The Fundamental Empirical Basis for Socionics

[Nexus]

I would just like to add that I believe anal/accepting types are more likely to receive benefit/supervision, whereas oral/creative subtypes are more likely to produce it. Also, note that introversion is defined as extroversion-creating, introversion-accepting, whereas extroverts are the opposite; from here it was pretty easy to deduce that I am in fact LIE, possibly oral subtype...

i see no reason to pull oral / anal into the matter, even if some level of correspondence exists. At the very least you haven't justified it in what you've written. If the subtypes end up entirely correspondent to oral / anal, it's still questionable whether cross referencing paradigms makes sense.

The qualitative description of quadra attributes is good. The assignment of a starting point to the order of information flow is arbitrary, though. Alpha isn't a starting point, it's just accumulative of information. The information itself is observed in the world. You can choose to filter the information in whichever direction seems best to you. For a gamma type, having a critical eye means not writing something off too quickly; i.e., being aware of possibilities. (lol @ this part).

Also, a progression of information makes an assumption on the nature of the information; the information is qualitative and measurable. Switching this assumption around (presumably measuring information in waves) could easily have gamma as the accumulation in a cycle, and alpha as the first regression in the cycle.

Last thing is.. I don't see you as INTp-Ni. Correct me if I'm wrong: This cycle business has led you to that belief? That your critical eye necessarily places you in Gamma?

It makes perfect sense that anal types focus more on what they accept and oral types on what they produce. Information follows the direction of process result; result types somewhat randomly create finished products in an unfocused manner while totally unaware of what they are doing, whereas process types will focus their unconscious on one phenomena and become completely involved only in metabolizing it away without ever realizing any particular aspect of their own results.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that you have to start over from scratch, since you seem totally lost. You've been LSI, LIE, SLE, ILI and your explanations of socionics deviate from what socionics is. How hard can it be... In the beginning everone could determine their type with dichotomies but nowadays there are oral and anal things necessary? I don't see any improvement in that, actually it makes things as confusing as possible.

There is more to the conscious mind than a random distribution of cognitive preferences...

Could I ask you to elaborate on this part? (i'm just curious if there's something about the nature/nurture of socionic type to be learned here). Cheers.

Your Te always was pretty "extensive" I thought.

I had believed that fundamental emotional ties to IM associated with the dopamine reward-path and the id were responsible for the higer cognitive order, but I am not entirely sure...however, I do know identical twins that have different types; the truth is, usually people who grew up together had similar personalities because they produced and responded to the same type of information, which was conditioned into their minds. In my family, which is predominantly beta, me and my sister are gammas; I have always been something of a free thinker. I believe that many aspects of VI, such as facial expressions and facial development, might be tied to bloodflow and muscle use adapted in the brain to the types of physiological accommodations that support a particular IM in all habits and activities and on a daily basis.

Quadra progression has been around for a long time, although it goes in and out of favor.

I believe that you have overlooked the profundity of this thread; quadra progression is a necessary consequence of the types of cognitive structures that exist in the mind, which mostly exist to accommodate a personal preference with respect to the speed and manner in which new information is integrated. It is the basis for the entrenched ego/superid 'walls' that people put up to accommodate their own id/superego biases that eventually leads to inter-quadra conflicts, as betas and deltas focus on different methods of agency (immediate versus prolonged) and alphas and gammas on different approaches of manifestation (dogmatic versus critical).

Holy fuck, Huitzi. Maybe you are ILI o_0

Sorry, I know quicklier is not a word, but I prefer it to quicker.

[crazedrat]

It makes perfect sense that anal types focus more on what they accept and oral types on what they produce.

You only responded to the first paragraph. And what you said was addressed in that first paragraph. So ignoring that there are two other fronts here, I will make this part more clear to you:
Whether there is correspondence between anal/oral and the subtype distinction is not important. The only value in bringing the words oral/anal in as descriptors is to limit the distinction of subtype to the paradigm of psychoanalytics.
There are two problems with doing this.
1: it is highly probable subtypes can be associated with both psychoanalytics, and much more than psychoanalytics.
2: it is not entirely established that all aspects of oral/anal are associated with the single discriminatory factor of subtype. Oral/anal could very well be subtype, and much more than subtype.

You can make an association without overstepping either of those boundaries. But if you're going to make an association, you must phrase it as one. This means you use the regular notation for subtypes, and then state your associations.
Lastly, even if both the above points were satisfied, and the psychoanalytics vs. subtype distinctions were an identical phenomena in every respect, I would still oppose the mixing of paradigms for purely linguistic reasons. (And if you believe language has any empirical basis at all, you will acknowledge both points I mentioned cannot possibly be satisfied)

[leftylib]

[QUOTE=Huitzilopochtli;558806]I would just like to add that I believe anal/accepting types are more likely to receive benefit/supervision, whereas oral/creative subtypes are more likely to produce it. Also, note that introversion is defined as extroversion-creating, introversion-accepting, whereas extroverts are the opposite; from here it was pretty easy to deduce that I am in fact LIE, possibly oral subtype...


I think youre likely INTJ, too.

[leftylib]

I would just like to add that I believe anal/accepting types are more likely to receive benefit/supervision, whereas oral/creative subtypes are more likely to produce it. Also, note that introversion is defined as extroversion-creating, introversion-accepting, whereas extroverts are the opposite; from here it was pretty easy to deduce that I am in fact LIE, possibly oral subtype...

P.S. Sorry for the choppy replies to one post, but just wanted to say that as an ENFJ I am much more comfortable benefitting than I am being benefitted in response to your oral/creative statements here.

[crazedrat]

for future reference make one post using the edit button

[lefty]

for future reference make one post using the edit button

i supervise you - which means im biting my tongue from ripping you a new asshole right now.
so for future referance - why dont you find something better to do.

Lefty
ENFJ
4w5

[crazedrat]

you supervising me doesn't mean i am deeply affected by your bitchathons. when an ENFj hones in on me it means i roll my eyes and try to escape the situation as quickly as possible so that i don't have to listen to them. i realize i cannot reason with an ENFj. I don't even try. I've seen them mad, and they're like toddlers. You can't reason with a toddler.
The real reason i told you to compile those posts is it makes it easier for me to skip over your meaningless babble if it's all in one post. the brief moment where i comprehend what you've said, after i've read it, spikes a tangible annoyance in me. this is enough of an annoyance for me to ask you to compile your posts into one. that is where my motivation comes from. i know you have troubles organizing things with Si polr, and that's probably why you're sensitive to me telling you to organize things. i think you will find it is very quick and easy to use the edit button.

[leftylib]

you supervising me doesn't mean i am deeply affected by your bitchathons. when an ENFj hones in on me it means i roll my eyes and try to escape the situation as quickly as possible so that i don't have to listen to them. i realize i cannot reason with an ENFj. I don't even try. I've seen them mad, and they're like toddlers. You can't reason with a toddler.
The real reason i told you to compile those posts is it makes it easier for me to skip over your meaningless babble if it's all in one post. the brief moment where i comprehend what you've said, after i've read it, spikes a tangible annoyance in me. this is enough of an annoyance for me to ask you to compile your posts into one. that is where my motivation comes from. i know you have troubles organizing things with Si polr, and that's probably why you're sensitive to me telling you to organize things. i think you will find it is very quick and easy to use the edit button.

no me supervising you means i contains depths you dont and that youre not likely to comprehend either and that all your study of socionics is wasted because youll still try to chastise the type that supervises you. but you know what? you can pointlessly chastise the type that supervises you all you want, because i'm more interested in the topic of the thread than i am in some petty bid for power.

lefty

[crazedrat]

'all my study of socionics is wasted because i chastise the type that supervises me'.
no. i dont study socionics to try to transcend my type. i study it to understand other peoples thoughts so that i can manipulate them / avoid unfavorable scenarios.
the way to transcend your type is through duality, not through compliance with your supervisor. compliance with the supervisor is only enslavement. the real way to achieve duality and transcendence isn't through intellectual realization either; and studying socionics could never provide transcendence. it's through the experience of duality with the world and with people.
'depths of knowledge i don't understand'. it's annoying you don't realize how circular this is, and that you inflate the statement with choice language.. since everyone supervises another type. every type is aware of something the other types aren't; that's the basis of socionics. supervisor/supervisee relations has to do with values, not higher or lower levels of awareness.

[Nexus]

i supervise you - which means im biting my tongue from ripping you a new asshole right now.
so for future referance - why dont you find something better to do.

Lefty
ENFJ
4w5

Well, you do seem like the oral subtype. Anyway I have been pretty unwavering on LIE lately (probably anal subtype).

[leftylib]

Well, you do seem like the oral subtype. Anyway I have been pretty unwavering on LIE lately (probably anal subtype).

i mean this oral anal stuff is straight up Freudian psychology, right? I'm just asking, because I've heard Freud's psychology is no longer taught and I think it's weird how people are willing to discredit the biological basis for psychology now. I've stated before and you may already realize that Freud's nephew integrated his uncle's theories into marketing and made it very powerful - and I feel like people don't comprehend marketing's pull on them and they should be more aware of it. And I've read some author's like Karen Horney who wrote about neurotics and there are just so many therapists who integrated Freud's ideas into their work I think it's silly if people think Freud isn't relevant anymore. I think the dialetical answer is both Freud and Jung's theories where we recognize that we're composed of a body and and abstract spiritual/mystical influences & uses of symbolism etc.

Also I hate to sound stupid, but is there any reason why if it is based on Freud that it doesn't include any other of the stages of development i.e. phalic etc Psychosexual development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also I think your explanation of the differences between benefit and supervision is interesting.

[Nexus]

i mean this oral anal stuff is straight up Freudian psychology, right? I'm just asking, because I've heard Freud's psychology is no longer taught and I think it's weird how people are willing to discredit the biological basis for psychology now. I've stated before and you may already realize that Freud's nephew integrated his uncle's theories into marketing and made it very powerful - and I feel like people don't comprehend marketing's pull on them and they should be more aware of it. And I've read some author's like Karen Horney who wrote about neurotics and there are just so many therapists who integrated Freud's ideas into their work I think it's silly if people think Freud isn't relevant anymore. I think the dialetical answer is both Freud and Jung's theories where we recognize that we're composed of a body and and abstract spiritual/mystical influences & uses of symbolism etc.

Also I hate to sound stupid, but is there any reason why if it is based on Freud that it doesn't include any other of the stages of development i.e. phalic etc Psychosexual development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also I think your explanation of the differences between benefit and supervision is interesting.

Thank you. Jung was Freud's pupil, so it is impossible to say that Jung was not highly influenced by Freud, at least initially (thus forming the foundation for his later work whether he agreed with it or not). In humans the anus actually develops before the mouth (see Embryological origins of the mouth and anus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), which makes sense as the embryo absorbs nutrients much as a colony of bacteria from the womb, and disperses the waste like a plant in one direction to reduce the amount of absorption surface area affected by the excrement (in sea creatures, the sea approximates the content of the womb, skin eventually develops and gills/respiratiration, mouths/digestion, and hearts/circulation are used to metabolize and channel nutrients).