Gun control cartoon

[discojoe]

Let's use your example then: Virginia Tech - 33 deaths.

Virginia allows unlicensed open carry of a handgun that has a capacity of twenty rounds or less. Restrictions on campus? Yes: Gun Free School Zone act, CHP holders are allowed to have guns on school grounds in their personal vehicles as long as they stay in the car and the gun remains concealed.

Sounds like your argument is unfounded...

...Why would anyone bother to have guns on campus if they're not allowed to take them out of their cars?

Sure, if half the students had guns in their cars, I'm sure a few of them would have run and gotten them when el chino started his rampage, but that law is meant to discourage students from having guns in the first place by creating strong legal incentives for them to not carry one.

Another point you're missing is that there is little incentive to enter a dangerous situation, even when armed. How many people do you think would have left the danger zone, retrieved their gun, then reentered it in order to stop the shooter? The point of being able to carry a gun is so you can react at the precise moment of being inserted into a dangerous situation, not so you can go fight a battle after making a safe retreat.

[Wynch]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Peter, but I don't think guns are allowed on one's person on a school premises anywhere in the United States. Yet the numbers are still there. Additionally, that still doesn't account for the significant risk increase in the USA vs. Canada. Considering the fact that Canada has gunlaws as tight or tighter than any state in the USA, it seems only reasonable to assume that it's not the tighter gunlaws that are creating higher risk in the USA compared to Canada...

Not to mention the fact that Canada also takes less precautionary measures against shootings. There are only two places in the country where I've had to go through a metal detector and baggage check. Airports and Parliament. Still, I'm at a lower risk of getting shot.

[discojoe]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Peter, but I don't think guns are allowed on one's person on a school premises anywhere in the United States. Yet the numbers are still there. Additionally, that still doesn't account for the significant risk increase in the USA vs. Canada. Considering the fact that Canada has gunlaws as tight or tighter than any state in the USA, it seems only reasonable to assume that it's not the tighter gunlaws that are creating higher risk in the USA compared to Canada...

Not to mention the fact that Canada also takes less precautionary measures against shootings. There are only two places in the country where I've had to go through a metal detector and baggage check. Airports and Parliament. Still, I'm at a lower risk of getting shot.

Like I said in my previous post, almost all gun violence in the US occurs in inner cities, by warring gang members using illegal firearms, and by street criminals who usually don't have to worry about their intended victims carrying weapons.

[Wynch]

There must be something else that contributes too, then. Maybe a cultural thing, I'm not sure. But there's got to be something that makes the US a more violent place to live, and I'm not altogether certain that less gun control is really going to help that.

[discojoe]

There must be something else that contributes too, then. Maybe a cultural thing, I'm not sure. But there's got to be something that makes the US a more violent place to live, and I'm not altogether certain that less gun control is really going to help that.

In my opinion, it's caused by ghetto black culture, which came from redneck culture, which in turn came from England. It's no longer in England, but it lingers among some white trash Americans and most inner-city African Americans.

It's the source of social and sexual degeneracy in inner-cities.

[Logos]

In my opinion, it's caused by ghetto black culture, which came from redneck culture, which in turn came from England. It's no longer in England, but it lingers among some white trash Americans and most inner-city African Americans.

It's the source of social and sexual degeneracy in inner-cities.

Did Thomas Sowell tell you that?

[discojoe]

Did Thomas Sowell tell you that?

Yes he did, hence, "In my opinion".

[cracka]

There must be something else that contributes too, then. Maybe a cultural thing, I'm not sure. But there's got to be something that makes the US a more violent place to live, and I'm not altogether certain that less gun control is really going to help that.

I'd hardly say the US in general... is a much more violent place to live. Certain places in the US... yes. You don't hear too much about violent shootings in Idaho or Montana or North Dakota...etc.

It's a factor of LOTS of people living in poverty in one place... in different parts of our country. California has always had lots of gang activities, expensive place to live + large population + huge mix of different ethnicities = a big mix of poverty and, in general, pissed off people. People want to make something of themselves... that's just one example.
Washington DC is another place where the public is not allowed to be armed, but they have one of the higher violent crime rates in the US. Much like what happened when England put their guns away, it just makes it easier for criminals to commit a crime knowing that they'll be the only one with a gun.

Now, on the issue of inner city legality... there's a difference in making firearms legal and letting everyone run around with one on their hip... than to use a concealed permit system like other states/cities do. To get a permit you have to take a class or two... some places you actually have to be pass a shooting test, you get fingerprinted, you can't have any felonies on your record, the law enforcement of the area will know YOU carry a firearm, and you pretty much just get checked out enough to make sure you're not just someone wanting to shoot somebody. So, with all this stuff, it makes sure that sane, law-abiding people are the ones who are carrying vs. the typical teenager who hates the world...etc.

[Wynch]

cracka, if you read even closer still:

"(f)Possession of a firearm on school property if the firearm:
(A) Is possessed by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm; and
(B) Is unloaded and locked in a motor vehicle."

I would imagine that the specification of a school zone is meant to provide an exception to where you can carry a weapon. That being said, I'm obviously not a lawyer, lol.

And I'll grant you that there are more and less dangerous places in the states to live, I certainly don't think that every american walks around in fear for their life, lol. But the fact that over all it's still more dangerous than here...I'm not sure that strict gun laws is really a legitimate factor in more danger. You would have to give me some really solid evidence to convince me of that.

[cracka]

cracka, if you read even closer still:

"(f)Possession of a firearm on school property if the firearm:
(A) Is possessed by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm; and
(B) Is unloaded and locked in a motor vehicle."

I would imagine that the specification of a school zone is meant to provide an exception to where you can carry a weapon. That being said, I'm obviously not a lawyer, lol.

you have to read it correctly.

by possessing the permit... You ARE a person allowed to carry. THE big BUT here though... is that is HAS to be posted somewhere if they don't allow firearms. Most schools actually don't post this though. The only time it's prohibited is if it's posted though.

Ok, I had to look on the OFF site to find this question actually asked to tell you what I mean up there...

Thank you for the information that you provided to me about this
issue a couple months ago. However,I found this exception in Oregon gunlaw that concerns me and I'm wondering if you can clarify or give me an example of someone arrested for carrying (licensed) on school property who was exonerated.

Here's the quote:

"166.370 Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in public
building or court facility; exceptions; discharging firearm at school....

(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(a) A sheriff, police officer, other duly appointed peace officers or a corrections officer while acting within the scope of employment.

(b) A person summoned by a peace officer to assist in making an arrest or preserving the peace, while the summoned person is engaged in assisting the officer.

(c) An active or reserve member of the military forces of this state or the United States, when engaged in the performance of duty.

(d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.

(e) A person who is authorized by the officer or agency that controls the public building to possess a firearm or dangerous weapon in that public building.

(f) Possession of a firearm on school property if the firearm:

(A) Is possessed by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm; and

(B) Is unloaded and locked in a motor vehicle."

Doesn't Subsection (3...f...B) (because it is preceded by the word AND) mean that I can only have my gun at a school if I am "not otherwise prohibited" (not a felon, have a valid CHL, etc.) AND the gun is unloaded and locked in my car?

I don't understand how this means I can have a loaded gun on my person in a school and not be in violation of Oregon law. Can you please tell me that I am incorrect and how this is legal? I want to be able to legally carry to a school, but I can't get past this.

Awaiting your response.

Thank you.


If you look at subsection “d” you’ll see it appears before fB. It stands alone. License holders are exempt. Obviously this only applies to public schools. Private schools may do as they wish.

[cracka]

You would have to give me some really solid evidence to convince me of that.

I'm not here to convince you though, i was just giving a reason for the "why" that you asked. I'm not gonna argue the fact that we have more violence than Canada. It's Canada...lol.

[cracka]

...Why would anyone bother to have guns on campus if they're not allowed to take them out of their cars?

I can answer this one for you. For those times when a person is armed all the time but end up going to a place where firearms are not allowed. Such as places like a post office, federal building, or wal-mart. (it's usually posted that no firearms are allowed)
When you go to a place where firearms are not allowed and you are carrying... well, you're not going to go home and put your gun away... In these instances I just put mine under my seat.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Peter, but I don't think guns are allowed on one's person on a school premises anywhere in the United States.

As a concealed permit holder you're allowed to have them on school premises. Here's a site that I subscribe to that sends any updates to Oregon gun laws to me every month.
http://oregonfirearms.org/index.html

Here's the site with the actual gun laws of the State of Oregon:

http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html

quoted from that...

166.360 Definitions for ORS 166.360 to 166.380. As used in ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise:
(1) “Capitol building” means the Capitol, the State Office Building, the State Library Building, the Labor and Industries Building, the State Transportation Building, the Agriculture Building or the Public Service Building and includes any new buildings which may be constructed on the same grounds as an addition to the group of buildings listed in this subsection.
(2) “Court facility” means a courthouse or that portion of any other building occupied by a circuit court, the Court of Appeals, the Supreme Court or the Oregon Tax Court or occupied by personnel related to the operations of those courts, or in which activities related to the operations of those courts take place.
(3) “Loaded firearm” means:
(a) A breech-loading firearm in which there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in or attached to the firearm including but not limited to, in a chamber, magazine or clip which is attached to the firearm.
(b) A muzzle-loading firearm which is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball, shot or projectile in the barrel or cylinder.
(4) “Public building” means a hospital, a capitol building, a public or private school, as defined in ORS 339.315, a college or university, a city hall or the residence of any state official elected by the state at large, and the grounds adjacent to each such building. The term also includes that portion of any other building occupied by an agency of the state or a municipal corporation, as defined in ORS 297.405, other than a court facility.

As you can read there, it says schools... both public and private. BUT, in the next section it says that concealed weapons permit holder CAN carry in these places... you just have to look pretty hard to find it.

166.370 Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in public building or court facility; exceptions; discharging firearm at school. (1) Any person who intentionally possesses a loaded or unloaded firearm or any other instrument used as a dangerous weapon, while in or on a public building, shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.
(2)(a) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a person who intentionally possesses:
(A) A firearm in a court facility is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony. A person who intentionally possesses a firearm in a court facility shall surrender the firearm to a law enforcement officer.
(B) A weapon, other than a firearm, in a court facility may be required to surrender the weapon to a law enforcement officer or to immediately remove it from the court facility. A person who fails to comply with this subparagraph is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony.
(b) The presiding judge of a judicial district may enter an order permitting the possession of specified weapons in a court facility.
(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:
(a) A sheriff, police officer, other duly appointed peace officers or a corrections officer while acting within the scope of employment.
(b) A person summoned by a peace officer to assist in making an arrest or preserving the peace, while the summoned person is engaged in assisting the officer.
(c) An active or reserve member of the military forces of this state or the United States, when engaged in the performance of duty.
(d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun.
(e) A person who is authorized by the officer or agency that controls the public building to possess a firearm or dangerous weapon in that public building.
(f) Possession of a firearm on school property if the firearm:
(A) Is possessed by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm; and
(B) Is unloaded and locked in a motor vehicle.
(4) The exceptions listed in subsection (3)(b) to (f) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section.
(5)(a) Any person who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, discharges or attempts to discharge a firearm at a place that the person knows is a school shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.

I've never got my concealed permit here in Oregon but still try to keep up to date with the laws if I ever choose to. My permit is from AZ and I carried there because... well, to say it bluntly... there was much more to worry about than there is here in Oregon. I feel much more safe here than there. Nobody has ever reached and tried to open my door at a stop light here in Oregon...lol.

[Logos]

Discojoe or whomever may be more informed on the subject than I, the UK has a gun ban law, does it not? I am not even sure if the police are armed (or regularly armed) with guns. Statistically how high are their gun-related crimes and accidents compare with the US?

[discojoe]

Discojoe or whomever may be more informed on the subject than I, the UK has a gun ban law, does it not? I am not even sure if the police are armed (or regularly armed) with guns. Statistically how high are their gun-related crimes and accidents compare with the US?

Murders with firearms per 1,000 people:

The US: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people, ranked no. 8.

The UK: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people, ranked no. 32.

The problem is that most (almost all) US gun violence occurs in inner cities, (where you can't legally carry a gun) with illegal firearms.

[Logos]

Murders with firearms per 1,000 people:

The US: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people, ranked no. 8.

The UK: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people, ranked no. 32.

The problem is that most (almost all) US gun violence occurs in inner cities, (where you can't legally carry a gun) with illegal firearms.

So making firearms legal in inner cities would help alleviate the problem of firearms in the inner cities?

Like I said in my previous post, almost all gun violence in the US occurs in inner cities, by warring gang members using illegal firearms, and by street criminals who usually don't have to worry about their intended victims carrying weapons.

Aren't most of a gang's intended victims also carrying firearms?

[discojoe]

So making firearms legal in inner cities would help alleviate the problem of firearms in the inner cities?

Yes. Criminals are less likely to attempt a robbery if they know their intended victim could have a gun. They want to avoid making noise or getting hurt.

Also, robberies in which the victim uses a gun to defend himself are less likely to succeed or result in injury to either party.

Aren't most of a gang's intended victims also carrying firearms?

Yes, but they target victims on the street based on how likely it is that they will be able to defend themselves.

Also, the gang violence is gang related, meaning the issue of gun control isn't applicable, since practically every gun that the gangs possess are illegal anyway.