ENFps and sense of space and distance

[unefille]

I see it exactly like you. And the same goes for space, only the map is 3D and very complex, especially in the case of the car. I wouldn't been able to explain it or draw it, it's too complex. Still I know how and where everything should be placed. I guess it's about Ne.

Hmm, but it must be Ne coupled with Te valuing somehow? Because as you mention, your husband isn't quite as adept as you are at it, even though he's also Ne-dominant. But it is definitely primarily Ne related I think - doing things IN space, the Si-Te/Te-Si people I know are better than doing things like packing. But when it comes to have to get things to FIT - I can see the most bizarre POTENTIAL of given spaces: I've very good at arranging things so that objects that should not fit otherwise, do. I think that's because 'space' and 'direction' are actually abstract concepts and on some level, spatial manipulation is more about perceived possibilities than then concrete dimensions of that space.

[XoX]

Why isn't this related?

[Christy B]

I don't locate myself according to sensory data, but in an abstact mind-map: as though I'm looking down at the landscape and tracing lines of where we've gone. I can tell you which direction we need to head as the crow flies - that is, I can't say: let's take this turn or that turn, according to roads available to us, but I can say, roughly, we've walked southeast from our starting point and now we need to go north and west to get back.

I do this too, and I am never worried about not going the exact same way cause I know I will find my way back. For some reason this used to annoy the hell out of my SLI exbf.

Also, based on my previous knowledge of the patterns of cities or towns I can basically find things in new places, like certain types of stores or a metro stations or whatever I am looking for, that I didn't know were there becuase I believed that in this type of city usually they put x type of store or resturant in this kind of area. This is not a completely foolproof way to do things but it almost always works.

I am not IEE but I think maybe this works similarly with you guys???

[dbmmama]

Why isn't this related?

i thought so too.

[Sirena]

I can't say I'm good at any of this stuff. I pay very little attention to external objects and have been called oblivious many a time. I get lost out there on the road quite a bit. I remember one time I was driving back from an out of town training. I had been driving for a while, listening to something really interesting on the radio, when all of a sudden I realize I'm not quite sure where I am. After a little while it became quite clear that I had been going the opposite way on the interstate the entire time. LOL.

I'm not good at packing or anything like that either. My suitcases and boxes always seem to get full faster than when my mom, for instance, packs them. LOL. I definitely have difficulty with anything spatial (parking the car, etc).

[tiny_dancer]

Actually, I think I may have voted wrong. I'm sure there are people who are better at it than I am. I rarely get lost, though, unless I'm trying to use a map while driving because then I'm concentrating on not getting into an accident. And I tend to think in 3D.

[Sirena]

Oh yeah, I do tend to think in 3D.

[jewels]

I get lost a lot unless I force myself to pay attention. If I pay attention I'm pretty good at it. I usually go in the general direction of something...like it should be north east, so over here somewhere...at that seems to work.

Still, I wouldn't say it's a strength of mine.

[Topaz]

OHHHH! I thought it was going to be about OUTER SPACE! I love sci-fi. I good with making things fit and sizing things up (well, fairly good) but Im terrible at directions. i have to pay special attention because I easily get lost going somewhere. Even if Ive been there before if I wasnt the one driving I usually forget where it is. Its really quite embarrassing.

[tereg]

So, here's my spatial orientation story.

Sense of direction. You know, sometimes it's on, and sometimes it's off for me. Some of my friends would have you believe that I have a really crappy sense of direction, others it wouldn't be an issue.

But I think it's interesting when I go back to a place I haven't been to in a very long time, and things just feel familiar. And not simply because I used to be there. The thing I sort of fixate on are landmarks along the way. A sign, a store, a building, it really could be anything. There's a weird sort of ... familiarity that goes a little bit beyond just having been there before.

I took a trip to my hometown this past weekend to attend a friend's wedding. The wedding was held at a university that I had been interested in attending after my high school years. So, I had not been there or in that part of the city in probably 7 or 8 years. But, as I drove there, the things I'd see along the way time warped me back to when I used to work in that part of the city in my high school days. And I just sort of knew vaguely where certain things were. Like not specifically, but in the general direction. But there was a strange familiarity with it even though I had been separated from it for such a long time.

Interestingly enough, I was driving back after the wedding to the apartment I was staying in, and I took a turn onto the correct street I was supposed to turn on to go back, but went the opposite way down the road I was supposed to be on. And exactly as Sirena described it, I had this really strange feeling that the surroundings I was seeing didn't feel quite right, and then realized I was going the wrong way, made a U-turn and headed back.

Now, if I was with someone who was more familiar with the city who knew where I was supposed to go, they would have no doubt criticized me or had a good laugh. And I would be left feeling embarassed.

Spatial orientation. Reading through this thread, I think I feel very similarly to Sirena in this regard. The thing that crossed my mind while going through this thread was placing dishes in a dishwasher. I also have had some very strange spatial orientations that I've come up with in how to arrange the dishes. I am naturally inefficient in this regard, though something I'm always consciously aware of and try to do actively do well in.

I was also criticized for how I placed the dishes in the dishwasher while I was growing up. The people who criticized more for it always made it seem like I should be better at it than I was and that it "isn't that difficult", which ok, sure, it's not really "that difficult" of a task, but come on. So, any time I ever did the dishes, it always felt like I was holding my breath like "Ok, don't screw this up." sort of thing.

Packing bags or suitcases, folding clothes into a drawer, same sort of thing. I come up with some very wild, inconsistent potentials for how things can be arranged, but not on purpose. I'm really trying to find a good way to arrange it, yet some people think that I'm "not using my head" or "not using good common sense". Whatever.

But aside from all that, in all seriousness, I actually do relate to the first part of this thread. When I'm on my game, I can visualize objects and how they fit into a given space. Like understanding if an object can fit, I can do that well naturally.

But know if it can fit and how they should fit are two different things in my mind.

[consentingadult]

I'm very good a 'feeling direction'. It's something that's been quite pronounced since I was young. Dad (SLI) and I would also know which direction we needed to head in and which direction we'd come from. Mum (EIE) never had any sense of direction and would, when walking past roads we'd been down before, get them muddled up all the time. I would attribute this to her Si POLR, except that my direction doesn't come necessary from Si.

Idolatrie (LSE) and my father, I think, both locate themselves according to sensory data: this tree, this building, that object on the horizon and how its position has changed as we moved. I don't locate myself according to sensory data, but in an abstact mind-map: as though I'm looking down at the landscape and tracing lines of where we've gone. I can tell you which direction we need to head as the crow flies - that is, I can't say: let's take this turn or that turn, according to roads available to us, but I can say, roughly, we've walked southeast from our starting point and now we need to go north and west to get back.

I can very much relate to this, I instinctively know which way to head for, a very intuitive (not in the Socionic sense) thing.

In 2001, I was sailing on a tall ship on the South Pacific and we had to take turns at the helm. In French Polynesia, the captain decided to switch to Polynesian navigation, which meant: no GPS, and not even a compass. We had to steer by 'gut feeling'. I did a pretty good job.

However, if I have to fit something into a space, I only know if it does after having tried it, so I'm really crap at that.

Edit: after giving it some more thought, I suspect the navigation thing is somehow time-related (Ni??). I recall a story of that captain about a western scientist who sailed along with a Polynesian boat. At some stage the captain of that boat gave the order to tack and the scientist asked why he tacked at that particular time\, to which he answered: 'because it's time". "Yes, but why is it time to tack?" askd the scientist. "BECAUSE IT IS TIME TO TACK!", the captain answered annoyed. It was a total, cultural misunderstanding.

[FDG]

I'm very good a 'feeling direction'. It's something that's been quite pronounced since I was young. Dad (SLI) and I would also know which direction we needed to head in and which direction we'd come from. Mum (EIE) never had any sense of direction and would, when walking past roads we'd been down before, get them muddled up all the time. I would attribute this to her Si POLR, except that my direction doesn't come necessary from Si.

Eh, sorry to intervene, but I don't think it's the Si PoLR, because I'm ENTj and very good at directions (I'd say it's one of the greatest strenghts of mine)

[consentingadult]

Eh, sorry to intervene, but I don't think it's the Si PoLR, because I'm ENTj and very good at directions (I'd say it's one of the greatest strenghts of mine)

Si PoLR implies creative Ni, and I just said that sense of direction probably relates to Ni, or do you think it relates more to Te? Or perhaps it's not type related at all?

[XoX]

I know I am better than most people at this, and I mean significantly better. I find shortcuts where others have problems finding the road. Why...? I would logically assume Se (or maybe Te?) to be important, but I'm not at all a Se kind of person. (I'm not logical neither, that's why I ask....)

These kind of things can be puzzling to me too when you only work with your observations.

But if I work with the definitions it _seems_ easier...Se is "external statics of objects". Clearly evaluating the size and shape of a box and a space you should put it into is about external statics. It couldn't get any more external and it is not dynamic either. Thus it has to be about Se. The whole task doesn't contain any kind of internal dimension imho and thus Fi (internal statics of fields/relations) wouldn't be of any help. Ti is about external statics and thus Ti would potentially be more useful than Fi (or at least not any less useful).

So I cannot see the task of putting boxes into a car much else than Se and perhaps slightly more so SeTi than SeFi task. At least this would be the trivial logical conclusion.

I'd guess that Ne would be something like realizing that both the box and the car are actually containers for storing and moving stuff around. Car is basically a box with wheels and an energy source. Or something. Internal statics i.e. abstract qualities or "essence". Not about external qualities like size and shape.

Te (external dynamics of objects) wouldn't really be useful unless there is something dynamic about the boxes or the space. For example if you have to understand how to operate some tool or machinery to perform this task or lock/tie up the boxes then I think you would have to use Te. But Te isn't related to evaluating static qualities.

I would actually be interested in someone correcting/improving my explanation because I'm learning to use these definitions and they are so abstract that I might be applying them somehow incorrectly.

So if you are significantly better than most others it would suggest you have stronger than average Se. If you value this kind of concrete ability more so than you value the more abstract ability of Ne it would suggest you are not IEE. Of course you might be IEE with unusually strong Se. Or you might just be exaggerating your ability and if you'd compete against SLE or LSI in the task of arranging boxes into a space you would see that you are not as good as you think.

Well, I'm not sure if this is any use to you but anyways. Subjectively speaking I currently see no reason to contest your type. There is probably some other explanation for this.

[Chocolate]

I often get lost, I usually don't see things placed near my nose. I never know where things are, except my room.

I can't say I'm good at any of this stuff. I pay very little attention to external objects and have been called oblivious many a time. I get lost out there on the road quite a bit. I remember one time I was driving back from an out of town training. I had been driving for a while, listening to something really interesting on the radio, when all of a sudden I realize I'm not quite sure where I am. After a little while it became quite clear that I had been going the opposite way on the interstate the entire time. LOL.

I get lost a lot unless I force myself to pay attention. If I pay attention I'm pretty good at it. I usually go in the general direction of something...like it should be north east, so over here somewhere...at that seems to work.

Still, I wouldn't say it's a strength of mine.

Exactly. But I still think I'm crap at it.
Many times I've been asked for giving direction. Only once I did it correctly. I also tend to think in 3D and I remember streets' locations quite well, but I never know names of streets. Unless somebody draws a picture of 'how to get to xyz', I won't know where is it.

Imo, subtype has weaker than subtype. So maybe Mimosa is and Sirena is subtype and everything is all right .

[Sirena]

I often get lost, I usually don't see things placed near my nose. I never know where things are, except my room.



Exactly. But I still think I'm crap at it.
Many times I've been asked for giving direction. Only once I did it correctly. I also tend to think in 3D and I remember streets' locations quite well, but I never know names of streets. Unless somebody draws a picture of 'how to get to xyz', I won't know where is it.

Imo, subtype has weaker than subtype. So maybe Mimosa is and Sirena is subtype and everything is all right .

Possibly. It would be funny though, considering that MP has "subtyped" herself as Ne and I've subtyped myself as Fi.

I still don't see how this would explain it though. Se is still weak and unvalued in IEEs, regardless of subtype. How does that explain being better than the average person at it?

[Nevero]

i orient by street names rather than landmarks and the layout of each intersection, remembering how each street is connected with others. the whole road presents to me as a network of knots, each knot branching into more possible locations.

Hmm, but it must be Ne coupled with Te valuing somehow? Because as you mention, your husband isn't quite as adept as you are at it, even though he's also Ne-dominant. But it is definitely primarily Ne related I think - doing things IN space, the Si-Te/Te-Si people I know are better than doing things like packing. But when it comes to have to get things to FIT - I can see the most bizarre POTENTIAL of given spaces: I've very good at arranging things so that objects that should not fit otherwise, do. I think that's because 'space' and 'direction' are actually abstract concepts and on some level, spatial manipulation is more about perceived possibilities than then concrete dimensions of that space.

seeing in your sig my inference would be that seeing "bizarre potential of spaces" is the consequence of your Ni-creative

[Eliza Thomason]

I consider my sense of space better than most, however, I may mean it in a different sense. I have a very good sense of direction, something a lot of people lack. I also have a sense of the space of a room... I am a good designer of space. I am sensitive to pictures hung too high or improper balance of negative space in an arranged room.