Firefly and Serenity

[marooned]

I agree he cares about his crew, but if I recall correctly, he also has no problem with putting them in the midst of danger. And is his shunning of Simon and River Fi-derived, or based on the logical merits of spending resources on people who are threatening his self-interest? Note that he only keeps (or appears to) Simon around as a doctor. Fi-exclusion, or Te-necessity?

I think he has some issues with Simon to say the least, and has a soft spot for River, actually sort of for Simon as well because he's so "green." But he 'shuns' them because they're not in his "family" group. He is not as loyal to them as he is to the others who he has been with far longer and knows much better. So I would see it more as "Fi-exclusion"... but SEE also values Te... which makes sense with the practical purposes part of it. I see part of the tendency to get in risky situations just as he's a somewhat impulsive risk taker. Sometimes he acts before he thinks.

I think that a lot of his actions involve facing the "harsh reality" of situations and dealing with them... there usually isn't a perfect way to deal with them. The point is he's a 'looks out for "me and mine"' sort and Simon and River aren't quite in that category... they're only about half way in, and at least at the beginning of Serenity he could still easily be rid of them... as long as he doesn't feel (or can deny he feels) much of a connection with them.

For some reason, although his behavior isn't consistent per se, his ethics do seem pretty consistent to me.

What type would you see him as FMH?

[force my hand]

What type would you see him as FMH?

Logical extrovert at a superficial glance. Though I think you're making a good case for an ethical type. "Me and mine" is a classic quote for him. Maybe SEE? Unfortunately, I've never developed a feel for SEEs.

[Logos]

I think he has some issues with Simon to say the least, and has a soft spot for River, actually sort of for Simon as well because he's so "green." But he 'shuns' them because they're not in his "family" group. He is not as loyal to them as he is to the others who he has been with far longer and knows much better. So I would see it more as "Fi-exclusion"... but SEE also values Te... which makes sense with the practical purposes part of it. I see part of the tendency to get in risky situations just as he's a somewhat impulsive risk taker. Sometimes he acts before he thinks.

I think that a lot of his actions involve facing the "harsh reality" of situations and dealing with them... there usually isn't a perfect way to deal with them. The point is he's a 'looks out for "me and mine"' sort and Simon and River aren't quite in that category... they're only about half way in, and at least at the beginning of Serenity he could still easily be rid of them... as long as he doesn't feel (or can deny he feels) much of a connection with them.

For some reason, although his behavior isn't consistent per se, his ethics do seem pretty consistent to me.

What type would you see him as FMH?

Part of the problem with Simon and River is that they are outside of Mal's world which represents a barrier of sorts he has to overcome. They were from the heartlands of the Alliance and were mostly Alliance supporters. They are rich upper-class and Mal is a rural outsider and Independent. Furthermore, I do not think that Mal fully trusts them because he is not sure if they are there of their own choice. Everyone else is part of the crew because of their own choice, but Simon and River are primarily there because they are on the run, so this keeps Mal from being able to completely think of them as family as opposed to temporary guests. Simon and Mal have a great deal of mutual respect and a certain amount of attachment to each other, but they each have their conflicts of interest that cause them to butt heads. Simon's priority has been River's safety whereas for Mal it is self-preservation and that of the crew.

[Aleksei]

Mal: SEE-Se, 6w7 so/sp
Inara: IEE-Fi, 2w1 sx/so
River: ILI-Ni, 5w6 sp/sx
Simon: LII-Ne, 6w5 sp/so
Kaylee: ESE-Si, 7w6 sx/sp
Zoe: SLE-Ti, 6w5 sp/so
Wash: IEI-Fe, 9w1 sx/so
Jayne: SLE-Se, 8w7 sp/sx
Book: EII-Fi, 2w1 so/sx

Wash and Zoe, and Kaylee and Simon, are all clearly made for each other. Mal and Inara are quite obviously not duals, and their relationship never has and never will work out.

[marooned]

Mal and Inara are quite obviously not duals, and their relationship never has and never will work out.

I agree with this (although I probably wouldn't say "never will" work out). I would also probably say that they're both to some extent "unavailable," particularly Inara.

I edited my opening post since my opinions have changed about these since the last time I posted in this thread.

[Krig the Viking]

One of the best shows ever made, in my opinion. I had formed some opinions on the sociotypes, but that was a while ago and my understanding and typing ability has improved since then. Let's see...

Malcolm: LSE. A very pragmatic guy, and the sort of "everyman" that LSEs do so well, albeit a wounded everyman. He's generally pretty easy-going, but when pushed his Demonstrative Se comes out (e.g. the scene where he tells Jayne to "walk away from this table"). Also, I think if he were an Se type, he would get along with Jayne better, as opposed to the uneasy truce that they normally seem to have. But you don't get a better example of nice, practical Te than that scene where Mal just walks onto the ship and shoots the guy holding River hostage, without even breaking stride.

Inara: I used to think she was SEI or IEI, but now I actually think ESI might be the best typing for her. She's very self-controlled and deliberate in her actions, suggesting an IJ type. She's very focused on projecting a perfect image, and wielding the power of her sexuality for her own ends, both of which suggest Se. And her whole job is based on forming relationships with her clients (not just sex), so Fi makes sense. Also, the whole "moth and flame" aspect of Semi-Duality works for her and Mal.

River: I think ILI or IEI make sense -- Ni is the most obvious element. I kind of want her to be IEI, because her relationship with Jayne is hilarious enough to be Beta-style Duality.

Simon: LII. I've argued else where for this, it seems fairly apparent.
Kaylee: ESE. I think the arguments in favour of ESE in this thread are sufficient for now.

Zoe: I had previously typed her as LSI, but with what I know now SLI might make sense. I might peg her as N-SLI, the same as Kimball Cho on "the Mentalist", or Joe Friday from "Dragnet". This would make it likely that Mal is D-LSE -- the best possible Mirror relationship, and a common subtype for leaders.

Wash: I had previously typed him as EIE, but that was mainly because I had typed Zoe as LSI. IEE does make a lot more sense.

Jayne: SLE. His Supervision of Simon is quite obvious. I keep thinking of that scene where he and Simon meet in a doorway, and Jayne just keeps going and plows Simon aside. Base Se vs. Vulnerable Se.

Book: I honestly have no idea. Introverted, certainly. EII is an interesting suggestion. The problem is that he's so mysterious, you're never sure what his real personality is.

Wash and Zoe, and Kaylee and Simon, are all clearly made for each other. Mal and Inara are quite obviously not duals, and their relationship never has and never will work out.

I may not agree with all your typings, but I do agree with this.

Edit: Addendum: I would say that the overall tone of the show is Delta/Alpha.

[Aleksei]

@Krig:

There's no way Mal is a D-subtype, and I seriously doubt him to be a Te-base. The man is, by his own admission, completely directionless. A leaf in the wind. He, further, doesn't really hate Jayne and neither do the rest the crew (sans Simon).

He's also not a terribly practical man, and he feels very bound to his crew; in a stronger way than a Te-Ego would be. Te-egos want to connect with people (Fi Suggestive), but their Te need for efficiency and practicality gets in the way. Mal is known for putting the welfare of his crew above practical considerations, and is aware of when their limits are stretched ("You tell me right now little Kaylee, you really think you can do this?"). Not to mention he spared Jayne at the last minute, simply because Jayne showed shame for what he'd done. I think a Te-base (especially one who didn't like or appreciate Jayne) would have left him in that airlock and left, or just thrown him out rather than kill him.

Wash and Zoe being in the same quadra as Jayne makes perfect sense, given that they are just about the people most favorable to Jayne on Serenity (well, aside from Kaylee, who just loves everyone). They don't consider him an epic dumbass like Simon, and they aren't even wary of him like Mal and Inara. Zoe seems to like him, and Wash just finds mocking him amusing. Further, Wash can't really be anything but an valuer given that he does practically nothing but try to lighten the mood. Example:

Mal: Define "interesting."
Wash: "Oh God, oh God we're all gonna die"?

And Zoe loves that shit (Fe-suggestive).

I seriously doubt Inara's any kind of Sensory type. She's a very long-term planner, and gives off a sort of a "mystical mentor" vibe.

[Krig the Viking]

There's no way Mal is a D-subtype, and I seriously doubt him to be a Te-base. The man is, by his own admission, completely directionless. A leaf in the wind. He, further, doesn't really hate Jayne and neither do the rest the crew -- they just don't like him. Their problem with him is more along the lines of him being stupid (NTR) and a rude self-serving asshole (Fi/Fe conflict).

You're right, it's possible that Mal is a C-subtype. I'm not settled on the subtypes just yet.

[Edit: I checked my master list, and I see that I previously had Mal down as a C-LSE. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I said he was D-LSE -- a momentary lapse, I suppose. ]

People don't normally hate members of the opposite Quadra, particularly if they share a club. Often Contrary and Quasi-Identical types can get along fairly well, especially if they focus on work.

A significant part of the crew's discomfort with Jayne is that he's too aggressive. In my opinion there is also a significant Si/Se conflict, as well as the Fi/Fe one.

He's also not a terribly practical man, and he feels very bound to his crew; in a stronger way than a Te-Ego would be. Te-egos want to connect with people (Fi Suggestive), but their Te need for efficiency and practicality gets in the way. Mal is known for putting the welfare of his crew above practical considerations, and is aware of when their limits are stretched ("You tell me right now little Kaylee, you really think you can do this?"). Not to mention he spared Jayne at the last minute, simply because Jayne showed shame for what he'd done. I think a Te-base (especially one who didn't like or appreciate Jayne) would have left him in that airlock and left, or just thrown him out rather than kill him.

What you're seeing there is classic Caregiver behaviour. LSEs can't open up emotionally very well, but they can make up for it by taking care of people's physical needs. Mal never talks about his feelings, but in LSE fashion he shows that he cares by doing practical things to take care of his loved ones. The "You tell me right now little Kaylee, you really think you can do this?" line shows this typical concern for others' physical welfare, coupled with a strong ability to assess others' capabilities in a practical Te sense.

I do agree that Zoe is his mirror, but given that I find it doubtful for him to be LSE, it's probably more plausible that Zoe is ESI. Which makes sense -- she doesn't really appear to be independent or self-serving enough for Beta ST. Given that, Wash is probably her kindred (EII).

Zoe displays emotion less than Mal does (except when she's alone with Wash). She seems pretty obviously Fe-PoLR to me, or at least 1-d Fe.

Also, I don't see how anyone could type Wash as an Introvert. Other than Kaylee he's the most emotionally extraverted character on the show!

I seriously doubt she's any kind of Sensory type. She's a very long-term planner, and gives off a sort of a "mystical mentor" vibe.

I'm not as sure of Inara's type as I am of the others. I considered IEI for a while, but the intertype relations didn't make sense. I could see someone making the case that she's EII, but for now I think ESI makes more sense.

You'll note, she's not so much a mystical mentor, as she is a relational mentor. She doesn't talk about destiny and the future and the spiritual significance of things, she talks about people and relationships.

Now that I think of it, she could be an Ni-Harmonizing subtype. That would explain the calm, serene energy she has. It would also jive well with Mal being a Creative subtype, as I speculated above. Hmm.

[Aleksei]

A significant part of the crew's discomfort with Jayne is that he's too aggressive. In my opinion there is also a significant Si/Se conflict, as well as the Fi/Fe one.

I don't see Si/Se conflict at all, and now that I think of it the only ones with Fi issues regarding him are Mal and Inara (both of whom are wary of him). As I mentioned in my last post (post-edit -- I actually sorta switched that around on you; my apologies), Zoe and Wash have no issue with Jayne.

What you're seeing there is classic Caregiver behaviour. LSEs can't open up emotionally very well, but they can make up for it by taking care of people's physical needs. Mal never talks about his feelings, but in LSE fashion he shows that he cares by doing practical things to take care of his loved ones. The "You tell me right now little Kaylee, you really think you can do this?" line shows this typical concern for others' physical welfare, coupled with a strong ability to assess others' capabilities in a practical Te sense.

But he does understand others' feelings, and acts accordingly. Like in Heart of Gold, where he pretended to have fallen asleep rather than slept with Inara's hooker friend because he knew it'd hurt Inara's feelings. he also has an "honor before reason" ethos very typical of Se-Fi, as shown in Shindig -- "I'll protect my lady's honor, and kick the ass of anyone who insults her." Very SEE.

I've had similar debates on MBTI forums (in MBTI, Mal is an ENTP). The fact is that Nathan Fillon is LSE and is incapable of properly portraying characters that aren't Te-base. So Mal comes off as LSE himself.

Zoe displays emotion less than Mal does (except when she's alone with Wash). She seems pretty obviously Fe-PoLR to me, or at least 1-d Fe.

Yeah, I was wrong about ESI (and right originally).