1st ever and last

[nondescript]

You guys can argue all you want

Who told you are EII?

Self-typing is THE MOST INNACURATE method because it is, get this, subjective by nature. But you are just proving my point.

Someone wants to help you -> you see enemies everywhere -> you say "FUCK OFF"(in whichever terms, but it is that) -> you surround yourself with enemies. And I know this how?

Because this how I act. Regretably, but it is true. And this whole thread was nothing more than a more attention grabbing version of me. And I know just how you will react to this(all 3 ways), so don't even bother. Rather just answer the question I posted at the top. Believe it or not, I want to help you because I knowhow this feels like and I'd certainly want to be helped like this(even if I'd "FUCK OFF" the person ). "Do unto others what you wish for others to do unto you" is like my mantra after all . Or I try to follow it, rather.

[UDP]

Maybe your not seeing intuition in Maritsa is due to your Ni and Ne being in completely different positions in Model A, so it expresses itself completely differently from your expression of intuition.

I think, one light, it is not hard to see how she operates as being 'sans strong intuition', regardless of what type the observer is. There's a fair amount of self absorption and lack of emphasis on seeing things from other people's situation - or trying to communicate from it - or even concern about them at times ... which is often stereotypically associated with "intuition", sometimes wrongly so.

With EIIs its very much influenced by their feelings. Their feeling/intuition is VERY much tied together, and they are very firm in their judgments they make based on it. The different expression of EII to IEE that I always see is their sureness of where they stand on a thing, and I see that in Maritsa, even in this thread.

I think Maritsa handles (negative) things in an extremely intuitive way regarding being childlike/infantile or even victim-ish. It's kind of a pouting, and doesn't really feel to be along the lines of an Se or Si ego person.

[Myst]

@Maritsa i can see why people might suggest other xxFj types for you. sometimes i think you come across as having Passionate communication style (ExFx), or being Decisive (Se-Ni) or Obstinate (4D Fe or Ti) in Reinin dichotomies

She's actually quite like Radio with all these things you listed here.

I have never seen her come across as ExFx. I've yet to see her focus on any of the stereotypical Fe things either, I've seen no attempts to create an external feeling atmosphere or anything related to that. As for being Obstinate, I don't see that either, just because she has opinions and expresses them and doesn't change them all the time, it doesn't mean she's an Obstinate type. Same issue with Decisive dichotomy.

I really don't like it when people use Reinins in such a superficial way. The concrete trait lists for those dichotomies are worthless. There is no real proof available here that can be directly linked to any of the above Reinins.

see my disclaimer in her post. In general I see Fe more then Ne yes, to the point where i believe it's both stronger and more valued.

I do do know that subtypes can differ and yes I speculate on her motives, which are part of getting an accurate depiction of her character.

Speculating on motives will not lead to an accurate anything.

As for your disclaimer that this is just intuition. I don't care about that. Don't expect people to believe you without presenting sensible reasoning for your opinion.

[Myst]

You cannot just keep reverting to quoting each and every block of one type to "prove" you are a type. You frequently miss the point that each and every type, as defined, has an expertise.

Expertise, wtf. That's typism.

The way you clutch at straws and have a piecemeal, inconsistent approach to typing others really does seem like poor to me (not even -role).

I've seen Ti role types do that before, yep, it's one of the reasons I type Maritsa as EII - Ti DS doesn't really attempt to overdo Ti like that, due to the low confidence of one-dimensional functions.

We both know that EIE could give two shots about making typing of others a serious hobby.

Neat typism here too. OK, I think I'm done with this thread, it's all about completely pointless Ne guesses at bullshit constructs from loosely correlated concrete traits.

[Aylen]

see my disclaimer in her post. In general I see Fe more then Ne yes, to the point where i believe it's both stronger and more valued.

Did you know that for almost a year I mistook you Ne for Fe? Yes, I believe you do know.

[darya]

She's actually quite like Radio with all these things you listed here.

Yeah, Radio also firmly types Maritsa as his identical.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Expertise, wtf. That's typism.

The opposite of typism I think you'll find. I was taking issue of Maritsa;s habit of quoting people out of context for using words like "power" or "force", or for typing people as because they used a hedgetrimmer or whatever. She'll say one day that someone must be a SEE, because they have "control", but then the next day, or perhaps even the same day, she will claim to be an EII because she has a good sense of control...in what ever context suits her.

I've seen Ti role types do that before, yep, it's one of the reasons I type Maritsa as EII - Ti DS doesn't really attempt to overdo Ti like that, due to the low confidence of one-dimensional functions.

With Maritsa, no one in the history of the forum comes close to the consistency of high post count day-after-day, with great levels of intensity. The way she interrogates people (initiating debate at best, or general "final and confirming" seems utterly alien to EII types...it would seem more typical of an ExxJ type. Introverts I would expect to be "approached" rather than the other way round typically (or the forum equivalent)...or at least, they would be approximately equal in terms of "give-and-take" (the ability to take things at your own pace, and in your own comfort, and via written form, changes things a little). Maritsa however is very much someone who is never at home, never in a state of rest, never in a place of contemplation, never having periods of reassessing things and recharging. She is proactive; this is her natural state of being. She has a very much a "smash and grab" style to posting, and consistently. She is someone who very much speaks before they think, prone to outbursts being displayed before allowing herself time to read what others have written and to express herself in a more considered way.

Normally individuals have a full character that they display, and do not care for "inconsistencies" in their behaviour: they place emphasis on being themselves, from the surface to the deepest depths. In everything they do or say, they are an entire person, warts and all. But with Maritsa, it is clear that she has done everything she can to airbrush inconsistencies in her attempt to be the archetypal EII. She is "the EII" first, not Maritsa. Maritsa isn't capable of "bad intentions", or "evil", or "boastfulness", because Maritsa is EII, and EIIs are incapable of bad intentions, and evil, and boastfulness, and thus Maritsa is EII. If anything contradicts this, it is because she has been "provoked" by "mean" people.

While she has suffered some awful attacks that no one should have to experience...it doesn't make her any more EII when she makes such arguments.

When she says that the reason she is proactive in "typing people" day after day, she says it is because she is an EII, and she is caring out her role as the "Teacher", no doubt with a great humanitarian focus. Each time she makes this counterargument, she ignores the part about those people who criticise her not for being proactive, but for actively hassling so many members of the forum. She has caused so much bad blood with her aggressions.

I do not see her levels of energy and the degree to which she goes out of her way to prod others as at all typical of EIIs. I could far easily see it as more typical of an EIE for example, e.g. in a role as a Mentor. I find that her commentary on the types of others and the advice she gives to resemble reworded or paraphrased aspects of Socionics literature (this is not a criticism of EIEs). I find nothing in her behaviour that is typical of behaviour, and the case for being a -type seems to come from that she is chatty to many people on the forum. I talk of normal people being themselves through-and-through: in Maritsa's case, I see no examples whatsoever of "around the the edges", expressed readily and often, with no sense of it being a performance. e.g. for an individual such as myself, I feel that is readily apparent in my communication style, and in the way I describe myself, and in the way I relate my interests to others when communicating on the forum. I talk like this...I try to capture the essence of my thought process as accurately as possible. Some people often find that approach "vague" or "imprecise", although I believe to talk in absolute terms would be what was truly false or inaccurate. Maritsa to me seems more narrow in terms of behaviour and in speech. She claims to be a Humanitarian (The Humanitarian perhaps?) in the world of human affairs...but I only find her talking of Socionics usually, and in my view, rehashing what type descriptions and Socionics theory say, rarely in new terms. I do not see her readily displaying an interest in all the various aspects of human affairs, often interchangeably moving from one to the other. Some will attempt to bullshit and use a subtype explanation (or even resort to enneagram): but the thing is, if anything, she should be the extroverted variant of EII, not the introverted one. In addition, even compared to more subdue and/or private EIIs, those EIIs have an expansive reserve (they have a range of interests they quietly pursue and occasionally reveal, but they do not appear to be singular in focus when they do so).

I also think that all and -leading have a great sense of mental order, and are not prone to inconsistency in terms of behaviour and mental processes: certainly not over something they consider integral to their day-to-day lives. There is a stereotype of the EIE as a cult leader: they are quite capable of building grand systems with little internal consistency, backed with little other than "inner truths" and/or forms of special pleadings, or the influence of some other figure. (I think much of the pseudoscientific constructs of Freud, or the religion of Islam, would be good examples, at least if you consider Freud and Muhammad typable, and as examples of EIEs).

Maritsa's typings are (as far as anyone probably knows) drawn from the fraudulent Socionic "expert" Rod Novichkov, who influenced her in terms of VI "method" and who has apparently highly similar type distribution statistics (of Californians no doubt) to Maritsa's type list of forum members here. It is difficult for me to see her separately from him. She just apes his peculiar way of seeing things, that he wrote for an attempt at easy money. Again, her typelist I only see as incredibly poor ...a "system" disguised as a system. In reality, it's just "you disagree with me, you must be SEE", "You are male so you are probably SLI" "you are female and you disagree with me...you must be doubly SEE" (these are not actual quotes btw, and they do admittedly contradict Maritsa's "current" typing of me as SLI (I believe) despite disagreeing with her. Maybe I'm too polite or maybe there are exceptions...she has suggested four types for as possibilities in the last week (nothing wrong with that in itself IMO though!). ... that's the half of it...the other half of it is endlessly requesting photos of people. Someone might write several thousand words representing themselves at their most raw and open...only for Maritsa to pop up and ask for photos and not say anything on the personality, psychology etc. of the person in question. She is often literally someone who only takes things at face value at best (at worst, she will type faces that are only in profile).

Neat typism here too. OK, I think I'm done with this thread, it's all about completely pointless Ne guesses at bullshit constructs from loosely correlated concrete traits.

I see you are not immune to the old typism yourself .

[Myst]

Yeah, Radio also firmly types Maritsa as his identical.

Ah, right. Btw I recall Radio attributing those things to Ij temperament (being opinionated etc).

The opposite of typism I think you'll find. I was taking issue of Maritsa;s habit of quoting people out of context for using words like "power" or "force", or for typing people as because they used a hedgetrimmer or whatever. She'll say one day that someone must be a SEE, because they have "control", but then the next day, or perhaps even the same day, she will claim to be an EII because she has a good sense of control...in what ever context suits her.

Lol I don't really bother reading most of Maritsa's posts, I know she has some really weird ideas on socionics and people in general. Sometimes she does have good observations but usually her stuff is... too weird for my liking.

OK, I didn't read all the discussion so if you didn't intend to convey that having specific skills at the workplace etc and type preferences are one and the same then OK, it's not typism.

With Maritsa, no one in the history of the forum comes close to the consistency of high post count day-after-day, with great levels of intensity. The way she interrogates people (initiating debate at best, or general "final and confirming" seems utterly alien to EII types...it would seem more typical of an ExxJ type. Introverts I would expect to be "approached" rather than the other way round typically (or the forum equivalent)...or at least, they would be approximately equal in terms of "give-and-take" (the ability to take things at your own pace, and in your own comfort, and via written form, changes things a little). Maritsa however is very much someone who is never at home, never in a state of rest, never in a place of contemplation, never having periods of reassessing things and recharging. She is proactive; this is her natural state of being. She has a very much a "smash and grab" style to posting, and consistently. She is someone who very much speaks before they think, prone to outbursts being displayed before allowing herself time to read what others have written and to express herself in a more considered way.

Have you met her IRL? If not then a high post count on an online forum is not relevant. This is going to be a general statement to counter yours, but, introverts are quite fine expressing themselves in writing. I actually am quite comfortable with seeing her as an Ij type.

All in all, I am not interested in seeing speculation on what someone is like based on forum posts, no matter how many posts there are. What I care about is seeing the information processing at work and I type her EII strictly based on that, not based on stereotypes and vibes and whatnot.

Normally individuals have a full character that they display, and do not care for "inconsistencies" in their behaviour: they place emphasis on being themselves, from the surface to the deepest depths. In everything they do or say, they are an entire person, warts and all. But with Maritsa, it is clear that she has done everything she can to airbrush inconsistencies in her attempt to be the archetypal EII. She is "the EII" first, not Maritsa. Maritsa isn't capable of "bad intentions", or "evil", or "boastfulness", because Maritsa is EII, and EIIs are incapable of bad intentions, and evil, and boastfulness, and thus Maritsa is EII. If anything contradicts this, it is because she has been "provoked" by "mean" people.

While she has suffered some awful attacks that no one should have to experience...it doesn't make her any more EII when she makes such arguments.

No, of course, it doesn't make her EII; what makes her EII is her information processing.

When she says that the reason she is proactive in "typing people" day after day, she says it is because she is an EII, and she is caring out her role as the "Teacher", no doubt with a great humanitarian focus. Each time she makes this counterargument, she ignores the part about those people who criticise her not for being proactive, but for actively hassling so many members of the forum. She has caused so much bad blood with her aggressions.

I do not see her levels of energy and the degree to which she goes out of her way to prod others as at all typical of EIIs. I could far easily see it as more typical of an EIE for example, e.g. in a role as a Mentor. I find that her commentary on the types of others and the advice she gives to resemble reworded or paraphrased aspects of Socionics literature (this is not a criticism of EIEs).

Again, speculation on her motives is not going to prove anything. She does not display Fe in ego unlike EIEs.

Also I don't see her as aggressive in the Se way.

I also think that all and -leading have a great sense of mental order, and are not prone to inconsistency in terms of behaviour and mental processes: certainly not over something they consider integral to their day-to-day lives.

Yes, Maritsa and also other EIIs are fine at consistency in their inert and strong Fi, however not in the flexible and situational, weak Ti role. As soon as the EII ventures into new situations with their Ti, this inconsistency is going to show. While they remain in Fi area they do sound very consistent and orderly in a sense, I agree on that. (Though for the Ne subtype of EII they might look a bit all over the place with strong Ne. What I said is more apparent for Fi subtypes.)

There is a stereotype of the EIE as a cult leader: they are quite capable of building grand systems with little internal consistency, backed with little other than "inner truths" and/or forms of special pleadings, or the influence of some other figure. (I think much of the pseudoscientific constructs of Freud, or the religion of Islam, would be good examples, at least if you consider Freud and Muhammad typable, and as examples of EIEs).

They (EIEs) however present it very differently from how Maritsa does it.

I don't think Freud or Muhammad had to be EIEs either. I don't know enough of the latter, the former simply doesn't seem EIE in his way of thinking.

Maritsa's typings are (as far as anyone probably knows) drawn from the fraudulent Socionic "expert" Rod Novichkov

How is this relevant to her type. The way Maritsa presents that system is different from how say, an ILE with strong Ti and Ne would do it.

In reality, it's just "you disagree with me, you must be SEE", "You are male so you are probably SLI" "you are female and you disagree with me...you must be doubly SEE" (these are not actual quotes btw, and they do admittedly contradict Maritsa's "current" typing of me as SLI (I believe) despite disagreeing with her.

I think she actually has a bit more refined way of seeing things than how you interpret it here, though I'm not claiming she has such a great understanding either.

She is often literally someone who only takes things at face value at best (at worst, she will type faces that are only in profile).

Not really, she's always ready to jump to far flung associations from what she sees. That is not taking things at face value.

I see you are not immune to the old typism yourself .

How do you see this as typism? I will not deny the fact that this was my own biased POV of not seeing a point in the Ne type of speculation but that's not the same thing as believing in socionics stereotypes.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Have you met her IRL? If not then a high post count on an online forum is not relevant. This is going to be a general statement to counter yours, but, introverts are quite fine expressing themselves in writing. I actually am quite comfortable with seeing her as an Ij type.

All in all, I am not interested in seeing speculation on what someone is like based on forum posts, no matter how many posts there are. What I care about is seeing the information processing at work and I type her EII strictly based on that, not based on stereotypes and vibes and whatnot.

I have not met her. But that is not to say that exceptional behaviour such as this, being as it is, grounded in something very weighty can just be passed aside as you would have it. I was clear also, it was not just the post count...it is the manner in which she posts (the high energy churning out of posts, and with great consistency, day after day), and the way she pursues others aggressively. I went to great lengths to explain this.

It seems on your logic, she cannot be an extrovert because extroverted functions cannot be displayed in written form. Totally false. I really do not see EII types as best typifying someone who regularly cajoles and prods others, pushes others out of the comfort zones, disrupts peaceable conversations, attempts appeals to the masses and uses other forms of "visible shows of support" as arguments, and who aggressively cuts off (and/or retypes) those who disagree with her typing in any way.

Again, speculation on her motives is not going to prove anything. She does not display Fe in ego unlike EIEs.

I was not speculating on her motives. It is what she regularly states; it is what she regularly reverts to. It is clear what her ingrained beliefs are.

Also I don't see her as aggressive in the Se way.

Others in "real life" have disagreed, but that's a hot topic.

Yes, Maritsa and also other EIIs are fine at consistency in their inert and strong Fi, however not in the flexible and situational, weak Ti role. As soon as the EII ventures into new situations with their Ti, this inconsistency is going to show. While they remain in Fi area they do sound very consistent and orderly in a sense, I agree on that. (Though for the Ne subtype of EII they might look a bit all over the place with strong Ne. What I said is more apparent for Fi subtypes.)

I do not buy this argument for the reasons I have previously stated. (Reverting to subtypes is a bullshit approach, and it doesn't even work in this case). As we have agreed that she has a prodigious posting frequency, it seems especially peculiar that she never takes time to ensure that her previous posts express consistency in her typology. Rather, she more typically posts more and more hot-headed responses, escalating the aggro and bad feeling, but never going back to first principles. It again shows an incredible lack of self-awareness. This is in combination with her utter inability to pick up on the nuances of what people are saying, or the general vibe of a post, or of a thread, or of forum opinion towards her (she asks for example for instances where she caused turmoil...admittedly, it could be to continue to attempt to assert a position of "rightness"...but it doesn't seem tenable to someone with PoLR, especially an EII.

They (EIEs) however present it very differently from how Maritsa does it.

I don't think Freud or Muhammad had to be EIEs either. I don't know enough of the latter, the former simply doesn't seem EIE in his way of thinking.

Not all EIEs are unhealthy or focus on building their own typologies. I would also say that EIIs on this forum present any such systems differently to Maritsa (if they do at all). It is atypical for it to be an affront on the senses, black-and-white "final and confirmed" typology that regularly causes confrontations (if they involve the types of others at all, they would be more inclined to emphasise the attitude on "in my humble opinion..."

How is this relevant to her type. The way Maritsa presents that system is different from how say, an ILE with strong Ti and Ne would do it.

We were talking about the basis of Maritsa's "typology". I contend it is poor (probably dual-seeking ), that apes some "guru"'s method, and that when investigated, falls apart completely. It is shown to be based on circular reasoning, and "J-necks" etc....which typically conform to her own ingrained biases. I think a -dominant would be more insular in approach, and if a self-described "Socionist"...more self-aware and consistent in their methodology (they would have a methodology for a start, and would typically have a very good idea why they think a certain why when asked.

How do you see this as typism? I will not deny the fact that this was my own biased POV of not seeing a point in the Ne type of speculation but that's not the same thing as believing in socionics stereotypes.

Only by the same token that you have done, only more so. I would say "completely pointless Ne guesses at bullshit constructs from loosely correlated concrete traits." would be rather typist, in a negative way, of -ism. Nothing necessarily wrong with that in itself, it is just irritating when you for example that you resort to dismissing something as "speculation" (if indeed it is), rather than seeing as potentially useful, if only as "subjective" observations or perceptions. Your attitude would have more weight being placed on Maritsa describing herself as "meek" for example, because she said it, or focusing on Maritsa relating being nice to puppies on one occasion, or indeed, even observing her apparently being nice to other members on this forum. That is also subjective, but at least we are attempting to aggregate our combined experiences and perceptions and trying to cross-examine such accounts.

[Myst]

I have not met her. But that is not to say that exceptional behaviour such as this, being as it is, grounded in something very weighty can just be passed aside as you would have it. I was clear also, it was not just the post count...it is the manner in which she posts (the high energy churning out of posts, and with great consistency, day after day), and the way she pursues others aggressively. I went to great lengths to explain this.

It seems on your logic, she cannot be an extrovert because extroverted functions cannot be displayed in written form. Totally false. I really do not see EII types as best typifying someone who regularly cajoles and prods others, pushes others out of the comfort zones, disrupts peaceable conversations, attempts appeals to the masses and uses other forms of "visible shows of support" as arguments, and who aggressively cuts off (and/or retypes) those who disagree with her typing in any way.

The fuck you were thinking to assume this was my logic? I never stated that I think extraverted functions can't be displayed in written form.

All I was saying is, you can't see on a forum what someone is really like in general - in this case energy levels throughout the day - how does that idea of yours even follow from this logically. It does not.

I repeat, post count and expressing opinions and whatever other things you've listed have nothing to do with extraversion in the socionics sense. I might as well be extraverted myself based on that and I am not. The same is true of many other introtims as well. You are really overrelying on loose or perhaps even non-existent correlations here.

Others in "real life" have disagreed, but that's a hot topic.

Hot topic eh? Say more on this.

I do not buy this argument for the reasons I have previously stated. (Reverting to subtypes is a bullshit approach, and it doesn't even work in this case). As we have agreed that she has a prodigious posting frequency, it seems especially peculiar that she never takes time to ensure that her previous posts express consistency in her typology. Rather, she more typically posts more and more hot-headed responses, escalating the aggro and bad feeling, but never going back to first principles. It again shows an incredible lack of self-awareness. This is in combination with her utter inability to pick up on the nuances of what people are saying, or the general vibe of a post, or of a thread, or of forum opinion towards her (she asks for example for instances where she caused turmoil...admittedly, it could be to continue to attempt to assert a position of "rightness"...but it doesn't seem tenable to someone with PoLR, especially an EII.

This is your subjective perception of her. I do not see her as any good at the Se type of perception. Se PoLR fits fine. Se != being opinionated, Se != hotheadedness, Se != disruptiveness and so on.

As for the idea of there being subtypes, I don't see how that's more bullshit in general than having the basic 16 types. They are simply a more refined model compared to the default model of 16 types, though the standard subtype theories (of inert/contact and accepting/producing) do involve certain assumptions that I don't agree with.

Not all EIEs are unhealthy or focus on building their own typologies.

Who the fuck was even claiming that? I most certainly was not. Again, this was absolutely not following from what I said.

I would also say that EIIs on this forum present any such systems differently to Maritsa (if they do at all). It is atypical for it to be an affront on the senses, black-and-white "final and confirmed" typology that regularly causes confrontations (if they involve the types of others at all, they would be more inclined to emphasise the attitude on "in my humble opinion..."

You are not entirely dissimilar to Maritsa in your way of presenting socionics. I strictly mean that from an information processing standpoint, I am not implying anything beyond that. So do not try to guess again and put bullshit in my mouth that I never said. OK? (If you are unsure on what I mean at times in my posts, just ask and I will happily clarify.)

Also, I don't think Maritsa is the only person here who starts disagreements on typings, it's a rather common occurrence on these typology forums.

Seems like your stereotype idea of EIIs is too narrow overall. Who cares if someone does something that's atypical of a typology stereotype? A single typology cannot cover all reasons that cause observable behaviour. That's often the problem with use of socionics by socionics fans but I'm not going to go on a rant about that now

We were talking about the basis of Maritsa's "typology". I contend it is poor (probably dual-seeking )

It is not Ti DS. Do you understand what it means to have different degrees of confidence in functions in a socionical sense?

I agree on it being poor Ti otherwise, sure. You don't have to list those ridiculous examples of Maritsa's ideas, I've seen them enough

I think a -dominant would be more insular in approach, and if a self-described "Socionist"...more self-aware and consistent in their methodology (they would have a methodology for a start, and would typically have a very good idea why they think a certain why when asked.

Lol she's just a random socionics fan if that's what we want to call a socionist, sure... I am being a bit sarcastic here

What do you mean by an "insular approach"? This was rather vague to me so I'm not following.

Only by the same token that you have done, only more so.

Nope. I was not stereotyping anyone based on type.

I would say "completely pointless Ne guesses at bullshit constructs from loosely correlated concrete traits." would be rather typist, in a negative way, of -ism. Nothing necessarily wrong with that in itself, it is just irritating when you for example that you resort to dismissing something as "speculation" (if indeed it is), rather than seeing as potentially useful, if only as "subjective" observations or perceptions. Your attitude would have more weight being placed on Maritsa describing herself as "meek" for example, because she said it, or focusing on Maritsa relating being nice to puppies on one occasion, or indeed, even observing her apparently being nice to other members on this forum. That is also subjective, but at least we are attempting to aggregate our combined experiences and perceptions and trying to cross-examine such accounts.

We can call it Ne-ism if you want, sure.

I understand you find it irritating as a Ne valuer but my POV won't change. "Potentially useful" is not exactly something real, you don't get anywhere with it. I'm all ears if there is some real proof for the argument but until then nope, sorry. I understand your POV is different, of course.

I don't see why you are bringing up Maritsa thinking she's a meek person, etc. Meekness, niceness, none of it is really relevant in terms of typing information processing. So I'm not really interested in checking if everyone sees Maritsa that way or not.

I know it can be used as heuristics to guess at more likely options for typing and I'm not entirely against it in the case of combinations of traits that can be shown to have high correlation with type but eventually I'm not satisfied with that sort of approach as there will always remain a degree of disconnect between sociotype and personality traits due to obvious reasons.

All in all, if you do not wish to look at how Maritsa processes information beyond personality traits and ambiguous examples of behaviour then you are not observing the socionics model, you are just doing some sort of stereotyping.

I do appreciate the discussion btw, I just don't think we'll get anywhere that way.

[Reficulris]

She's actually quite like Radio with all these things you listed here.

I have never seen her come across as ExFx. I've yet to see her focus on any of the stereotypical Fe things either, I've seen no attempts to create an external feeling atmosphere or anything related to that. As for being Obstinate, I don't see that either, just because she has opinions and expresses them and doesn't change them all the time, it doesn't mean she's an Obstinate type. Same issue with Decisive dichotomy.

I really don't like it when people use Reinins in such a superficial way. The concrete trait lists for those dichotomies are worthless. There is no real proof available here that can be directly linked to any of the above Reinins.




Speculating on motives will not lead to an accurate anything.

As for your disclaimer that this is just intuition. I don't care about that. Don't expect people to believe you without presenting sensible reasoning for your opinion.

I didn't expect anything. I answered a question.
also I think not focussing on motives will blind you to the world. But that's a choice I guess.

Did you know that for almost a year I mistook you Ne for Fe? Yes, I believe you do know.

very true I just don't see it. Maybe I AM Fe and she's Ne

[Reficulris]

Btw radio-Maritsa as identical is the worst argument lol, I have him as esi and don't see them as identicalzzzzzz

[nondescript]

I type both Eliza & applejacks as ESE, so from my perspective, Maritsa, whenever you compare yourself to them, it doesn't bolster your argument for EII but rather undermines it with the comparison to other Fe-leading individuals, and then it makes me think EIE is much more likely for you.

Bottom line of this thread is this - all of the Deltas see how fraudulent Maritsa is, and all the Fe-valuers are trying to be more warm and accepting of her in the 'group' as her 'self-type'.

I am not even Delta(I THINK*) and I see the charade. But every Fe indeed magically comes to the aid. Eliza does indeed have that soft Alpha SF vibe to her for instance.

Ah well.

[Beautiful sky]

I've thought EIE for some time now.

Think what you want your reality will play itself out like mine will.

[Beautiful sky]

I type both Eliza & applejacks as ESE, so from my perspective, Maritsa, whenever you compare yourself to them, it doesn't bolster your argument for EII but rather undermines it with the comparison to other Fe-leading individuals, and then it makes me think EIE is much more likely for you.

Bottom line of this thread is this - all of the Deltas see how fraudulent Maritsa is, and all the Fe-valuers are trying to be more warm and accepting of her in the 'group' as her 'self-type'.

I'm glad that you're using this thread to type everyone else. you aggressive ass hole.

[glam]

on the comments about Radio: it's interesting that people have commented on their similarities, and that he believes himself and Maritsa to be identicals, i didn't know that. Radio is someone whose type i never felt was "obviously" EII either. i've wondered about other types for him (and didn't he consider Beta NF for himself before?) either way, saying that Maritsa is similar to Radio isn't at all a strong argument for her EII-ness, but it does seem like a useful piece of info.

I have never seen her come across as ExFx. I've yet to see her focus on any of the stereotypical Fe things either, I've seen no attempts to create an external feeling atmosphere or anything related to that. As for being Obstinate, I don't see that either, just because she has opinions and expresses them and doesn't change them all the time, it doesn't mean she's an Obstinate type. Same issue with Decisive dichotomy.

I really don't like it when people use Reinins in such a superficial way. The concrete trait lists for those dichotomies are worthless. There is no real proof available here that can be directly linked to any of the above Reinins.

i'm not an expert but i understand the Reinins well enough i think, lol. i'm not a newbie to socionics and understand that that there is more to the dichotomies than the general understanding of the names might imply. whether we agree on how useful they are, or how they might manifest, is another issue. i don't use Reinins on their own, they are more useful to me when considering them with other socionics-related observations. IMO sometimes certain Reinin traits are very obvious in some people, other times not.

Maritsa has been a member on this forum for years, so i've observed a lot of her behavior, and that is why i made the comments that i did - i didn't just throw them out there based on some random cursory impressions. call me wishy-washy, but i think that there are good arguments to be made for various types for Maritsa. if you don't agree that anything about her behavior can be attributed to being Fe, Decisive, Obstinate, or whatever, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. i'll just repeat again that i think Maritsa has some NTR personality traits and behaviors that are probably contributing to how people type her. personally, i think if her being EII was so obvious, we wouldn't have such heated debates like this; this is not the first time people have hotly debated her type. and the fact that so many Delta NFs here see inconsistencies between themselves and Maritsa shouldn't be so easily dismissed either.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

Think what you want your reality will play itself out like mine will.

powerful

[Beautiful sky]

powerful

ok please read the EIE description and think for a minute…just think…

being a merry type EIE are far more likely to engage in activity or interaction that will make them happy and bring on happy feelings. I am doing something that's serious as I take it super seriously. I'm typing people which invites a lot of criticism and a lot of negative emotions. I feel like both ESE and EIE would not like this type of conflicted environments because they can not and won't mitigate or manage emotions of others. I only really display my own emotions and except for getting people upset at their own accord don't cheer them up or do anything else with their emotions.

Filatova describes EIE as
To the EIE life is filled with meaning when it contains emotional heat and dramatic experiences. He guesses which idea will take the imaginations if people and shape their feelings in the correct manner.

Do you think I do things in the "correct manner"? I don't any blind person would tell that.

[Aylen]

powerful

 

ok please read the EIE description and think for a minute…just think…

being a merry type EIE are far more likely to engage in activity or interaction that will make them happy and bring on happy feelings. I am doing something that's serious as I take it super seriously. I'm typing people which invites a lot of criticism and a lot of negative emotions. I feel like both ESE and EIE would not like this type of conflicted environments because they can not and won't mitigate or manage emotions of others. I only really display my own emotions and except for getting people upset at their own accord don't cheer them up or do anything else with their emotions.

Filatova describes EIE as
To the EIE life is filled with meaning when it contains emotional heat and dramatic experiences. He guesses which idea will take the imaginations if people and shape their feelings in the correct manner.

Do you think I do things in the "correct manner"? I don't any blind person would tell that.

I think Kali was commenting on how profound your statement is and not on whether or not you're EIE.

[Beautiful sky]

I think Kali was commenting on how profound your statement is and not on whether or not you're EIE.

I know I'm sorry

[Beautiful sky]

I have not met her.

As for you…if in the future you happen to take some sense and find yourself either an SEE or IEE and you end up in a happy relationship and come begging for my forgiveness I won't be at all surprised. as for now I'm not going to talk to you any more because you're going on a crazy person rampage because I don't type you EII.

[nondescript]

 

I think Kali was commenting on how profound your statement is and not on whether or not you're EIE.

Praise Kali'ma!

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

i am a bit guilty here because i did mention eie in my post and then editted it out >.< you remind me a lot of myself in that lse-eii interview video

[Beautiful sky]

i am a bit guilty here because i did mention eie in my post and then editted it out >.< you remind me a lot of myself in that lse-eii interview video

lol it's okay

[darya]

Ftr, I just stated Radio sees her as his identical, not that I see them as especially similar. Why exactly are they presented as the only non-meek, odd EI, when this board is full of agressive, rude EII's. In fact, Beta NF's here are much sweteer, more polite and friendly to talk to, mostly playfully teasing each other.

[Myst]

I didn't expect anything. I answered a question.
also I think not focussing on motives will blind you to the world. But that's a choice I guess.

(...) Maybe I AM Fe and she's Ne

Haha uh I think you are Ne ego alright. Now I'll leave you go on your own way while I go on mine (in terms of our communication difficulties)

Yes. (I don't think the comparison to Radio is relevant in this thread, since I see differences between him & Maritsa. But I see both you & darya have mentioned him in this thread, so I'll answer your question anyway). In my opinion there is no way Radio is EII. There is no Ne. I had made the argument before for him as ESI. He seems to be paranoid and interpret what others say about him as a personal attack, somewhat Ne-PoLR-esque, even when no personal attacks are being made. He likes to be in control, and he lacks understanding multiple perspectives or seeing the potentiality in things. Consider his stance even in the thread about life outside planet Earth. Nearly everything he says reeks of Ne-PoLR imo. There is no way he's EII, that I'm sure of. He may be something other than ESI, and I'm not 100% sure, but I really don't see him as EII.

Actually, I saw that thread and he seemed to be able to take into account more variables than you did with that statistics. This may or may not be type related.

To clarify your Ti-observance of my use of the word "generally" - my experience with EIIs who disagree with someone or something is that they tend to withdraw from them. They are masters of emotional distance.

Yes, Maritsa does that a lot. She sets boundaries quite clearly.

Everywhere. How are you defining Fe and Ne?

Augusta's definitions, mainly. Show me examples of where you think Maritsa deliberately affects things in the Fe sense instead of Fi.

on the comments about Radio: it's interesting that people have commented on their similarities, and that he believes himself and Maritsa to be identicals, i didn't know that. Radio is someone whose type i never felt was "obviously" EII either. i've wondered about other types for him (and didn't he consider Beta NF for himself before?) either way, saying that Maritsa is similar to Radio isn't at all a strong argument for her EII-ness, but it does seem like a useful piece of info.

i'm not an expert but i understand the Reinins well enough i think, lol. i'm not a newbie to socionics and understand that that there is more to the dichotomies than the general understanding of the names might imply. whether we agree on how useful they are, or how they might manifest, is another issue. i don't use Reinins on their own, they are more useful to me when considering them with other socionics-related observations. IMO sometimes certain Reinin traits are very obvious in some people, other times not.

Maritsa has been a member on this forum for years, so i've observed a lot of her behavior, and that is why i made the comments that i did - i didn't just throw them out there based on some random cursory impressions. call me wishy-washy, but i think that there are good arguments to be made for various types for Maritsa. if you don't agree that anything about her behavior can be attributed to being Fe, Decisive, Obstinate, or whatever, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. i'll just repeat again that i think Maritsa has some NTR personality traits and behaviors that are probably contributing to how people type her. personally, i think if her being EII was so obvious, we wouldn't have such heated debates like this; this is not the first time people have hotly debated her type. and the fact that so many Delta NFs here see inconsistencies between themselves and Maritsa shouldn't be so easily dismissed either.

We don't disagree on much really, I'm well aware of how there are always some non-socionical factors at play for anyone, not just Maritsa. I am sure some behavioural aspects about Maritsa *can* be attributed to whatever Reinins but that on its own is rather meaningless. I'm not worried about Maritsa not being a simple EII stereotype, this also does not mean she cannot be EII.

Oh and beta NF for Radio, well, I heard the EIE typing brought up for Radio before and I seriously tried to consider it but eventually I ended up at "no, not EIE".

All in all, I really do not see why it's so hard to understand that people of the same type are going to present very differently in terms of concrete traits as type is to be strictly determined by variables of information processing. If it's easier then please just consider there are only 16 types and 7 billion people. Do you expect them to be all that similar. You = general you, actually.

As for you…if in the future you happen to take some sense and find yourself either an SEE or IEE and you end up in a happy relationship and come begging for my forgiveness I won't be at all surprised. as for now I'm not going to talk to you any more because you're going on a crazy person rampage because I don't type you EII.

Lol you assume motives in a fashion similar to how @Subteigh does it. Looking for personal motives instead of impersonal reasoning.

[golden]

Re. "a stereotype of the EIE as a cult leader: they are quite capable of building grand systems with little internal consistency, backed with little other than "inner truths" and/or forms of special pleadings, or the influence of some other figure," Myst said:

They (EIEs) however present it very differently from how Maritsa does it.

I don't know what differences you see, Myst, but I find EIEs to have strong rhetorical skills that Maritsa lacks. As a species we tend to seek the most accurate and effective terms, and to weave a line of argument that anticipates and even incorporates objections from the so-called other side.

One thing I see Maritsa do that to me seems strong among Delta rationals is a form of argument in which their counter-arguments seem unrelated to what came before. Some people in this thread conclude when Maritsa does this she is refusing to understand, or cannot understand, what others say. Whether that's true or not I can't determine. However, I can't think of any EIEs who would risk coming across like that, because EIEs are too aware of how their contributions to a dialogue fit into the scheme of what precedes and will follow. Our "bad" rhetorical behaviors more likely involve saying something slippery or evasive that takes what someone else said and twists it to our own ends.* Maritsa doesn't do that because she doesn't see other people's conversational content as something she can use. She's too oriented to what's happening in her own world.

ETA: *Also saying things with double or triple meanings.

[Eliza Thomason]

I type both Eliza & applejacks as ESE, so from my perspective, Maritsa, whenever you compare yourself to them, it doesn't bolster your argument for EII but rather undermines it with the comparison to other Fe-leading individuals, and then it makes me think EIE is much more likely for you.

Bottom line of this thread is this - all of the Deltas see how fraudulent Maritsa is, and all the Fe-valuers are trying to be more warm and accepting of her in the 'group' as her 'self-type'.

[Eliza Thomason]

I think, one light, it is not hard to see how she operates as being 'sans strong intuition', regardless of what type the observer is. There's a fair amount of self absorption and lack of emphasis on seeing things from other people's situation - or trying to communicate from it - or even concern about them at times ... which is often stereotypically associated with "intuition", sometimes wrongly so.

I guess I think we are all self absorbed from time to time. I am, today. Yes, the lack of seeing things from other's situations, I think that can happen when there is mistrust of to whom you are speaking, and you shut down from them. That's just my thought on that.

I think Maritsa handles (negative) things in an extremely intuitive way regarding being childlike/infantile or even victim-ish. It's kind of a pouting, and doesn't really feel to be along the lines of an Se or Si ego person.

Yes, Fi,NE ego...

[Eliza Thomason]

We probably are duals and I'm as dualized as one can be as we've been together since what seems forever.
Husband still puts up with me no matter what! He is my best friend in this world and It's very easy being together, we can discuss anything, make and enact on future plans, joke, play, tease, forgive and everything else.

I see that @Maritsa linked you a post I made on ILI female and SEE male. Hope that is a little helpful on the subject and that your husband's daughter if she is an ILI type attracts herself an awesome SEE.

Wow, that's awesome. I really, really want that for my husband's daughter. She really deserves it. So I will really pray for that. Though, it might be helpful to know where she might be likely to find an ILI guy.. any suggestions?

[Eliza Thomason]

You say sometimes as though it was infrequent and mild, rather than frequent aggressive haranguing that is comparable no other individual on the history of this forum. She certainly does not have a natural state of restfulness and inner harmony...she is CONSTANTLY hassling others.

I post a thread recently in Anything Goes with photos from throughout my life...she instantly uses it as a resource for attempting to type me elsewhere on the forum. She starts another thread on her type and responds negatively to neutral comments. She starts a thread requesting advice on an intertype relationship issue...instantly escalates things in response to my posts, as though she was responding to an existential threat.

Okay, thanks for explaining where you are coming from. (and I did not see your "anything goes" post...)

It is part of a long history of such negative behaviours carried out by her, including for example haranguing people in the Delta Lounge thread (and the Delta subforum at large), as well as threads like the Unofficial Members Picture thread...there is an unspoken rule (if not explicitly invoked from time to time) that you do not disrupt such threads with battle-typing or any other hostilities: she was repeatedly gone against this over the years and seems utterly oblivious to this code. There are several individuals who have caused no offence to anyone in the years they have been on this forum only to been hassled and burned by Maritsa. She simply cannot let people be.

I see. As to the code - maybe she did get not the memo! (I will let her speak for herself on that.)

For me, I like thinking about the psychology and the theory of typing... and then I also have this belief that its best to know the truth about things (as I strongly believe that the truth sets you free, and that's in big AND small matters), and so I do believe this about about even typing as well . And I am an enthusiast for Socionics relationship typing. So the way I see it, if you have the wrong type, you are missing out on all the benefits of understanding type relations. So, coming from that stance, I also have challenged persons' types here on 16t, having no idea that this might anger them, or that I was breaking a code. And I was quite surprised at the reaction. I have since learned to tread carefully in this area. If a person does not want to entertain another type for themselves then that's fine with me. My ideas are really not as important as a persons comfort and I have no problem dropping the subject.

As to my thoughts on religion, I don't think hating fundamentalist savagery such as the doctrine of eternal damnation and being in favour of the scientific method are specifically indicative of type in the 21st century.

I think you should hate fundamental savagery too! But as to eternal damnation, its a reality. Perfect justice means that that's the fate for some. I mean, like I said in our discussion, a God would not be a Just God who MADE a person stay with Him, who is all good, for eternity, if that person HATED good, right? (We'll have to get back to our discussion eventually).

I agree we should aspire to be positive, hence my surprise to learn you still follow Catholic doctrine.

Yes, lets be positive. Lets think on things that are good and right and true and beautiful. I like that.

And I will be Catholic my entire life you can be sure of that. It is the completion of what I have looked for my entire life, it is a Pearl of Great Price. But, I get it - it does look like a small, small dark place from the outside. But inside - Oh, if you could see it from inside! Its vast, and full of riches - spiritual riches, that is. So many that it would take eons of lifetimes to plunder...

[Eliza Thomason]

No. She lives in CA and me in CT... two different sides of this vast country of ours. Also I have not met anyone in person here. Have you?

[Hays]

No. She lives in CA and me in CT... two different sides of this vast country of ours. Also I have not met anyone in person here. Have you?

I take it that the above is in response to my question:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1108000

Two past members here were my daughters. My son even has an account that he periodically checks as does my husband but outside of family I've not met any forum member in person.

[Eliza Thomason]

Wow, that's awesome. I really, really want that for my husband's daughter. She really deserves it. So I will really pray for that. Though, it might be helpful to know where she might be likely to find an ILI guy.. any suggestions?

@Shay , I should have corrected myself - she is a SEE herself - needs an ILI husband! I thought you might be able to guess an ILI guy's whereabouts, though...

[Eliza Thomason]

I take it that the above is in response to my question:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1108000

Two past members here were my daughters. My son even has an account that he periodically checks as does my husband but outside of family I've not met any forum member in person.

Oh, that's cool. I keep hinting to get my SLE son to look into this but I don't press it either as I have been too chatty here about his Dad. I pray for him to find an IEI Dual someday to marry... Did any of your dear offspring ever find or stumble upon a Dual relationship?

[Hays]

@Shay , I should have corrected myself - she is a SEE herself - needs an ILI husband! I thought you might be able to guess an ILI guy's whereabouts, though...

Well there's no place like their current abode to find an ILI.
I am of course from a different time and place to your partner's daughter's potential dual mate and the opposite gender so overall I would just say that besides the ILI's usual homebodyness trait or workplace location that it's likely you could find them in some quiet spiritual or mystical environment on occasion such as a church or even in the occult and the virtual world, online gaming, computer games in general, participating in forums or just tapping away at the keyboard.
They may be the quiet main 'prophet' or 'communicater in the spiritual'.
Expect them to be the first to read how life's events play out.
Not to forget that they will be out and about with their friends at times too doing some socialising at a favourite cafe or such.

[Olduvai]

@Maritsa as EII is such a fucking joke. Or at least it would be, if it wasn't so pathetic. @Subteigh and @William absolutely nailed it. @Maritsa, you're not fooling anyone. Not even yourself, I don't think.

[nondescript]

@Maritsa as EII is such a fucking joke. Or at least it would be, if it wasn't so pathetic. @Subteigh and @William absolutely nailed it. @Maritsa, you're not fooling anyone. Not even yourself, I don't think.

Maritsa is actually quite maso. Both ways actually, from the way she posts she sounds quite SnM. She constantly provokes just in order she could rebuke. I still stand by my thoughts that just the act of rebuking whatever is a clear sign of ESI IM, but what do I know.

SadoMaso type final .

[Persephone]

I don't think that Maritsa is a sensory type.

[Eliza Thomason]

@Maritsa as EII is such a fucking joke. Or at least it would be, if it wasn't so pathetic. @Subteigh and @William absolutely nailed it. @Maritsa, you're not fooling anyone. Not even yourself, I don't think.

No.

Maritsa is actually quite maso. Both ways actually, from the way she posts she sounds quite SnM. She constantly provokes just in order she could rebuke. I still stand by my thoughts that just the act of rebuking whatever is a clear sign of ESI IM, but what do I know.

SadoMaso type final .

Naw, this is coming from your own imagination (and whatever you did to that.).

I totally get her reactions, and I do see how they may seem jarring to others, and I see how it can be misjudged to seem some crazy thing by others. You are missing that she really is a Fi type and she does feel hurt deeply when treated unkindly. She might not seem like it when she is fighting back quite sharply (basically giving back what she has gotten), but its in reaction to having been hurt deeply, IMO. I am saying this not from any conversational feedback with her, but from my observation. (as an IEE Psychologist! I "get" these things.) And yes, INFjs do have this martyr-like side that appears certainly from time to time, but we all have our "sides" that raise others' brows at times, don't we? Better a martyr than an ogre, IMO.

Some have questioned if its because I am particular friends with Maritsa (whom I do like) or because she and I discuss these things that I defend her here. Its not that. Its this sense of justice that rears up in me when I feel that something is unfair, or that someone is maligned unjustly. That's when I don't mind a bit getting into the fray and saying exactly what I think is right and true. And at these times I can care less if people think bad of me forever for it. Standing for what is just and right means way more to me than that.

Anyway, nondescript, I think you and certain others here are misunderstanding because you are from a different quadra.

I was thinking recently how I have had reactions, internal quiet ones, that are negative about a person's words or actions, and then later I have more understanding of where he/she is coming from (and my type constantly seeks understanding, so I mull these things). Reading about how different quadras react to different quadras, I can see, in retrospect, how those initial reactions are in fact typical reactions that my quadra might have to that person's quadra. I was thinking of a particular example and I will post it in a Reinin thread concerning Merry/Serious, later.

And, as to reactions to people, I would like to explain something else. Temperament influences two parts of this:

1. How quickly you get an emotional/judgmental reactionwhich is either on of these two:
a. a strong and immediate reaction
b. a slow burn that takes time to build up

2. How long that emotional reaction lasts is either one of these two:
a. it wears off quick
b. it tends to stay and hold for long

There are four basic temperaments, that also Jung used as a basis in his theories, and each of these has their feeling/judgment reactions that work in this way, according to the above chart I just made.

Sanguine - 1a & 2a
Choleric - 1a & 2b
Melancholic - 1b & 2b
Phlegmatic - 1b & 2a

This is not my own idea by any means, but my own way of explaining that which I previously learned. I am a Sanguine, so I have that STRONG emotional/judging reaction to a person or event at times. But as a Sanguine, I get over it, too. Its forgive and forget pretty easily in ordinary circumstances for me. As an IEE Sanguine, I keep my emotional reaction to myself so people don't always know I am having this big reactions to a thing (unless I can't hide! I can hide here when I write, but in person, if I cannot turn away and someone can sees my face, my face frequently betrays me! My feelings are there. If it pointed otu, I often will immediate minimize it. Because I prefer to keep my reaction to myself, particularly when its negative, because I know I usually get over it with time and understanding, and I DON't want to deal with the fall-out of things i said or did when I was upset. On the other hand, a SEE is a Sanguine, too, and they DO express their reaction. Also they are stronger in Fi, so they KNOW what they feel, whereas I need to think about it for a bit by myself ("why did I react to that person like that? Is it really an offense? Or does it just remind me of some other bad memory? etc"). But in typical cases, the SEE gets over their initial reaction; does't hate forever eh person they first hated, i.e.

Once I saw a chart of each of the 16types lined up to which if the four temperaments they are. I don't know offhand which they all are. I will edit this and post a link it if I find it.

But question - nondescript: it seems odd that you consider her ESI... To you, does it feel as if Maritsa is a kindred spirit; that she thinks, acts, and communicates like you? That it seems as if you both stem from the same sorts of internal motivations? That her strengths and weaknesses are like yours? That correlation between you two is not something I have seen. I'm asking because it appears that you self-type ESI. (Though I don't get an "ESI vibe" from you, but then, I am not saying I have my own other idea of your type, either).