I have never heard anything so stupid. This is clearly the work of someone that knows nothing about socionics in the least bit.Originally Posted by "Phaedrus"
Dumbest thing I have ever heard
I have never heard anything so stupid. This is clearly the work of someone that knows nothing about socionics in the least bit.
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I think the question here is, what do we mean by "very similar"? I'm sure Phaedrus would agree that ESTp is "more similar" to ISTj than it is to lots of other types, as they are the same quadra, same club, both S types, both T types, and so forth.
But I recall hitta saying on various occasions that mirror types are "basically the same type"...no doubt largely becomes they come out the same in hitta's version of Model A. But there are important differences between mirror types, stemming largely from the difference between the base and creative function.
He's giving too much importance to temperaments and not enough to quadra values. That's all.
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And this is the big tug-of-war, isn't it? Obviously, both are important, but there's suspicion on both sides of the argument that the other side completely disregards the opposing point of view. A classic paradigm in how to keep disagreements alive.
This is fucking retarded. I know LSIs who seem more Se dominant than most SLEs, and some who could sooner be mistaken for EIIs. It's 100% ridiculous to make claims like "all LSIs and SLEs behave similarly" or "LSIs and SLEs are completely different." You both need to let go of your absolutist theoretical interpretations and actually go type some people.
Well put.
LII
Why did hitta even start this thread? A thread that calls attention to another, already existing thread?
I'd guess it's because he wants confirmation from others that that was indeed an extraordinarily dumb thing. Why?
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Quite alot of threads in this forum seem to be for this very purpose, I've noticed
LII
It's interesting, I wonder if there's a pattern regarding which types consistently side with temperament vs. whom consistently sides with mirror. Personally I barely ever confuse mirrors but often confuse those of similar temperament (i.e. i'm more likely to confuse an ENFj-Ni for an ENTj-Ni and vice versa than to confuse an ENFj for an INFp or ENTj for INTp, so I can see where Phaedrus is coming from here as I consider an ESTp and ISTj to be noticably unlike each other in demeanor
INFp-Ni
I'm also opposed to starting new threads without a proper basis as it wastes space but I've noticed that certain forum members do so non-chalantly and was thinking it's a Ne>Ni thing
LSI and SLE: I think when they interact they often realise they see the world similarly, but for an external viewer, I think they can appear very different indeed. Same can be said for many of the mirrors.
If there is a pattern, one possibility could be that Fs go for vibes, which might be influenced more by temperament. Ts might focus more on what someone says and why, which might lead to a more theoretical function-based approach and thus to mirror confusion.
I think IRL temperaments show up a lot more than online.
LSI
I agree with everything here. And I would like to add that another way to describe the very clear differences in behaviours and attitudes is to refer to their temperaments. Two Mirrors live in totally different life rhythms; their temperaments are opposites, and for example their working styles are miles apart. There are many more respects in which they are very different, and all of those respects have to do with the general differences between rationality and irrationality, and also between extraversion and introversion. Both the J/P dimension and the E/I dimension have a strong biological basis and reflect fundamental natural differences between the types.
This is how you should approach the types. People on this forum focus way to much on the quadras -- to such an extent that many of you have become blind to the basics.
Yep.
Even though an ESTp and ISTj live on different rhythms, and have different energy orientations, I would consider them more similar than, say, an ESTp and ESFp, because quadra values determine a person's focus; temperament is just the way they do it.
I've never thought of quadra values as very defining features, seeing them as something that's only apparent in the long-term. I'd wager intelligence plays just as much, if not more, of a role on a person's focus than quadra values
well, I wasn't exactly clear on what I meant by focus. The whole concept of quadras suggests that each is a social group that offers a contribution to society. When I said focus, I meant basically what you value, want to see happen, etc. in life. ESTp and ISTj, both being beta, have similar focuses, some of which include expansion and societal structure. In terms of energy flow and orientation, the ESTp is very similar to the ESFp, but the ESFp cares about developing things that benefit people, pragmatic ventures, not just visionary plans...
as for intelligence, well that brings in a whole other aspect, because yeah, smarter people have wider and more developed focuses.
Last edited by strrrng; 02-25-2008 at 11:18 PM.
They are more similar in some respects, and they are less similar in other respects. It all depends on what exact aspects we are focusing on.
But this whole discussion started when hitta claimed that ISTjs are risk-oriented and impulsive and totally denied that they can be perceived as systematic and dull. Why don't people stand up and say unanimously that hitta is plain wrong about ISTjs? Hitta obviously has a totally different type than LSI in mind when he makes those totally false statements about ISTjs. That simply MUST be pointed out.
agree 100%. that's why this debate is so hard.
he is wrong. he bases that assertion off of their base function (in his mind): +Ti/-Te. Since -Te is associated with minimizing uselessness, taking business risks, new ventures, suddenly this makes ISTj's impulsive and risky. that's bullshit. what he fails to do is see the structure, dynamics, and relative interactions of functions, whether +/- or not...he just takes them all at equal value, so an ESFj and INTj who both have -Fe have a need to be rude. I stopped giving his system merit long ago. and hitta, don't come on here saying it's not your system and how it's valid in russia and how all your "friends" love it, cause first of all that sounds like some shitty american idol contestant trying to save their pride, but secondly it's about your interpretation of this whole +/- thing, and it is simply inaccurate.
I don't really care, say what you want.
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LSIs are Positivists. This could lead to their being seen as enthusiastic, willing to try "new things" that don't violate their principles or sense of stability, and focused on the positive aspects of things.
LSIs have strong Se. This could lead to their being seen as willing to take calculated physical risks and behave daringly when required.
LSIs are also IJ temperament. This could lead to their being seen as inflexible and unbending, which, in some cases, could manifest in an unwillingness to compromise stability in favor of high-output risk.
You people want this to be easy but it's not.
If two types use the same functions(even though in different ways) they are going to be extremely similar. This thread just shows the stupidity of this forum.
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Can you explain the Russian INTp to me and why it is different please?
So why are you wasting your time here? Give up. Nobody's going to be as intelligent as you.
That statement is plain false. You have this theory, which you believe in, but you have never compared your understanding of the types with reality. Mirrors are clearly different in their outward behaviours.
I agree with this. I've had loads of different interactions with mirror and what you say is the case.
Good. To reach a consensus on these aspects of the types is a progress. Anyone else who agrees with it?
yeah, shocker. being insular is more safe than opening yourself up to the possibility of a less simplistic universe. I can empathize with your issue
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