The energy model. (Model G)

[mu4]

@mu4 whatever you call it, it seems a bit strange to make a new model without trying to integrate it or reconcile it with the existing one. If you don't do so they are inevitably going to diverge. This can be done very easily at the structural level: simply have 16 functions. That way you get both the "information-flow" (supervision) rings and the "energy-flow" (benefit) rings.

It is two models and 16 functions however the information elements remain the same. These two models attempt to measure different characteristic of the information metabolism and neither is incompatible with the other.

I think what you've laid out is exactly what Model G and Model A are, the connection points are information elements and not functions.

As far as psychic energy
It is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_(psychological)

This is a very important concept in psycho-dynamic psychology which socionics is part of.

Information preference doesn't say anything about psychic energy, but rather our reaction to information which contains psychic energy, you can say the information produced by ourselves and other individuals contain different levels of psychic energy and these also are measurable.

I also think very important error in socionics that this can help to address and that is the association of function strength with information preference. However this concept of function strength is not necessary for any individual and it's likely just a correlation, this also does not adequately cover many external factors such as culture, education and any such characteristic which do not originate from information preference.

Energy flow within the information metabolism may be one of these characteristics which in Model A is explained under the purview of function strength, but this is too convenient an explanation with the variation that is observed in individuals.

I'm not sure how to explain this properly as my knowledge of Model G is limited, and my focus hasn't been on socionics but psychology in the last 2 years.

[Petter]

"Jung regarded the psychic energy as a basic life-force which would manifest itself as needed (eating, moving, thinking, sex, remembering, etc.) not concentrating through childhood in various body zones (oral, anal, genital) as Freud envisaged. The psychic energy resembled physical energy: it could be exchanged with the external world in muscular effort or ingestion of food, but otherwise remained as a reservoir to be used for thought, sexual activity, artistic creation and so on."

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http://www.eoht.info/page/Psychic+energy


Psychic energy

In psychodynamics, psychic energy or "psychological energy" refers, generally, to the energy of the mind, mental processes, or psychological phenomena; energy tends to be conceptualized as some type of flow in the psychological system, governed by the principle of conservation of energy, and or the first law of thermodynamics.

Overview
In 1838 to 1842, German physicians Ernst Brücke, Herman Helmholtz, and Emil Du Bois-Reymond, who during the years 1838-42, worked in the laboratory of the German physiologist Johannes Muller, who adherence to the principle of vitalism, a doctrine that the functions of a living organism are due to a vital principle distinct from physiochemical forces. In reaction to this, the three of them, in the words of Du Bois-Reymond, formulated a desire to validate the basic truth that: [1]

“In an organism no other forces have effect than the common physio-chemical ones.”

This force or kraft, as it is called in German, soon later became synonymous with the newly forming concept of energy.

In 1895, Austrian psychologist Sigmund Freud, Brücke’s medical school student, in his "A Project for Scientific Psychology" began theorizing about bound energy and free energy in psychological terms.

In 1898, Russian psychologist Nicolas von Grot stated: [2]

“The concept of psychic energy is as much justified in science as that of physical energy, and psychic energy has just as many quantitative measurements and different forms as has physical energy.”

Into the early 20th century, Freud’s protégé Swiss psychologist Carl Jung began discussing and using psychic energy, in his theories.

In 1976, American psychiatrist Robert Galatzer-Levy, in his article "Psychic Energy: A Historical Perspective", summarized that: [3]

“Much criticism of the concept of psychic energy is based on its apparent failure to live up to the paradigm on which it is modeled, the concept of energy conservation in physics.”

[Petter]

This is a very important concept in psycho-dynamic psychology which socionics is part of.
Information preference doesn't say anything about psychic energy, but rather our reaction to information which contains psychic energy, you can say the information produced by ourselves and other individuals contain different levels of psychic energy and these also are measurable.

If there is a psychic energy, how can information contain this energy? I think psychic energy corresponds to a general attitude towards certain information, which seems to be very similar to function strength and/or "valued" function (or mental vs. vital) in my view.

I also think very important error in socionics that this can help to address and that is the association of function strength with information preference. However this concept of function strength is not necessary for any individual and it's likely just a correlation, this also does not adequately cover many external factors such as culture, education and any such characteristic which do not originate from information preference.

What is the difference between function strength and information preference in your view?

[Tigerfadder]

If there is a psychic energy, how can information contain this energy? I think psychic energy corresponds to a general attitude towards certain information, which seems to be very similar to function strength and/or "valued" function (or mental vs. vital) in my view.

It might be as such that energy -> produce -> information which is no longer just data.
So when people make sense of the world and later communicate the result of that "making sense of" energy have been spend in the mental process. It might correlate with being "bored" or "tired" reading heavy books, mentally. Also that some find some topics interesting while others get mentally drained and "bored" when researching the same things.

[Petter]

It might be as such that energy -> produce -> information which is no longer just data.
So when people make sense of the world and later communicate the result of that "making sense of" energy have been spend in the mental process. It might correlate with being "bored" or "tired" reading heavy books, mentally.

I apologize for a delayed response.

I agree with you that processing (or producing) information takes energy, but I still don't see how data/information can contain energy.

Also that some find some topics interesting while others get mentally drained and "bored" when researching the same things.

Isn't this just the same thing as preference/functions strength?

[Tigerfadder]

I apologize for a delayed response.

I agree with you that processing (or producing) information takes energy, but I still don't see how data/information can contain energy.

Im not sure it suppose to "contain energy".

We begin with general considerations. We estimate the value of poles dichotomy "energy / information" in the modern world.

In the information society especially valuable resource advocates energy. Information becomes excessive, accumulated a lot of information "garbage." A lot of extra energy spent on it to find the desired information. In addition, the more complex technical device or the more developed the economy, the higher their dependence on energy sources. Energy deficit requires expensive equipment to develop its economy. Not far off the crisis of food and drinking water, not to mention the depletion of oil and gas reserves.

Impact of the word as a carrier of information to a person or group of people is ineffective, if not produce energy training, that is to excite or interest the person (translate to a higher energy level). Practicing psychologists, PR-specialists and political scientists have long realized this. Energy psyche begins to bring to the fore.

NB! The brain consumes about half of the energy delivered to the body with food.

Creative people are capable of generating new information, if they are not energetic or if they do not support controlling energy sponsors, in most cases, remain out of work, are in a trance. Remember the perennial question: "If you're so smart, why are you so poor?"

In any successful business share information - about 20-30%, the rest - energy, efforts to implement the application and promotion. Naked enthusiasm dries quickly, it is necessary to pump in a lot of energy to "the process has begun," and is not stalled in the future.

'll Conclude. The focus of modern socionics should stand modeling of energy and information processes as energy generates information - new order, valuable experience, proven knowledge. After all, knowledge (information arms) even the most trusted in themselves, without, worthless. And in order to begin to apply them, need energy. How to get it or save?

Building a model of an object as a chain sotsionicheskogo extroverted and introverted interleaving functions so far no one has tested experimentally. If you make such an assessment by energy costs, the unfavorable functioning sotsionicheskogo object in frequent changes of extra - and introverted states is obvious. Model with such operation would be "cool" and quickly "fails" like a car that goes all the time on a bumpy road. For this reason, I have developed another model of the psyche - the energy that is more than meets the criterion of optimal life in the material world.

Energy sotsionicheskogo object model does not negate the Model A, but complements it to a single model of energetic metabolism (EIM).

This article tell us that spending energy make us generate information. It seems that information itself contain no energy, it can be viewed as a information sting in a specific order, but creating or finding this information and fitting it and making sense of it does consume energy.

[Petter]

Im not sure it suppose to "contain energy".

I don't think so... that was mu4's suggestion.

This article tell us that spending energy make us generate information. It seems that information itself contain no energy, it can be viewed as a information sting in a specific order, but creating or finding this information and fitting it and making sense of it does consume energy.

I agree with all of this, but the question still remains: how do we distinguish between psychic energy and physical energy?

[Tigerfadder]

I agree with all of this, but the question still remains: how do we distinguish between psychic energy and physical energy?

Usually we do not need to distinguish in what kind of energy some objects state are at. Energy is just energy.

[mu4]

If there is a psychic energy, how can information contain this energy? I think psychic energy corresponds to a general attitude towards certain information, which seems to be very similar to function strength and/or "valued" function (or mental vs. vital) in my view.

What is the difference between function strength and information preference in your view?

Function strength I believe has to do with the amount of psychic energy that can be directed towards an information element. On the basis of function strength in model A, ENTj and ENTp are the same. I see preference in a different way that's governed by how information enters into the system and how information is output from the system and the sequential flow of information within the metabolism.

However my view is that Model A function strength is mutable in a way that information preference is not. The flow of information in Model A is very specific and unable to be altered for any individual, any change even minor change to this structure would create mental instability, fragmentation or collapse. Something like dissociation identity disorder or major dissociation can likely present different information preference schemes if there is enough fragmentation.

So a ENTp and a ENTj have completely different and incompatible information processing mechanisms, but their function strength are the same per model A.

However this is not a necessary truth in individuals of these types, because psychic energy may be influenced quite differently than information preference, and there is no hard rule in socionics or reality that would prevent a imbalance of psychic energy within a system, and the effects of this imbalance would not bring about immediate instability, fragmentation or collapse.

There should be a correlation between function strength and preference in the ego due to what one does naturally to cope with environmental pressures, but what if these uses of one's natural capabilities were to be punished by not just informational means but material consequences, what if the intrinsic capacity to perform cognitive tasks related to one's information preference is disturbed by physical or mental ailments. There are many situations where this development can be disturbed and interrupted without altering information preference enough to cause a collapse, but there would be a misalignment between function strength and information preference. It's probable that enough difference in alignment in these factor can likely cause a mental collapse but this is not necessary for small misalignment.

It's also likely quite useful for these difference in alignment to occur, as they provide diversity and the opportunity to develop other coping mechanisms.

I also want to note it's entirely possible that for some individuals one ego function is heavily favored and the other subdued.

Also much of this is unknown and there may be many areas where alignment can somewhat different between various parts of the mind even if some concerns are the same.

[Petter]

Function strength I believe has to do with the amount of psychic energy that can be directed towards an information element. On the basis of function strength in model A, ENTj and ENTp are the same.

I apologize for a delayed response.

This corresponds with dimensionality, right? This is also the same as 'interest' according to SSS, and me.

I see preference in a different way that's governed by how information enters into the system and how information is output from the system and the sequential flow of information within the metabolism.

However my view is that Model A function strength is mutable in a way that information preference is not. The flow of information in Model A is very specific and unable to be altered for any individual, any change even minor change to this structure would create mental instability, fragmentation or collapse. Something like dissociation identity disorder or major dissociation can likely present different information preference schemes if there is enough fragmentation.

Can you explain this part a bit further?

Can you give me an example of an impossible alteration of the flow of information?

So a ENTp and a ENTj have completely different and incompatible information processing mechanisms, but their function strength are the same per model A.

I disagree with this. I think preference and function strength is the same thing. However, ENTp and ENTj don't think Te and Ne are equally important. ENTp "values" Ne more than Te, especially in public.

Is your view that preferred functions are the same as "valued" functions?

I also want to note it's entirely possible that for some individuals one ego function is heavily favored and the other subdued.

Why do you think that?

[mu4]

I apologize for a delayed response.

This corresponds with dimensionality, right? This is also the same as 'interest' according to SSS, and me.

There could be a correlation but not necessarily a causal effect between psychic energy and dimensionality. I think intelligence(general and specific) can factor here. Psychic energy may not even be function strength it might be an aspect of the human organism that may display as function strength but different aspect vs what socionics attempts to measure.

Can you explain this part a bit further?

Can you give me an example of an impossible alteration of the flow of information?

I disagree with this. I think preference and function strength is the same thing. However, ENTp and ENTj don't think Te and Ne are equally important. ENTp "values" Ne more than Te, especially in public.

Once again there is probably a correlation but there's no need to be causation. Function strength is already seen to be mutable by various subtype theories. A contact subtype of a D (DCNH) subtype would have accentuated and thus perhaps stronger than . I'm not sure if you understand what I've said.

The flow of information if changed would change type, if ILE all of a sudden the preferred information flow went from Ne->Ti to Ne-Fi then they would have changed types, or perhaps created an alternated TIM(dissociative identity disorder is a thing). This wouldn't change function strength either. From my study of various dissociative disorders, this is entirely possible, some dissociative identity disorders can be visually blind in one personality vs another and this can be confirmed via neural imaging, the vision receptors are simply shut off due to some trauma. I assume many more changes to the brain can occur via trauma, physical or psychological. However even if preference changes to trauma, strength might still be preserved. The model is only a efficient ideal of a information metabolism, but it has really no bearing on the possible variation that exists, which can be as inefficient in many ways as long as what is necessary eventually occurs.

Is your view that preferred functions are the same as "valued" functions?

Why do you think that?

I'm not sure what you're asking, information preference and valued functions are the same in socionics.

Anyways I'm not sure how much knowledge you have of neuroscience or cognitive science so you may need to learn a lot more before approaching the theoretical aspects of this topic.

[Petter]

There could be a correlation but not necessarily a causal effect between psychic energy and dimensionality. I think intelligence(general and specific) can factor here. Psychic energy may not even be function strength it might be an aspect of the human organism that may display as function strength but different aspect vs what socionics attempts to measure.

I sort of agree with you here, but it is very difficult to comment since we don't know if there is a psychic energy in the first place, and we don't know how to distinguish between it and physical energy. And we certainly don't know if Gulenko's model is accurate.

Once again there is probably a correlation but there's no need to be causation. Function strength is already seen to be mutable by various subtype theories. A contact subtype of a D (DCNH) subtype would have accentuated and thus perhaps stronger than .

I disagree completely with this. DCNH is inaccurate. Both Ne and Te are either strengthened or weakened.

I'm not sure if you understand what I've said.

Neither am I.

The flow of information if changed would change type, if ILE all of a sudden the preferred information flow went from Ne->Ti to Ne-Fi then they would have changed types, or perhaps created an alternated TIM(dissociative identity disorder is a thing). This wouldn't change function strength either. From my study of various dissociative disorders, this is entirely possible, some dissociative identity disorders can be visually blind in one personality vs another and this can be confirmed via neural imaging, the vision receptors are simply shut off due to some trauma. I assume many more changes to the brain can occur via trauma, physical or psychological. However even if preference changes to trauma, strength might still be preserved. The model is only a efficient ideal of a information metabolism, but it has really no bearing on the possible variation that exists, which can be as inefficient in many ways as long as what is necessary eventually occurs.

OK. And I agree with you.

I'm not sure what you're asking, information preference and valued functions are the same in socionics.

No, and this is important. Preference, strength and dimensionality refer to the same thing. This is about INTEREST. "Valued" functions or "verbal" functions is about IMPORTANCE.

I'm not sure what you're asking, information preference and valued functions are the same in socionics.
Anyways I'm not sure how much knowledge you have of neuroscience or cognitive science so you may need to learn a lot more before approaching the theoretical aspects of this topic.

"I also want to note it's entirely possible that for some individuals one ego function is heavily favored and the other subdued."

What do you mean by "subdued" here? Are you saying that the dominant/leading function can be subdued???

[Jeremy8419]

There could be a correlation but not necessarily a causal effect between psychic energy and dimensionality. I think intelligence(general and specific) can factor here. Psychic energy may not even be function strength it might be an aspect of the human organism that may display as function strength but different aspect vs what socionics attempts to measure.

Once again there is probably a correlation but there's no need to be causation. Function strength is already seen to be mutable by various subtype theories. A contact subtype of a D (DCNH) subtype would have accentuated and thus perhaps stronger than . I'm not sure if you understand what I've said.

The flow of information if changed would change type, if ILE all of a sudden the preferred information flow went from Ne->Ti to Ne-Fi then they would have changed types, or perhaps created an alternated TIM(dissociative identity disorder is a thing). This wouldn't change function strength either. From my study of various dissociative disorders, this is entirely possible, some dissociative identity disorders can be visually blind in one personality vs another and this can be confirmed via neural imaging, the vision receptors are simply shut off due to some trauma. I assume many more changes to the brain can occur via trauma, physical or psychological. However even if preference changes to trauma, strength might still be preserved. The model is only a efficient ideal of a information metabolism, but it has really no bearing on the possible variation that exists, which can be as inefficient in many ways as long as what is necessary eventually occurs.

I'm not sure what you're asking, information preference and valued functions are the same in socionics.

Anyways I'm not sure how much knowledge you have of neuroscience or cognitive science so you may need to learn a lot more before approaching the theoretical aspects of this topic.

TIM is already dissociative. Each of the TIM are a dissociation between their 4D and 1D functions, with the level of dissociation present objectively being the measure of how different they are than other people. Normies are balanced on their elements. Sure, you can microscope a normie and be like hmmm it appears you have a very slight disconnect between X and Y, but otherwise you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Supervision in Socionics provides a bridging of that cognitive disconnect.