't accommodate and let them have what they need at the time. Some need empathy, some need you to wash the dishes, some need to hear "I love you" a lot, some need to go on long nature walks with you, and some just need you to hang with them quietly without being dramatic. Maybe since she's your sister you know what kind of lovin' she needs. Just give her whatever the golden ticket is. She'll open up a little. She'll respond by becoming slightly more flexible and engaging.

Just give her a bone. She's not going to fight you for it unless she's really angry, and that will stress her out. Wanting her to pull out those deep emotions any time you want will stress her out. Beta's don't understand that. I know you probably can't read her as well as an Fi valuing type would be able to and that frustrates you and you think that lack of reaction = lack of care. It doesn't. Just understand that. What you think is fun friendly awesome competition is wearisome and stressful for her. She doesn't want to compete with you. She wants to let it all hang out with you, probably, and you are so into maintaining an image (a kickass, beautiful image btw!) that you probably don't realize that your physical actions or comments reflect that.

You've also been in an intense, roller coaster relationship in part due to the addictive quality of it, and I think Se/Ni types have a tendency for this and get addicted to the rush - and see intensity as a bonding process. The lines blur on what is good and what is bad intensity, and abuse and whatnot, and I'm not trying to seem judgmental when I say - you probably just have the disposition for this kind of relationship, and that has highs and lows. Sometimes it is actual abuse and sometimes it's just "die motherfucker" said in an affectionate way. Betas probably have the strongest disposition towards this, on a spectrum, and Gamma comes after Beta. Gammas have this disposition but they lack the Fe/Ti aspect so it isn't always communicated in an "appropriate" way and so I think they tend to ride more on their ability to understand situations using Fi/Te. Like I can relate to both Delta and Beta in certain ways and use the spectrum as a means to deduce in part what's going on with them.

Basically Deltas have probably the least tolerance for this intensity because their internals are completely static and they are always modulating their externals to appropriate protect/accommodate those internals. If you can't really change your values - *change* your values based on what may be situationally best - this is a flexibility that I see in Fe/Ti that I tend to envy at times - then you're stuck modulating and controlling EVERYTHING. If you KNOW something will make you butthurt but you don't have the inner flexibility to adapt to it you're stuck listening to classical music or eating fancy cheese like a stick in the mud - or listening to real screamo shit - etc. I'm obviously exaggerating, and I'm not sure about the technicalities of it, but basically both you and your sister are probably just operating within the spheres that you operate in and since they are completely different spheres you have no insight on what is going on with eachother.

So try understanding her and getting where she's coming from in whatever way you think best. If she doesn't respond to your obvious attempts at reconciliation she's being bitchy - don't let her get away with being an ice cold bitch to you. You can only meet halfway and she has to put effort in too. If she's completely icing you out in that Fi way and not showing any vulnerability - just ice her out right back. I can't believe she doesn't at least be nice to you and listen when you want to talk about your shit, even if she doesn't want to/know how to talk about her shit. Don't personally attack her, don't get emotional, don't be a bitch, don't give her any feelings of yours to work with till she's ready to give back. Just be extremely neutral and wait for her to come to you.

When I moved out I found a more outgoing part of my personality that I feel had been repressed growing up. I'm not completely outgoing but I can harness that aspect when I want and I think it really surprises my family. I got a little drunk and danced at a family birthday party once with the other cool relatives, and my mom and dad literally sat in the corner with their arms crossed and with weird looks on their face.

It was so offputting that they couldn't just relax about it. It's not their life and they need to chill. In some part I think if she's being a grump and a stick in the mud then you just gotta be like "haters gonna hate" and let it roll off your back. Deltas can be grumpy and dry as hell from time to time and that's just a given when you're dealing with them.

Just remember that they've probably got a secret stash of porn/Twilight novels/machetes in their room/house/garage and they just don't want to be upfront about it. The kink is really personal to them. There's a big black dusty dildo under the guest bed at my parent's house. It humanizes them. (I'm saving this knowledge for an emergency )

Wow Dolphin. You have an amazing insight into delta NFs. You are so spot on.

[OldPathWhiteClouds]

RE: "My EII sister is like a grumpy old man"

Im pretty sure my brother and sister thought I was a grumpy old man like little kid growing up too. I just had too much stuff going on in my head and no easy way (and sometimes no desire, for various reasons) to relate it to others.

[mikemex]

ISTps are depressed loners who may either go postal

Yay!

[Waster]

Seriously though, I think the irrational deltas are probably more carefree. Also, the idea of Delta fun is more subdued then Beta fun so Betas having fun tend to come across as too strong from my pov and other Deltas as well imo.

Irrational deltas best deltas.

Yay!

Imma gonna kill u.

[Emmym]

IDK, I feel like all Deltas are different to an extent. My brother is LSI and he and I play and joke around a lot, use a lot of violent humor and play really violent video games together and just act stupid in general, lots of pranks and shit (OTOH if he acted maliciously violent towards me I would probably have a meltdown). I had a Fi-EII coworker once tell me she couldn't trust me (in a serious, disappointed way) because a gay IEE guy and I had been telling everyone we were dating and she had just found out that it wasn't true (it was sort of a prank to see if people would figure out he was gay and what they would think, immature but fun at the time). I know one EII-Ne who can be rambunctious and sharp in her humor, but most of the EIIs I know are Fi-sub and sort of act like boring little monks, lol. What's funny to them is harmless, silly (and, IMO, tacky) stuff. Example: one Fi-EII I used to know would never dry her hands after using the toilet and washing them, and would flick the water on people while yelling, "I peed on my hands!!" She used to also make loud farting noises and found them hilarious. I found them gross and embarrassingly juvenile.

I also get along well with Fe-IEIs, and I'm absolutely happy to talk about my life/myself with them, but sometimes it seems like they just asked because they wanted to talk about themselves and they don't really listen to me or give a shit about my life. And IEIs and SEIs both have this habit of constantly nagging me about me about one detail which they think is important, even if I've said it's not important to me at the time, like getting a boyfriend or trying yoga or some shit. I find that, over time, the IEIs usually come to understand and support my POV if it's healthy, but the SEIs can be annoyingly persistent. Both types tend to project their own goals onto other people and expect them to try to match or compete with them, and they seem to act strange if I'm doing something THEY want to do, like they either try to bring me down about it if it seems out of their reach or force me to help them start doing it as well (IEIs are especially like this about anything that could make them a lot of money).

I would say that if your sister isn't opening up to you, either she's boring or she senses something insincere in you. Thinking someone's shady is the biggest reason I would withhold things from them. Sorry, I think I rambled.