This is something I've recently thought about. I realised that I don't really understand how it works when it's blocked with Se, such a harsh function by comparison.
How does it work?
This is something I've recently thought about. I realised that I don't really understand how it works when it's blocked with Se, such a harsh function by comparison.
How does it work?
strong + wise about people
maybe see Diana's posts in that "wow, this is crazy" thread about that Austrian incest guy
Given how Fi is blocked with Se, I would say that often the feelings might be more manifested in action rather than purely in words. (I think one of the ESI's descriptions mentions this tendency)
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
This sounds more like a dynamic (ie, Fe) view of it; Fi is static (as is Se by the way). I don't think Fi has anything to do with "mobilization".
Okay now I get better what you meant. However, I wouldn't say that even Se is about "change your actions" as such, which, again, seems to me more like a Fe thing. I's more about, uh, "putting you in your place" than "changing your actions".
If I understand what you're saying, you're essentially noticing that they're Fi and not Ti.
Okay you react better to Se+Ti than to Se+Fi.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Having an Isfj sister (she's slightly more on the Se side though..) I think that the Se shapes the Fi in Gammas so the differences result from the Se/Ne difference (but you already knew that...)
Se as a secondary function means Ne as a PoLR so that might result in less ability to see people as a whole thus judging them more narrow mindedly. On the other hand, delta NF's might be more willing to forgive people because they see people on their many complexities, have compassion and strive to forgive human faults. The SF's will tend to judge more if someone is inappropriate or crosses the Fi boundaries but the NF will see it as an achievement if it manages to go beyond the typical stereotypes and judgments of people because it wishes to understand their mind.
Though I have to admit that the whole description I just gave is judgmental and stereotypical but this is what the question demands so you'll have to forgive me for that…. And I have to admit that Gamma SF's are generally very nice people. I guess I'm just biased because my sister sucks...
On the positive side, that same Se might drive those types to fight more for the Fi. Not that Delta NF's don't fight but Se as a function is known for it's strong will and endurance thus it will be easier for the Gamma SF's to fight for what they think is right.
Please can you elaborate more on this WRT the SEE's influence and manipulation techniques?
I think the idea that Fi is close-minded is closely related to the similar idea that Ti is close-minded. Essentially, these two functions are static and they're primarily concerned with an internal self-mastered worldview, which many could view as narrow-minded and unsympathetic to others. Basically, the Se creative - coupled with Ne PoLR (as Ne creatives have less of a tendency to act in the following way) - is saying "the world is x and it will not change from x because I say so".
Good point.
This one?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1qSvLJlsWh8
from here?
(gone)
Last edited by marooned; 07-30-2008 at 03:20 AM.
well there's definitely a repulsion between the interviewer and meg. but she seems overly defensive and unable to disarm him. interviewer seems like he's making innuendos, though, which could be seen as a challenge.
conflict relation seems likely here. they can't get anywhere really.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
yeah i didn't remember that gamma is democratic. and i respect that you would go to bat for anybody that you care about. ESI's don't usually care about ILE's though??!! lol then again your ex is an ILE, and you step up for him so maybe i'm wrong.
@Loki: yeah i agree with what you are saying. i focused on the meg side of it you're focusing on the interviewer side of it. they both have responsibility.
but meg is so....stilted or something. i mean she's talking about this great great movie, In the Cut, right? if it were me in the interview i'd just totally take that guy on you know? i'm just saying she can't really handle him. but he's not drawing her out very well at all, either.
like i say, CONFLICT RELATION!!! lol
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
gamma Fi is also expressed differently between the rationals and the irrationals. w/ the irrationals it is more adaptive & in the moment.. if something brings it into conflict, this can be more easily negated & deemed irrelevent / forgotten. With ESI.. once they are in the Fi confliction mode it is kind of like a mental lockdown occurs.
Gamma Fi is me hunting you down and destroying you if you've done something bad.
i didnt' watch the whole clip but for the questions he was askingthat i saw, i kinda thought he was trying to imply something negative, to try to get her to react. and she did react a little defensively....i'd have called him out. geez what are ya trying to say, dude, exactly? with a big laugh to go with it.
but he's basically trying to make her uncomfortable, push the boundaries, which seems to me to be anti-Fi.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
hm.. they don't know how to talk to everyone ie, conflictor. With ESFps with creative Fi, I think they get frustrated that I resist manipulation in that area (personal bonds, what is right to them at that moment applying to everyone). It's the only thing that really upsets me, as I am able to understand more about deficiency with Se because I know (by socionics and my own observation) that i really do not have as much force as the average person in terms of pushing for myself. With ISFjs I think i conflict more with their Se than Fi. Their Fi is their own, and they judge by it (imo). they dont really try to get you to believe something, they measure you up and reject you if you dont fit. Over time, if their morals change then they might accept you. The ISFj in my life has become less hostile to me over time. I even would say that I feel more affection for her as well. This is how my relations in real life have turned out anyway.
I dont really think in terms of gamma fi and delta fi, but yes i do think that gamma fi is demonstrated by force and sharpness and reactivity, while a delta would express it more solitariliy (dont know if that's a word but you know).
Edit: some examples might be in order. I think about SEE as smashing glasses to the floor, or making really sarcastic remarks and slamming doors, something visible. They could also be very solemn. ESI i see as being very caustic with remarks, or very sarcastic. LIE responds to moral criticism, and they criticize but without force. However, i think ExTj both are the only types that I see in a RAGE at work. hahaha. They can throw chairs around too.. but thats not exclusive of their type. They also seem to do things for those they care about. ILI.. hm. maybe caustic remarks with them too.. but i don't really know.
Hm now that I think about it, yes, Fi is expressed with either rage or with a very solemn, quiet tone in my experience. like a rage, or a deep disappointment and judgment.
also, i really agree with this: "they value and are confident in the personal influence that they have over others." so this would also be something like demonstrating fi and their se by influencing or gaining a cohort. some ISFj-Se i also see with this trait, but overall it's as i described above ime.
Last edited by Ms. Kensington; 05-22-2008 at 09:39 PM.
I did read that, I just wanted to make it clear to others.
So if I were to become a politician, and I used a strategy to get them on my side because I knew how they thought about certain policies (e.g. "these weak minded, dependent people feed off a capitalistic machine which, if I utilise to my advantage, can make them love me, and hence receive more votes and therefore get in power), what is this? SLE or SEE? Also, if it's not SLE why isn't it? Same with SEE - if it isn't that, why is it SLE?
Gamma Fi looks like this:
+
+
I am reminded of gamma's quadra role of "cutting out" things of society that are obsolete, harmful, or bad, etc.
This might not be common socionics, but, if we look at the quadras as a series of development from alpha to beta to gamma to delta, I definitely think the gamma harshness and the "switch" from valuing Te/Fi that arises after the first two quadras makes sense. With Se>Si to cut people out, there is a rigorousness to gamma's Se+Fi blocking structure makes a lot of sense.
Gammas may have a sense of "it being up to them" to cut out the bad stuff form society, in a general way. Descriptions talk about how INTps have to cut out terrible ideas, even if they are against popular opinion (against Fe, for example).
Also, I think Joy's oft-quoted Rocky clip is fitting example for gamma Fi.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Have you seen any of the Rocky movies Ezra?
I think you're spot on. Gammas are often in the role of being "reactionaries" or "conservative", which is a false interpretation of Gamma's motives. They do not block new ideas, or change, or even revolution, as such; only those they see as nonsensical or evil. And yes, it is "up to them" because it is the Betas who are promoting the ideas, the Alphas who probably thought of them in the first place, and the Deltas thinking that everything will be okay if everybody discusses the new ideas together.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
Right, it's not at all about new vs. old or change vs. stagnation. Focusing on that stuff at all just misses the point (from a Gamma perspective).
Makes sense. And those who value how things are may think that wanting to it is just wanting change for the sake of change.
You've asked me this before. No, I haven't. And he's an SEE isn't he? Can you think of any other examples of SEEs besides Achilles in Troy, who I believe relies too much on his passions etc. - he should've forgiven Hector and seen it from his point of view.
What do you think the point is?