LSE-IEE activity relations (ENFp & ESTj)

[Christy B]

I've been in that situation before, where I asked people if they still remember me, and was quite awkward before hand.

It is hard enough knowing who is my friend out of the people I talk to on a regular basis. Things change, people change, I don't expect anyone to stay the same or really continue to like me, especially if I am not there interacting with them every day, or doing anything for them.

I have a story which basically exemplifies what you said there. I'll think about how to word it properly, and say it when I get back.

Things change, but YOU are still the same, even if life has affected you. I mean essentially you are always the same. Nothing as weak as time can change that. Nothing at all can change that. Also, I think "liking" you is different than being your friend. Yes certain things can affect if someone "likes" you or not, but if they are your friend, caring about you may be different than liking you superficially. If people don't care about you, but like you for something so superficial that it could change by the next time you see them, then F-them anyway.

[UDP]

Things change, but YOU are still the same, even if life has affected you. I mean essentially you are always the same. Nothing as weak as time can change that. Nothing at all can change that. Also, I think "liking" you is different than being your friend. Yes certain things can affect if someone "likes" you or not, but if they are your friend, caring about you may be different than liking you superficially. If people don't care about you, but like you for something so superficial that it could change by the next time you see them, then F-them anyway.

Well I'm glad you feel confident in saying that at least. I don't feel like I can comment on anything there, other than expressing a sense of doubt or "if you say so", "I guess".

Things change, but YOU are still the same, even if life has affected you. I mean essentially you are always the same. Nothing as weak as time can change that. Nothing at all can change that.

I'd like that to be true, but I really don't know. For me to believe that, it takes a lot of proving I guess. I've seen a lot of people change. I guess there are core things that stay the same but... I guess I'm waiting for someone to show that what you are saying is actually really true.

[meatburger]

I'd like that to be true, but I really don't know. For me to believe that, it takes a lot of proving I guess. I've seen a lot of people change. I guess there are core things that stay the same but... I guess I'm waiting for someone to show that what you are saying is actually really true.

I actually agree 100% with what Christy B said. I can tell that my ESTj friend thinks that perhaps i dont want to see him anymore. Its more complicated than that, he has no time for me as he is a doctor and he spends a lot of time with his girlfriend. Our friendship is basically screwed because he has progressed into a different life stage than me. But i dont like him any less, i never will. The reality is that like Christy, i hold all relationships in my head for basically forever, irrespective of physically seeing someone.

For relationships to not work its not normally a case that the person has changed. If you get on with someone well at some point, im quite convinced that you can get on well with that person again. This is the nature of Fi, People are like butter. If you keep working on them they will almost always soften. So people aren't changing but their perception of your relationship is changing and their life circumstances are changing. Sometimes people decide for whatever reason, consciously or unconsciously that they dont want to try any more.

I feel like i have butchered my thought process here but oh well im posting anyway

[idolatrie]

I'd like that to be true, but I really don't know. For me to believe that, it takes a lot of proving I guess. I've seen a lot of people change. I guess there are core things that stay the same but... I guess I'm waiting for someone to show that what you are saying is actually really true.

word. It's not about questioning the past connection, but rather ensuring that it's still there (not just in my mind)! Kind of a need for reassurance.

In terms of activity partner relationships, I've already talked a little about my relationship with unefille in different threads, so I won't bore you all by going on about it again. But basically, given how long we've known each other, and what we've gone through together, it is easily the most important friendship in my life. I *trust* her implicitly. More than that, I trust her with my emotional life/state. I don't know how to explain the importance of that really, but it is hugely significant. It's not quite like the feeling I get from INFjs, that they just *wouldn't* flake out on me emotionally because it is not something they do, but that I actually believe she would choose not to do that. I trust her to help me figure out my emotions and what I should do. So in case I haven't used the word enough, I guess trust is what is so important, and that she has strenghts in areas that I need help. And that I understand that help - it is something I can easily assimilate into my worldview.

I'll ditto the driving each other to exhaustion. We just start talking and don't stop. Our record would have to be, what, 13 hours straight when on a plane (seats were too uncomfortable to sleep in), and our tendency to just stay up talking even though we know we should be going to bed already. We feed each other's fears though, I think, like when things go wrong we'll unconsciously stoke each other's panic until it spirals up and up. The upside of that kind of drive is that we do push each other to get involved and achieve things we probably wouldn't do independently.

In terms of other ENFps I know, there's just such a wonderful ease of connection there. Interaction never feels forced, or like I have to make this great effort where I'm struggling to judge what is going on. Like, I was walking in the city when I bumped into an ENFp I know reasonably well (we're involved in the same extracurricular activity). We were walking the same way so for a few blocks we just chatted about his classes, my classes, what we were going to, and then split ways. And it was just so *easy* being around him, there were no conversational missteps and no need to overthink our interaction, which lifted my mood.

So I guess for me the activity relationship is quite stimulating and just really really comfortable.

[Christy B]

My bestest friend is LSE-Si (Hmm, I think she's already introduced her self here) and I don't know if I can possibly describe our relationship in words, or in anything less than an epic essay!

Essentially, we've been together through the worst, most emotionally destructive and unhealthy periods of our lives and we've both sort of grown into healthy and confident people together. The trajectory of our friendship covers everything significant we've done over the last 7 or 8 years. I don't know if I would have survived the years between 15 and 19 without her. And we've never ever 'fought'. Sure, we sometimes disagree about things, but we just shut up, cool off, and acknowledge the situation. I think being in the same quadra prevents us from misinterpreting each other.

The really critical thing is that as an extravert-activity relationship, we tend to drive each other to exhaustion. We both talk really fast (I also bounce) and we will talk for hours and hours and never stop until we're physically fatigued. We DO A LOT together. More subconsciously than anything, we push each other to do more, to expand our energies. We get a lot done - even if that's just by talking - together. We don't just ever 'enjoy' each other company. We enjoy it en route to some other purpose we're pursuing, even if the purpose is 'getting to the bottom of LSE's feelings for SEI'. So, when we lived together, we really had to have separate rooms that we could just retreat to and recharge.

Oh! You bounce! How cute : )

Actually I am sometimes driven to exhaustion by my activity partner evne though we are introverted because there are so many details to what interests the ISTP, and there are so many details to what interests me, and it can be a lot to try and remember.

I actually just got off the phone with an ISTP-Te. After about thirty minuts of intense conversation we start to wear each other out. It is almost like we start to step on each other's toes. If I stop talking to him before that time I feel like it was a great conversation, and I have a lot to think about later. If we start to bug each other it is sort of frustrating.

[snegledmaca]

Hmm, could you people tell me if this is a description of an activity relation between an IEE and a LSE? I'm pretty confident one of the people involved is IEE.

People often pair us together. Like, they know him, and they meet me, and the go, "figures he would have such a friend" and vice versa with people I know. We are both universally considered as weird, unorthodox, strange and so on. Quite alike. And to be honest, it completely feels this way. It's like, I can read his mind and finish his sentences and vice versa. We think alike. But at the same time slightly different. And because of this we can get into lengthy discussions on things. These tend to follow a certain pattern. We start off disagreeing. Come from opposing sides, views, ways of doing things. And then through discussion we find points of similarity and at the end realize that we are talking about the same things just from different perspectives. And through our realization we enrich our understanding and conception of whatever we were talking about. And then we just continue off in unknown directions, randomly jumping from topic to topic depending on our train of through at the time, having various realizations, insights, epiphanies and so on. And this can last for hours. Normally the only thing that stops us is that we get physically exhausted. Like literally we are barely staying awake from spending the last 12 hours engaged in a non stop discussion. Eventually we simply have to separate as it gets too much and you have to rest. But we haven't really had one of these in a while. There are no favorable conditions. Before he lived like 200 meters from me. We could stay at his place all night and work on stuff, play games and so on with no problems as it would be empty on a regular basis. Now, we moved to another city and there is no place to do that anymore. The conditions are missing.

[meatburger]

I wonder if ESTjs and ISTps are afraid of trusting in someone completely. Is that even possible? if so, how long does it take? years?

I fucked up with my friend (sli) today. I said i would be late comming to his house but i left it just that little too late and he smsed and cancelled it. Not answering his phone. He invited people over but not many came. One of his particular problems is he doesn't realise who are his real friends, and gets upset when he invites people who dont like him and they dont come. Anyway, theres repecussions of not attending for sure. That extra bit of anger and mistrust has just built inside him.

Hmm, could you people tell me if this is a description of an activity relation between an IEE and a LSE? I'm pretty confident one of the people involved is IEE.

Yeah i dont see why not. It does play out a great deal like an activity relation. I dont see any particular reason why it couldn't be another activity relation tho? I dont think i or any LSE's ive known are considered universally weird though. I can resonate with "we start off disagreeing" a lot of the time, that often seems to happen with mirrors a lot with me too. Although as activity i must admit we tend to always agree at the end. When i was younger the relations were perhaps extreme like that (hours) but now im a bit older unfortunately its not like that.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I fucked up with my friend (sli) today. I said i would be late comming to his house but i left it just that little too late and he smsed and cancelled it. Not answering his phone. He invited people over but not many came. One of his particular problems is he doesn't realise who are his real friends, and gets upset when he invites people who dont like him and they dont come. Anyway, theres repecussions of not attending for sure. That extra bit of anger and mistrust has just built inside him.

If he's got annoyed it must be a regular occurance. It's not like an ISTp to be that obssesed with time, unless your really taking the biscuit

Yeah i dont see why not. It does play out a great deal like an activity relation. I dont see any particular reason why it couldn't be another activity relation tho? I dont think i or any LSE's ive known are considered universally weird though. I can resonate with "we start off disagreeing" a lot of the time, that often seems to happen with mirrors a lot with me too. Although as activity i must admit we tend to always agree at the end. When i was younger the relations were perhaps extreme like that (hours) but now im a bit older unfortunately its not like that.

Interesting. I can't recall every disagreeing with an activity partner, but I have disagreed with a mirror on occasion. Are you sure your typing these guys correctly?

[meatburger]

If he's got annoyed it must be a regular occurance. It's not like an ISTp to be that obssesed with time, unless your really taking the biscuit

Well yeah, this is the famed red head again. I am honestly not trying to paint an odd picture of ISTp's when i talk about him. He basically said bbq at his house at 2:00pm. LSE friend invited me to watch his soccer game, but it started at 3:15 finished at 5:00. I said to LSE friend that if i did that i was certian ISTp friend would be pissed. I smsed SLI and told him i was thinking of watching soccer, not sure if i would get a firery or happy response. I got a decent one (quite relaxed) he even said he and his friend might come. Soccer game turned out to be a ripper and near the end he smsed and said "im going to other friends house maybe another time". I smsed back and LSE phoned but predictably no response. Perhaps im totally over-reating and hes not that pissed. I could just detect a hint in his sms when he said "No one came". Its not the time itself, its the sitting with his mate smoking pot, drinking beers and deliberating for a few hours.*sigh*

Interesting. I can't recall every disagreeing with an activity partner, but I have disagreed with a mirror on occasion. Are you sure your typing these guys correctly?

>99% certianty . I have known SLI since i was 5 and LSE since about 7. My core friend group just fit socionics like a glove, im very confident about them all. One problem with me is i dont flesh out my ideas / what i mean. I dont actually argue a lot at all with him but there is occasions. Tonight i said im not sure that teachers in our state should get the same wages as teachers in another state because cost of living in the other state is higher. He disagreed as he said that there is an exodus of people from our state because of the lower wages. A small discussion ensued but in the end we both just agreed we dont really know much about it and we were both right to some degree. I dont actually think i have EVER had a heated argument with him, and that is saying something. I agree disagreeing with mirror seems much more common than activity. Its normally on an area of politics or something like that.

Its 4:00am here now and he just left. His gf is away and he was playing assassins creed on my pc lol. He doesn't get to do that too often. So why do i talk about my friends so often? Perhaps its a way of me trying to seem awesome to all you folks? Hiding insecurities or something? It probablly peeves some people off. Im actually finding my friend group is unravelling a lot. Its also all i can really offer in socionics because theoretically i have nothing but i do have practical experience.

[idolatrie]

I agree disagreeing with mirror seems much more common than activity. Its normally on an area of politics or something like that.

I find I'm more likely to disagree with my activity partner, at least initially, then find out we're really arguing about the same thing (as expressed in the other post in this thread before). Most of my mirrors I know in a group work sort of environment, and I barely ever disagreed. We seemed to pretty much unquestinoingly accept what the other was saying because it just, you know, made sense. Like the logic didnt have to be explained. I do recall that we had different opinions on politics/economics, but I still understood his position, even if I can't agree with it.

Whereas with my activity partner, sometimes I need to break down the logic, parse it into a form I can grasp, and at that point usually discover we agree, just were looking at different aspects/perspectives. I guess I've found my political position to be more similar to that of my activity partner, but I definitely think that's because of the individuals I'm thinking of, and has nothing to do with type at all.

...So why do i talk about my friends so often? Perhaps its a way of me trying to seem awesome to all you folks? Hiding insecurities or something? It probablly peeves some people off. Im actually finding my friend group is unravelling a lot. Its also all i can really offer in socionics because theoretically i have nothing but i do have practical experience.

haha, not adding anything of use except wanted to say I feel that that too! in terms of contributing to this forum. and obviously in a much more limtied way.

[meatburger]

I find I'm more likely to disagree with my activity partner, at least initially, then find out we're really arguing about the same thing (as expressed in the other post in this thread before).

WELL GUESS WHAT IDOLATRIE, I DISAGREE WITH YOU AND THAT MAKES YOU RIGHT! SO THERE! (uhh hang on... )

I think thats one problem with talking about intertype relations from the point of view of experience. Normal people only have a couple of close real life intertype relations of each type to learn from. This discounts all the individual differences of people. I also think that intertype relations play out differently between the types. So your mirror experience is different to mine because you have a different mirror to me.

From my real life subjective experience, my only INFj friend LOVES to argue with me. For example i sent him a movie a while back of street fighter and i said "wow check this out that was epic" and he said "it was ok but not epic". Im like for fucks sake of course it was epic he had 1% health the crowd was going wild then he came back". These type of arguments are annoying as all hell and we get into them far too often lol. If i had sent it to any other friend, they wouldn't have baited me by opposing what i said. What im saying though is that if my experience with him for any reason is not typical of a normal mirror relationship then my whole argument goes out the window.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Well yeah, this is the famed red head again. I am honestly not trying to paint an odd picture of ISTp's when i talk about him. He basically said bbq at his house at 2:00pm. LSE friend invited me to watch his soccer game, but it started at 3:15 finished at 5:00. I said to LSE friend that if i did that i was certian ISTp friend would be pissed. I smsed SLI and told him i was thinking of watching soccer, not sure if i would get a firery or happy response. I got a decent one (quite relaxed) he even said he and his friend might come. Soccer game turned out to be a ripper and near the end he smsed and said "im going to other friends house maybe another time". I smsed back and LSE phoned but predictably no response. Perhaps im totally over-reating and hes not that pissed. I could just detect a hint in his sms when he said "No one came". Its not the time itself, its the sitting with his mate smoking pot, drinking beers and deliberating for a few hours.*sigh*

Wow. Don't feel it's my place to say much, but it's an interesting story. I guess one way to look at it is he must feel tight with the friendship if he's not perhaps being polite as he maybe should..or maybe he doesn't realise it? Or these two things could be wrong Only you can decide, with star wars toys.

Its 4:00am here now and he just left. His gf is away and he was playing assassins creed on my pc lol. He doesn't get to do that too often. So why do i talk about my friends so often? Perhaps its a way of me trying to seem awesome to all you folks? Hiding insecurities or something? It probablly peeves some people off. Im actually finding my friend group is unravelling a lot. Its also all i can really offer in socionics because theoretically i have nothing but i do have practical experience.

I don't know how much you know about socionics of course, but in regards to practical experience, don't knock it dude It's pretty important in socionics imo.

In regards to group unravelling, stuff like that happens, folk getting new jobs, new relationships and stuff. You gotta make sure you're ok.

Sometimes arranging a sport, like even a weekly soccer game..is enough to make sure people keep in contact despite other things going on in lives - It's something to do, keep in contact and still a common interest I think. But hey, maybe I'm talking nonesense about this? I don't think so, but who can say lol

[redbaron]

Things change, but YOU are still the same, even if life has affected you. I mean essentially you are always the same. Nothing as weak as time can change that. Nothing at all can change that. Also, I think "liking" you is different than being your friend. Yes certain things can affect if someone "likes" you or not, but if they are your friend, caring about you may be different than liking you superficially. If people don't care about you, but like you for something so superficial that it could change by the next time you see them, then F-them anyway.

I completely agree with this. I could run into a friend I haven't seen in 20 years and be like "hey, how are you?" and then turn and introduce him to my husband as "my friend from...." and I wouldn't think there would be anything weird about that. (although now I'm realizing that others might not agree and could think that was strange)

[jewels]

As far as the activity relation exhaustion thing...I find w/ each ESTj it's different.

One ESTj I know will talk endlessly, but it doesn't really bother me. Other people think he talks way too much, but to me it's usually amusing stuff, and I tend to agree w/ him. And he does listen intently when I do slip in a few words now and then . I never really felt super exhausted after hanging out w/ him, it simply felt like playtime was over and it was time to go home, lol. And we always had a lot of fun even doing mundane things like going to the mall or grabbing a drink. He would get so excited about stuff so it made it fun.

Another ESTj I knew was rather quiet, and I don't remember feeling exhausted at all w/ him. One thing I really like about ESTjs is their structure and how they seem to keep the details organized that I let fly out of my head. He had this thing where it always seemed liek he knew exactly where he was going, and never hesitated to make decisions, which rocked (I just hung out w/ an identical the other day, and we wandered the city for about two hours trying to pick a restaurant until we both almost died of hunger! But then found an amazing place luckily).

But actually, I just made a new ESTj friend and we were hanging out today, and I don't know why, but after about 7 hours I was seriously like "omg I'm going to fall asleep right here." I didn't say it, but I think he noticed. Maybe it was the wine, or all the walking. We definitely had fun. But it wasn't quite as easy as the other ESTjs, not sure why. Part of it I think is that he doesnt seem to like wasting time as much as I do. I felt like I was almost wasting his time with all of my wandering around the city, stopping to watch street performers for like 15 minutes, etc. lol. But that's what I do...

So I'm not sure if today was an example of being exhausted by activity, but I came home and just like vegged and then felt better.

[meatburger]

But actually, I just made a new ESTj friend and we were hanging out today, and I don't know why, but after about 7 hours I was seriously like "omg I'm going to fall asleep right here." I didn't say it, but I think he noticed. Maybe it was the wine, or all the walking. We definitely had fun. But it wasn't quite as easy as the other ESTjs, not sure why. Part of it I think is that he doesnt seem to like wasting time as much as I do. I felt like I was almost wasting his time with all of my wandering around the city, stopping to watch street performers for like 15 minutes, etc. lol. But that's what I do...

So I'm not sure if today was an example of being exhausted by activity, but I came home and just like vegged and then felt better.

I can understand this story. Sometimes you just have bad days aswell. ESTj's can have this stern type of look about them which gets you wondering. I tend to just totally ignore it lol. ESTj's dont tend to like wasting time, they tend to run tight schedules, but i suspect ENFp's are actually handy in teaching them how to do it lol. Yeah but that would be the rational/irrational difference. I mean i felt odd last night with my friend, exactly the same like i was wasting his time. He actually looked bored and i said he could go if he wanted no worries. Wasting time though, he played assassins creed for like 6 hours straight. Haha i think my evil rubbed off on him.