Your opinion.
Your opinion.
Because it is "evolutionarily advantageous" in a social sense.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I think it often has something to do with a lack of empathy. But that's just one aspect, there are different reasons why someone is selfish.
„Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
– Arthur Schopenhauer
Define selfishness.
IME, selfishness (or rather, the complaint of such) is a label some people slap onto other people who have the guts to go for what they want, when they themselves do not.
If selfishness is defined as being true to ourselves and going after what we want, then selfishness is a duty everyone owes to themselves. It is everybody's right to pursue their own personal desires, and it is silly to accuse other people of being inherently selfish due to it, when we too are acting out of selfishness in the pursuit of our own desires.
Jadedness or poor upbringing.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
as Ashton said before: selfishness ≠ self-interest
Of course it's right to improve your own personal situation, but in some situation, this can be easily called selfishness. For example when you don't consider any other people but negatively affect them with your actions.
„Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
– Arthur Schopenhauer
There are lots of reasons.
There is a time early on in everyone's life when the world rotates around them (or at least it feels like it does) and they get everything they want.
At some point as they grow, hopefully they learn that the world does not actually rotate around them, and hopefully they stop getting everything they want, and learn that it's OK to not get everything you want and it's fair for other people to get what they want some of the time too, even if it conflicts with what you want.
Not everyone is taught that.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
I suppose the factors are social conditioning and neurology/psychology.
Not all societies are the same; at the collective level the degree of expected selfishness might be far greater than that of another. Even in the home, parents, especially in a nation with such varying cultures like the U.S., may carry a wide range of societal moral values. Generally, we are conditioned to "get along", respect and sometimes even to act with others' best interests in mind. The lack of such conditioning in individuals would definitely have them as selfish.
Psychology is also important. Every person is a mix of chemicals and behavioral & mental arrangements; an extreme imbalance of chemicals and dysfunctional behavioral & mental arrangements are what is classified as pathological or psychological disorders. But its only when such conditions are extreme that they are clinically diagnosed, truth is, all people lean towards some area(s) of a disorder(s), such as psychopathy, narcissism and sociopathy.
That's the same thing, worse even.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
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Some scenarios:
Someone is extremely isolated for a long period of time from other people, i.e. someone who is a loner or perhaps lives in a very harsh rural area. Many people aren't around them so instead it is natural and instinctive to immediately look after themselves without thinking of other people.
Someone has dealt with a social situation that is highly competitive, something similar to a "crabs in a bucket" situation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality. In this situation they learn to ignore the efforts of others and focus solely on their own interest, because any sense of cooperation has broken down.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
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Wow, not all people need to be taught or forced to invest in people to think or care about them when it's in their power to do so. This is not directly related to being selfish.
This predisposes that you think there is something wrong with them. If they don't agree that there is and you judge them this way indirectly, that makes you the selfish one.Use the sanctuary model: don't ask why someone is a certain way, ask, what happened to them?
And happiness is having a horse.
My LSE grandma speaks in first person when she's talking to me. She says stuff like "grandma don't know ______" or "well grandma went over there and _____" etc. This is actually more of a third-person view, because she takes the subject into consideration and feels its appropriate to address me and the rest of my cousins this way, that she feels we're still kids to her. There's some sort of relationship created by it that she doesn't have with her children, that she's used to speaking to us this way.
Getting everything one wants, i.e. believing the world revolves around them, doesn't mean they don't think other people shouldn't get what they want. Deciding one's desires take precedence over another's can be selfish, but it depends on the motive. Would you like to define some selfish motives?
I might agree with Gilly that selfishness sometimes speaks to being less socialized. If one feels disconnected from others, wary of others, distrustful of others, etc. then they will be more likely to think only of themselves. This isn't because they don't inwardly wish others well, but that they know no one else is going to help them and so they feel left to fend for themselves and therefore don't have the time or energy to pay attention to others (sometimes even feeling overly burdened around others). I think isolation creates a more selfish character because one becomes more desperate as getting by on their own is far more difficult than getting by is when one has social support. Selfishness could also be a reaction to rejection or to feeling no one understands (not being able to relate or connect with others easily due either to lack of social skills or to lower "social intelligence").
I might think that some highly emotional people could end up being selfish because they're overwhelmed by their own feelings so much that they don't have any room to notice other people's feelings. They might turn every conversation into being about them and their feelings and respond to others irrationally. Telling them that they're being one-sided and never listen might launch them into more emotional drama as they worry about what this says about them and how someone saying this to them makes them feel and so on, making this all about them as well. Maybe some of these people have over-active amygdalas or something, or maybe they became addicted to their own emotional responses or have abused too many substances or have some psychological disorder.
I'd agree that lack of empathy or a deficit of emotion could also lead to selfishness. One feels little to nothing for others and therefore doesn't feel too bad when they use others for their own purposes (at the expense of others). However, there would be a difference between being this way and simply being an opportunist who tries to be fair in one's dealings, but who still doesn't really feel as much or empathize as much perhaps as the average person. Perhaps having a sense of ethics makes the difference, and that could in some cases just amount a difference in individual development.
And then there are all the rest of the reasons and factors and what not. Like narcissism. And maybe adult narcissism is more along the lines of Slacker's example. Things like excessive praise, spoiling, high expectations, idealization, lack of boundaries (as in not discouraging bad behavior or not making it clear certain behavior isn't okay), and what not are attributed as causes of narcissism. So the narcissist was molded into a selfish being and can't grow beyond it because in being raised to believe they're a special idealized person (regardless of their actual accomplishments and actions in life), they weren't encouraged to examine their true thoughts and feelings (or abilities), and so there is a deficit of self-understanding. In their case, being selfish would amusingly enough, arise out of constantly trying to feed a self that isn't even real. They are selfish because they don't know themselves.
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
Originally Posted by Abbie
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
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Misunderstanding? Most selfish people do that.
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
Originally Posted by Abbie
Less socialized? No...it can occur from over-socialization as well, just as easily if not more so, and definitely more often.
[quote]I might think that some highly emotional people could end up being selfish because they're overwhelmed by their own feelings so much that they don't have any room to notice other people's feelings. They might turn every conversation into being about them and their feelings and respond to others irrationally. Telling them that they're being one-sided and never listen might launch them into more emotional drama as they worry about what this says about them and how someone saying this to them makes them feel and so on, making this all about them as well.Or under-active...Maybe some of these people have over-active amygdalas or something,
Rather common in varying degrees IMOor maybe they became addicted to their own emotional responses
Ehhh...that's not from the substances directly, as in an impact the chemicals have on your brain, but from the social mentality surrounding them and theor have abused too many substances
Phony term. Everyone has "psychological disorders;" they are merely labeled as such when they interfere with productivity or endanger someone else's life or emotional well-being. It's just as important, though, IMO, to understand the functional variants alongside the dysfunctional ones, in order to understand the depth of the complex and discern generalities and trends from particulars and peculiarities.or have some psychological disorder.
I'd say it just reveals the inherent selfishness that is tamed by empathy; one could say the reverse of some people, as well. Selfishness certainly came first, but it's hard to discern which is, on "average, truly dominant in our real-world functioning. Which is itself truly meaningless; what is more relevant is in what degree each attitude expresses itself in crucial circumstances. That could be a chicken-egg argument though.I'd agree that lack of empathy or a deficit of emotion could also lead to selfishness.
Having a sense of ethics is nice, but it's poor when used as any kind of actual measuring stick; it ensures that anyone, no matter how ill-intending, stupid, crazy, or downright evil, can get a doggy treat, and have a shot at a slice of the real pie.One feels little to nothing for others and therefore doesn't feel too bad when they use others for their own purposes (at the expense of others). However, there would be a difference between being this way and simply being an opportunist who tries to be fair in one's dealings, but who still doesn't really feel as much or empathize as much perhaps as the average person. Perhaps having a sense of ethics makes the difference, and that could in some cases just amount a difference in individual development.
Sounds like selfishness arises out of selfishness...I think inflated self-image would arise more by consequence.And then there are all the rest of the reasons and factors and what not. Like narcissism. And maybe adult narcissism is more along the lines of Slacker's example. Things like excessive praise, spoiling, high expectations, idealization, lack of boundaries (as in not discouraging bad behavior or not making it clear certain behavior isn't okay), and what not are attributed as causes of narcissism. So the narcissist was molded into a selfish being and can't grow beyond it because in being raised to believe they're a special idealized person (regardless of their actual accomplishments and actions in life), they weren't encouraged to examine their true thoughts and feelings (or abilities), and so there is a deficit of self-understanding. In their case, being selfish would amusingly enough, arise out of constantly trying to feed a self that isn't even real. They are selfish because they don't know themselves.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
That's a very interesting idea, one at first would think the process of socialization would condition people towards selflessness, but it can also have the reverse effect.
I find inn most cases you're dealing with layered factions. A typical person is going to first socialize with the cliche of peers/friends outside themselves, then above that more generally with a sense of local community, then above that politically or nationally, and finally above that in a broader philosophical sense. So you have subfactions within subfactions within factions. The more someone say socializes with their friends, this may cause them to desocialize away from previously held loyalties in other areas. A great example of this is how children are conditioned away from socialization with their parents and towards socialization with their peers in adolesence.
So basically the effects of socialization are hard to gauge and complex. If someone socializes towards the mainstream American political current for example they may find themselves being more anti-social with respect to other societies and factions internationally. So to a fellow mainstream American you appear selfless in your service to your society, but to someone else in the world you appear self-interested and greedy.
Ultimately I agree though, every individual psychologically is consistently dealing with the two aspects, but also every faction composed of individuals themselves are sociologically dealing with this as well.
Last edited by male; 11-02-2011 at 12:55 AM.
Inherent
Forced to
To fend for themselves
Raised to be
Self oriented and selfish are two different things. To take care of oneself out of necessity is not a selfish act.
-
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
People see how most people are selfish, rude and arrogant - and not concerned at all with the welfare of others, and instead of using all that to be a nicer/giving person themselves, they say 'that's just the way things are' and they act the same way. Rude and obnoxious, laughing brutally at everybody's weaknesses, etc.
It's like it spirals out of control.
I remember a Buffy episode where Andrew was feeling sorry for Johnathon and then Warren goes "That's a weakness" and it kind of made me laugh. I think that is the typical American mentality you know. Empathy, feeling sorry for somebody is a weak thing and should be perished in the individual self, instead of festered. And so since most people think that way, that's why we have a world that feels dark and scary and brutal with no love in it. People sort of narcissistically and intellectually yap at each other instead of talking to people with their hearts. It's like the world has lost its heart.
IEE Ne Creative Type
Some and role lovin too. () I too...
!!!!!!
My thoughts: everything is relative. What's the difference between the vital functions and the mental functions? The vital functions emphasize the relative, the mental functions emphasize cultural normatives. Selfishness is relative, and this tells us that selfish people are merely more selfish than the norm. We discriminate against them because they engage in selfish acts in contexts that cause us anxiety. Thus we implement law as a means of controlling our anxiety. It is known that sociopaths and psychopaths are both highly impulsive. I have met a number of such people and I can affirm that they are highly impulsive. They create rationalization mechanisms by which to justify their acting on impulse, which in turn leads them into greater and greater rejection of social norms and eventually towards criminality. Impulse is a measurement and all measurements are relative... therefore, the selfish person must be more impulsive than is the norm.
Is there a link between selfishness and the Id block? Are the Id block functions more impulsive than Ego block functions?
Everybody is the same.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
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Heeeeheeeeheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
-
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor