my strong functions

[krieger]

even casually considering a typing other than INFj would conclusively settle incompetence.

[Trevor]

3w4.

[Lobo]

yeah, i can't imagine how more frustrated i'd probably be with the sterotypes if i was a dude.

and i'm starting to think we come from more similar places ideologically or whatever than i previously may have suspected.

It's not so much about being frustrated, but seeing it as bs to not take it seriously. I also don't feel the need to point out things that don't apply to me when people are discussing things about EIIs. Perhaps it's not a good attitude to have, hehe.

yessss, i think this hits on something real fo sho. it's so hard to control this. how do you accept the uncertainty?

example: i find myself wanting to ask why you specified Ne sub for me instead of just saying EII. do you think this subtype thing is the reason for the differences between me and some other EIIs on the forum? does it matter? maybe not.

Being naturally inclined to valuing different possibilities and potential is something that is hard to just shut off or control, especially if it's an asset to have in many life situations. In my case I've realized that there are different factors that have lead to that mental state of Ne confusion. One of them is not wanting to come off as wrong (which is a proud pov), and then having people think that you don't know what you're talking about based on only on what you said, rather than them realizing your potential. It's basically not trusting in the other person's thought process and evaluation of you. Another factor is trying to cover all bases, thinking that the truth is among one of those choices you've come up with.

Either way, it stems from wanting to control uncertain things. You can't make someone act the way you want, for one. Accepting that you might never know the truth about something, no matter how many possibilities you come up with, is also an important step towards reducing the mental stress. One thing is to read this, and the other is to actually understand that sentence, which recently I finally got. Once you accept the fact that there are things that you really are powerless against, you don't get stressed out of using Ne focus to try and find solutions. Ne is a problem-solving function, once you eliminate the "problems" you then use it less, and some problems are not solved using Ne. That's more or less my take on the subject.

[ashlesha]

I have known (but not well) some Deltas IRL who seemed to be openly grappling with this good person/bad person issue. I sort of think that for Delta, integrating the shadow self is particularly difficult, and so in the people I'm thinking of, one especially, there was a lot of angst and edginess and flagrant misbehavior--stuff that might get stereotyped as Beta. Yet it looked different than Beta somehow, more deliberate and premeditated, and as if the aim were toward redemption, maybe.

this is kind of difficult for me to wrap my head around, honestly...i mean, in terms of figuring out if/how it applies to me.

flagrant misbehavior, that was me when i was younger. and there was a definite deliberateness to it, like i felt i had to prove myself or something, and i've attributed this to my relationship with my mom who was an IEI 4 who regularly mocked me for not being strong, for not knowing what real pain was like, etc, and i wanted her acceptance, to be good enough for her. so looking at it in the way you've presented here would mean not only seeing my reaction as a natural sort of reaction to what my mom was like and instead a delta reaction to it and what that would mean. very interesting food for thought, thank you.

integrating the shadow...heavy, heh.

This good/bad thing is something I've had to deal with also, though. For me, it's somewhat the opposite of what you're describing, that my natural inclinations seem at various times to have led to me being labeled bad. And since I was not feeling particularly bad, just trying to be a person like any other, I was hurt by being viewed that way. And I've also tried to be good and found it stifling. Living out either side of this dichotomy probably feels unfair.

I suspect this issue might be more obvious to women sometimes, what with that lovely virgin/whore dichotomy we get trapped in.

I think we're both playful and attention-seeking; you're just more open about the latter than I am. Were there other similarities that you noticed?

both of those things, yeah. but what stands out the most to me is how neither of us has really settled into EII comfortably because we either have more tendencies to...acting out? or are more aware of them, or something. i was going to say "more comfortable with them" but maybe not. maybe that's the problem. (re: what golden said.)

i'm curious about your thoughts on this.

[ashlesha]

even casually considering a typing other than INFj would conclusively settle incompetence.

even if this was meant to be insulting it made me smile, haha

3w4.

joke?

It's not so much about being frustrated, but seeing it as bs to not take it seriously. I also don't feel the need to point out things that don't apply to me when people are discussing things about EIIs. Perhaps it's not a good attitude to have, hehe.

i have a hard time understanding this. how can you not take it seriously when other people do? (not a rhetorical question.) i mean on my own part i'm sort of a validation whore so that motivates some of my behavior, lol. but i also feel justified in trying to correct misperceptions for its own sake.

Being naturally inclined to valuing different possibilities and potential is something that is hard to just shut off or control, especially if it's an asset to have in many life situations. In my case I've realized that there are different factors that have lead to that mental state of Ne confusion. One of them is not wanting to come off as wrong (which is a proud pov), and then having people think that you don't know what you're talking about based on only on what you said, rather than them realizing your potential. It's basically not trusting in the other person's thought process and evaluation of you. Another factor is trying to cover all bases, thinking that the truth is among one of those choices you've come up with.

100%. seriously

Either way, it stems from wanting to control uncertain things. You can't make someone act the way you want, for one. Accepting that you might never know the truth about something, no matter how many possibilities you come up with, is also an important step towards reducing the mental stress. One thing is to read this, and the other is to actually understand that sentence, which recently I finally got. Once you accept the fact that there are things that you really are powerless against, you don't get stressed out of using Ne focus to try and find solutions. Ne is a problem-solving function, once you eliminate the "problems" you then use it less, and some problems are not solved using Ne. That's more or less my take on the subject.

i think this is really good advice.

i wish i had more to say but since i just agree with and appreciate all of it all i really have is thank you.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

this is kind of difficult for me to wrap my head around, honestly...i mean, in terms of figuring out if/how it applies to me.

flagrant misbehavior, that was me when i was younger. and there was a definite deliberateness to it, like i felt i had to prove myself or something, and i've attributed this to my relationship with my mom who was an IEI 4 who regularly mocked me for not being strong, for not knowing what real pain was like, etc, and i wanted her acceptance, to be good enough for her. so looking at it in the way you've presented here would mean not only seeing my reaction as a natural sort of reaction to what my mom was like and instead a delta reaction to it and what that would mean. very interesting food for thought, thank you.

integrating the shadow...heavy, heh.







both of those things, yeah. but what stands out the most to me is how neither of us has really settled into EII comfortably because we either have more tendencies to...acting out? or are more aware of them, or something. i was going to say "more comfortable with them" but maybe not. maybe that's the problem. (re: what golden said.)

i'm curious about your thoughts on this.

Hm. I wouldn't call it a "tendency to act out". Any type can do that in its own way. It's more about acting out in a way that doesn't seem to fit the type.

Re: being comfortable with my behavior, I'm in the process of accepting the underlying motivation while finding acceptable ways to express it.

[ashlesha]

Hm. I wouldn't call it a "tendency to act out". Any type can do that in its own way. It's more about acting out in a way that doesn't seem to fit the type.

Re: being comfortable with my behavior, I'm in the process of accepting the underlying motivation while finding acceptable ways to express it.

this is extremely vague and i'm thinking we're probably talking past eachother because i couldn't find the right words (hence the question mark). so who knows what either of us is talking about. oh well. i think we might have some common ground around which we could try to figure things out but if you're more interested in teaching me basics then w/e. thanks anyway.

[UDP]

I can see an argument for both Fi and Ne, almost equally, but you have a calm salinity to your posts that seems more common in Fi base>Ne

anywho, that's my impression so far

Salinity as in salt cube-ness?


Or did you maybe mean "serenity" ?

[UDP]

well i'm thinking and its hard to generalize without being vague. like a lot of the time i feel like "too much" in the delta subforum - i get too offended and i often find myself wanting to challenge the way things are there or something. like i find myself thinking, i wish you guys would stop acting like what deltas are supposed to be like and more natural! but maybe they are and i'm just not delta? i think i'm more outwardly emotional (but i'm not very expressive at all irl). i find myself wanting to prod, like what will happen if i say the word fuck or mention s&m (and its not like i'm even a hardcore type of person who is super concerned with these things, but its like i want to say hey this can be delta too? idk.)

Why not?

You seem to be fighting against certain "images" that you have about things. What is curious to me about how you go about things is that you seem to prefer to 'get upset' or 'present your personal dislike' about something rather than try to further investigate the workings of your discontent.

It's definitely not uncommon for delta NFs.

i guess honestly it feels...idk, like i'm supposed to calm myself and be nice and good, or something. not that i think i'm not nice and good, my default way of being is very nice i think. ugh, hard to explain.

Or what, someone is going to come over and say YOURE NOT BEING A GOOD EII?

Why are you supposed to be that way?

the main person who comes to mind is Minde, who i respect and think seems like an amazingly nice person. when i was debating with ryu she had some things to say and i found myself wondering if she agreed with me but i couldn't tell because her manner was very removed, like there was a vagueness and i couldn't tell what she really thought. which is one example of a sort of pattern i see. like...more about teaching or helping than letting her thoughts really be known?

She wasn't really addressing you, actually. Or, hm, she was, but there is a lot that goes into it. She was mostly addressing me, based on her views of 'teaching' me.

It has to do with a lot of history, and her using your views and your situation and your reaction to address other matters.

I don't know if she'll see this thread, but, maybe she will and will post here. I don't want to speak for her, but I'm trying to perhaps provide information as to what was going on that you might not be aware of.

which is more self-sacrificial than i could be.

Eh, you make a lot of decisions based off of not having a lot of information. I'm not sure if she was being self-sacrificial at all.

and also her recent reaction in a thread when i thought someone was being a total jerk and she apologized when i felt like she shouldn't have to and it made me really cringe. i respect the tolerance and i also..agajisgd;f. maybe i'm just too invested and spend too much time on here. maybe i would also be more removed and conciliatory if the personalities weren't so everyday familiar to me. i don't know. there's also a sort of head/gut separation where i think of the conciliatory/sacrificial stuff and i think that in a perfect world everybody would be able to do that, like its just a "good" way to be and i respect it. but on the other hand my immediate gut response when i see the things i've noticed them being conciliatory towards is to say NO NOT OK lol.

i feel like there's a lot i could say but it's hard to verbalize and i'm getting more and more convoluted so i'll stop. i can try to clarify whatever. also the EIIs that i do relate more to are probably Ryene (but she doesn't identify definitively as EII anymore) and maybe you.

Ryene, April, Akra in the past. You all seem similar enough. Although I don't know much about April.




To answer the thread's original question, I see Fi and Ne. Not much Se. Not strong Te. Potentially a water sign in the zodiac, heh.

[woofwoofl]

ya, things like, uh, that, are not at all uncommon for me. (context for others: being paranoid that i've offended someone and being stupidly overapologetic, or at least thats my view of it.) i haven't known whether it was attributable to type, and if so, how (Fi seeking seems like a reasonable suggestion) or if it its just because i'm a neurotic bastard lol. it was actually a wondering if i'm really good at Fi or not that led me to consider LII.

Awwww this makes me think you value a ton, because I do the same kinda thing too I gotta go with EII for you

[UDP]

i'm trying to think of how to respond to this part and i wonder if some of it is enneagram related. i think for me its like i have a hard time separating the expectations i perceive from others from what i want to do.

I spend a lot of time talking to one of my delta NF friends about that.

and yeah i can definitely revolt when they feel like too much or conflict with my own values (see altercations w/ ryu hah) but the fact that my own desires and what i see as others' desires get mixed up adds this sort of weird shame confusion component. so its sort of like, "you don't know how much i've been working to not infringe and you think you know me but you don't"...more 9ey stuff, which is mostly my own damned fault i think. blah

I don't think that's 9ey stuff. 9s handle things differently than you do, IME. You seem more E6 maybe. More anxious, more conflicting. 9s seem more avoidantly passive than you are.

I'm not really sure what to make of that or say about it, but I know what it is, and I think it is easily some element of strong and valued Fi and Ne, but weak Se. For what it's worth, someone I'm very close to is that way, and initially there was work (and still is sometimes) about creating "enemy images".

For said person, they will interpret something a certain way, and then get defensive about it, and start trusting their own personal 'vision' and image of someone more than actual reality. And so long as there is some form of evidence or occurrence of what appears to be the case, it can be fueled. And then there is this guilt complex because they don't want to be mean, and I think also, deep down, they realize they could be wrong in the nature of the images that are created.

For said person, it's also been particularly problematic in regard to certain forms of relating to people. Also for said person, they seem to have unusual issues about setting personal boundaries and properly expressing their emotions. Don't know how much that applies to you, though.



FWIW, betas NFs seem to have less of an issue with the type of expressions you're talking about. All the worrying you're doing here seems particularly delta. But I wonder if you could accept that as your take on "what people think delta is" seems to be sort of ... particular.

[ashlesha]

Why not?

You seem to be fighting against certain "images" that you have about things. What is curious to me about how you go about things is that you seem to prefer to 'get upset' or 'present your personal dislike' about something rather than try to further investigate the workings of your discontent.

It's definitely not uncommon for delta NFs.

i can see where you're coming from with this and to refrain from rehashing previous shit i'll just say that i do think about the workings of my discontent about things more than it might seem.

Or what, someone is going to come over and say YOURE NOT BEING A GOOD EII?

Why are you supposed to be that way?

it's not really that i'm afraid of being called out because i do think i'm, idk...nice and stuff, whatever EIIs are supposed to be, for the most part. but of course over the course of my life i haven't fit into a mold, i've lashed out at people, i've made rash decisions, i've been into "not nice" things or whatever, like a NORMAL FUCKING PERSON. lol. its invalidating to be reduced in the way i think type reduces. or to have assumptions made about me based on the type i claim that are way off. like in the delta NF swearing thread a few people reacted as if it were some obvious thing, that of course delta NFs are prisses. and the fact that people take such things for granted means that assumptions are being made about me based on my self-typing which is why i removed it for awhile. i hate feeling invalidated.

She wasn't really addressing you, actually. Or, hm, she was, but there is a lot that goes into it. She was mostly addressing me, based on her views of 'teaching' me.

It has to do with a lot of history, and her using your views and your situation and your reaction to address other matters.

I don't know if she'll see this thread, but, maybe she will and will post here. I don't want to speak for her, but I'm trying to perhaps provide information as to what was going on that you might not be aware of.

i knew she wasn't addressing me and that her comments had to do with a history with you. i am Fi ego, right? lol. but i was also curious how aligned her views were with mine.

Eh, you make a lot of decisions based off of not having a lot of information. I'm not sure if she was being self-sacrificial at all.

for that particular comment i was referring to her apology to parkster in the SLI appreciation thread.

To answer the thread's original question, I see Fi and Ne. Not much Se. Not strong Te. Potentially a water sign in the zodiac, heh.

i'm a taurus.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

this is extremely vague and i'm thinking we're probably talking past eachother because i couldn't find the right words (hence the question mark). so who knows what either of us is talking about. oh well. i think we might have some common ground around which we could try to figure things out but if you're more interested in teaching me basics then w/e. thanks anyway.

If it's too vague, ask me to clarify; I'm not going to be insulted. It sounds like you're just giving up, and that's far more aggravating to me. Also, you sound insulted. Care to talk about it?

[UDP]

thanks for the input, both of you. also, i've never talked to implied, but from what i've seen from her in posts i'm flattered by the comparison.

FWIW I think implied is SLI.

[ashlesha]

If it's too vague, ask me to clarify; I'm not going to be insulted. It sounds like you're just giving up, and that's far more aggravating to me. Also, you sound insulted. Care to talk about it?

ya, sorry. right now i'm about to go to bed though, so i'll post tomorrow.

[Minde]

Not every INFj on this forum has to be like Minde. Judging from this topic, it just seems to be one of many variations, there is no need to consider anyone as benchmark for a given type.

THANK YOU!


Gah! Why can't I be unique, too!?

It seems every EII here fights against their own perceived stereotypes of EII, consistently insisting they're "not like that" that they're "different." And it always seems like it comes back to how they're different from me. Why me?

Somehow I ended up as the "benchmark" of the type (*coughthanksezrachough*), and thus I'm the object of this "rebellion."

Believe it or not, I'm not *trying* to be this "ideal" EII. In fact, I'd say I'm hardly a typical EII. Especially if you take into account how every EII here is trying to prove so hard how they're different from the EII stereotype. (Because I'm apparently the only EII who doesn't especially care if I fit a description or not.)

So, here, this is me: I'm special because I DON'T CARE if I'm different or the same as the descriptions. And maybe all you other EIIs are the real EIIs because you all say you're different from the EII descriptions. And I'm the non-EII because I don't mind if I do fit it.

How's that for logic?

Except I am different from the stereotypes. I know I am, anyway, even if other people don't see it (or decide not to see it). And look! I'm bothered that people are putting me in a box! I guess I'm EII after all!!



Gosh, this is all so convoluted....






I'm not really mad, by the way. Just a wee bit frustrated.

[UDP]

it's not really that i'm afraid of being called out because i do think i'm, idk...nice and stuff, whatever EIIs are supposed to be, for the most part. but of course over the course of my life i haven't fit into a mold, i've lashed out at people, i've made rash decisions, i've been into "not nice" things or whatever, like a NORMAL FUCKING PERSON. lol. its invalidating to be reduced in the way i think type reduces.

Then what's the value of having a type, and why are you so concerned about what people see your strong IEs are?

or to have assumptions made about me based on the type i claim that are way off. like in the delta NF swearing thread a few people reacted as if it were some obvious thing, that of course delta NFs are prisses.

Why is the opinion of those few people so important? Couldn't they be wrong?

I don't really get why you so strongly identify with being aligned against ..... hmm.......... maybe I do, actually. There was a time when I argued withe everyone about 'their opinions of me', althuogh it wasn't really based on perceptions of how a type should act, just interpretations of my own actions. Maybe that's similar to what you're experiencing. It's a long story I guess.

and the fact that people take such things for granted means that assumptions are being made about me based on my self-typing which is why i removed it for awhile. i hate feeling invalidated.

I can actually understand that feeling.

I guess what I can see now, though, is that if people are going to take things like that for granted and be so shallow, that's their problem. I don't feel responsible to change them, and I don't feel like I have to defend the correct image of things.

The nature of your angst is justified, I'm sure.

i knew she wasn't addressing me and that her comments had to do with a history with you. i am Fi ego, right? lol. but i was also curious how aligned her views were with mine.

I'm supposed to blindly assume you understand relations and communications just because you're Fi ego?

for that particular comment i was referring to her apology to parkster in the SLI appreciation thread.



i'm a taurus.

Oh, that also makes somewhat of sense, but, astrology is another matter altogether.

[UDP]

THANK YOU!


Gah! Why can't I be unique, too!?

Oh yeah, I was going to quote his post too - very much so.

It seems every EII here fights against their own perceived stereotypes of EII, consistently insisting they're "not like that" that they're "different." And it always seems like it comes back to how they're different from me. Why me?

Oh, you mean other EIIs have made such remarks, too?

Rocklimber
Ritella
Lobo
Akra

...

Rockclimber "I don't think I'm an EII because I (had different views about sex at this time in my life)".

Ritella: "Minde is not like me, she's too narrow minded and angellic".

Etc

Lobo "I want to bake brownies for Ryu even though I'm a guy. But I'll never tell anyone ever". Etc.

Somehow I ended up as the "benchmark" of the type (*coughthanksezrachough*), and thus I'm the object of this "rebellion."

Believe it or not, I'm not *trying* to be this "ideal" EII. In fact, I'd say I'm hardly a typical EII. Especially if you take into account how every EII here is trying to prove so hard how they're different from the EII stereotype. (Because I'm apparently the only EII who doesn't especially care if I fit a description or not.)

So, here, this is me: I'm special because I DON'T CARE if I'm different or the same as the descriptions. And maybe all you other EIIs are the real EIIs because you all say you're different from the EII descriptions. And I'm the non-EII because I don't mind if I do fit it.

How's that for logic?

Except I am different from the stereotypes. I know I am, anyway, even if other people don't see it (or decide not to see it). And look! I'm bothered that people are putting me in a box! I guess I'm EII after all!!



Gosh, this is all so convoluted....






I'm not really mad, by the way. Just a wee bit frustrated.

Hey, I am really glad you posted that Minde.

Well done.

It's definitely............ 'old hat'.

[ashlesha]

If it's too vague, ask me to clarify; I'm not going to be insulted. It sounds like you're just giving up, and that's far more aggravating to me. Also, you sound insulted. Care to talk about it?

hm well i guess i would need to better specify what it is that makes me feel not completely comfortable settling into EII. i think its a little different than it is for you. but it involves stuff i'm not comfortable talking about. hah, boo. maybe the fact that i'm reserved about it is related to type. but i'm curious what pushed you exactly to stop typing EII. but i do think i'm probably EII so maybe it's not even relevant to talk about.

wee indecision.

anyway, what pushed you exactly to stop typing EII?

what frustrated me was i was trying to engage you on an equal level about things and your response seemed like it was saying the obvious in an attempt to teach me or something and i am pretty confident about my knowledge of basic concepts.

THANK YOU!


Gah! Why can't I be unique, too!?

It seems every EII here fights against their own perceived stereotypes of EII, consistently insisting they're "not like that" that they're "different." And it always seems like it comes back to how they're different from me. Why me?

Somehow I ended up as the "benchmark" of the type (*coughthanksezrachough*), and thus I'm the object of this "rebellion."

Believe it or not, I'm not *trying* to be this "ideal" EII. In fact, I'd say I'm hardly a typical EII. Especially if you take into account how every EII here is trying to prove so hard how they're different from the EII stereotype. (Because I'm apparently the only EII who doesn't especially care if I fit a description or not.)

So, here, this is me: I'm special because I DON'T CARE if I'm different or the same as the descriptions. And maybe all you other EIIs are the real EIIs because you all say you're different from the EII descriptions. And I'm the non-EII because I don't mind if I do fit it.

How's that for logic?

Except I am different from the stereotypes. I know I am, anyway, even if other people don't see it (or decide not to see it). And look! I'm bothered that people are putting me in a box! I guess I'm EII after all!!



Gosh, this is all so convoluted....






I'm not really mad, by the way. Just a wee bit frustrated.

i can definitely see why you are frustrated. fwiw i've never held you responsible for the stereotypes and everything that i complain about. you're sort of an innocent bystander that gets pulled into it because others see you as a "benchmark" and that's really unfair. its unfair to you because it puts a label on you that you might reject and puts you in an uncomfortable position. and its unfair for other EIIs and for the understanding at large. none of which is your fault. i brought you into it because, yeah, you're considered a benchmark, and yeah, i can see clear differences in our style of interacting...it wasn't to malign you as one of the stereotype-spreaders or put you down as an enemy or anything like that at all.

Then what's the value of having a type, and why are you so concerned about what people see your strong IEs are?


Why is the opinion of those few people so important? Couldn't they be wrong?

they are wrong, its not the point. its not about logic its about feeeeeling.

I don't really get why you so strongly identify with being aligned against ..... hmm.......... maybe I do, actually. There was a time when I argued withe everyone about 'their opinions of me', althuogh it wasn't really based on perceptions of how a type should act, just interpretations of my own actions. Maybe that's similar to what you're experiencing. It's a long story I guess.


I can actually understand that feeling.

I guess what I can see now, though, is that if people are going to take things like that for granted and be so shallow, that's their problem. I don't feel responsible to change them, and I don't feel like I have to defend the correct image of things.

The nature of your angst is justified, I'm sure.

i do think its definitely more frustrating when its personal - when your actions and words are misinterpreted. it can also be an opportunity to wonder what it is about yourself that is giving people the wrong impression or if maybe they are seeing things about you that you don't have a clear picture of from the inside.

not that i'm pro at being objective in that way. at ALL. lol.

I'm supposed to blindly assume you understand relations and communications just because you're Fi ego?

this wasn't funny.

yeah being Fi ego makes you more attuned to where relationships lie and a tendency to see things within the context of that sort of stuff.

no being Fi ego does not mean being prissy and needing to be told what to do.

if you don't understand why it bothers me for you to joke like this i don't even know what to say.

Oh yeah, I was going to quote his post too - very much so.



Oh, you mean other EIIs have made such remarks, too?

Rocklimber
Ritella
Lobo
Akra

...

Rockclimber "I don't think I'm an EII because I (had different views about sex at this time in my life)".

Ritella: "Minde is not like me, she's too narrow minded and angellic".

Etc

Lobo "I want to bake brownies for Ryu even though I'm a guy. But I'll never tell anyone ever". Etc.


Hey, I am really glad you posted that Minde.

Well done.

It's definitely............ 'old hat'.

ok this is where i got extremely frustrated.

it wasnt long ago you were making threads about prissy taskmaster-needing delta NFs. YOU perpetuate these things more than basically ANYONE.

you do NOT get to dismiss EIIs who complain as "old hat" when it is YOU.

WTF DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND HERE OMFG.

[Absurd]

Fi and Ne, it's all over this place, don't know what kind of a nut one must be to not acknowledge this.

[UDP]

they are wrong, its not the point. its not about logic its about feeeeeling.

I won't argue with you there.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

anyway, what pushed you exactly to stop typing EII?

My dominance/power/control focus is what causes me to doubt EII. The whole "You're not the boss of me" attitude seems to fit well with Delta NF; however, a want to dominate, to control, and to possess, seems less Delta. I have wondered in the past if I seek to control others because I didn't have control in my own life; once I get that straightened out, I will be interested to see what happens.

To clarify my previous comment: I used to feel like these behaviors were developed due to the crap I went through as a kid, and that I had to dig beneath them to find my real personality; basically, they were "bad" and "undesirable" behaviors that had no place in my natural make-up. I've been speaking to a psychologist since January (I got tired of being stuck in a bad situation because I couldn't bring myself to care enough to fix it), and he told me that I more likely had the potential for such behavior within myself all along. So now, the focus is not on eliminating that part of my personality but rather on finding healthier ways to express it.

what frustrated me was i was trying to engage you on an equal level about things and your response seemed like it was saying the obvious in an attempt to teach me or something and i am pretty confident about my knowledge of basic concepts.

At the least, I was taking issue with the way you worded it.

[ashlesha]

I'd be hard-pressed to see you as anything but . You strike me as demonstrably ego, introverted, and Judicious > Decisive (aka, / > /). So, that kinda narrows it down.

thanks.

I'd hazard that at least some of the type-strife you're experiencing may be subtype related—for instance IMO, you and April make good reps of -sub; while your -sub counterparts would be more along the lines of Minde and Marie84.

i've wondered if this might be the case but i'm not entirely sure there should be a stark difference with subtypes. i have an idea of what you think re: that but i'm figuring it out. it would make a lot of sense, though.

My dominance/power/control focus is what causes me to doubt EII. The whole "You're not the boss of me" attitude seems to fit well with Delta NF; however, a want to dominate, to control, and to possess, seems less Delta. I have wondered in the past if I seek to control others because I didn't have control in my own life; once I get that straightened out, I will be interested to see what happens.

yeah i don't have a desire to dominate and control. i'm not completely blind to these sorts of dynamics, for example if i'm in an argument, or if i see someone as trying to get in my way of something, but if there are other ways to deal with it - provided i'm not emotionally entrenched past reason - i'm perfectly willing to concede some power/control in order to do so (its more about what i want than about maintaining the upper hand). i do see myself as being more concerned with this stuff than might always make sense for Se polr but if this can be explained by my relationship with my mom then that simplifies things.

also in thinking of my sense of personal power its more about being on the defense and maintaining my autonomy and not at all about expansion. and when i am aggressive there are times it does work, but there are other times i come off histrionic and screechy instead. or i might try to come off influential and insistent for a purpose but it just ends up looking playful (like Ne taking the space of Se).

To clarify my previous comment: I used to feel like these behaviors were developed due to the crap I went through as a kid, and that I had to dig beneath them to find my real personality; basically, they were "bad" and "undesirable" behaviors that had no place in my natural make-up. I've been speaking to a psychologist since January (I got tired of being stuck in a bad situation because I couldn't bring myself to care enough to fix it), and he told me that I more likely had the potential for such behavior within myself all along. So now, the focus is not on eliminating that part of my personality but rather on finding healthier ways to express it.

sure, but i think everybody has the potential for any behavior. do you think you suppressed these tendencies because of the crap you went through? separating natural tendencies from environmental stuff makes things so convoluted (i know). i hope it all works out for you.

[Lobo]

This thread had me lol'ing at work today.

i have a hard time understanding this. how can you not take it seriously when other people do? (not a rhetorical question.) i mean on my own part i'm sort of a validation whore so that motivates some of my behavior, lol. but i also feel justified in trying to correct misperceptions for its own sake.

I don't believe that I represent a large portion of INFjs enough to try and "correct" a stereotype. Me saying that a description doesn't apply to me doesn't mean much, considering that people might not trust my self-typing and/or don't want to consider too many exceptions in their socionics model.

THANK YOU!


Gah! Why can't I be unique, too!?

It seems every EII here fights against their own perceived stereotypes of EII, consistently insisting they're "not like that" that they're "different." And it always seems like it comes back to how they're different from me. Why me?

Somehow I ended up as the "benchmark" of the type (*coughthanksezrachough*), and thus I'm the object of this "rebellion."

Believe it or not, I'm not *trying* to be this "ideal" EII. In fact, I'd say I'm hardly a typical EII. Especially if you take into account how every EII here is trying to prove so hard how they're different from the EII stereotype. (Because I'm apparently the only EII who doesn't especially care if I fit a description or not.)

So, here, this is me: I'm special because I DON'T CARE if I'm different or the same as the descriptions. And maybe all you other EIIs are the real EIIs because you all say you're different from the EII descriptions. And I'm the non-EII because I don't mind if I do fit it.

How's that for logic?

Except I am different from the stereotypes. I know I am, anyway, even if other people don't see it (or decide not to see it). And look! I'm bothered that people are putting me in a box! I guess I'm EII after all!!



Gosh, this is all so convoluted....




I'm not really mad, by the way. Just a wee bit frustrated.

Go Minde! .

Oh yeah, I was going to quote his post too - very much so.



Oh, you mean other EIIs have made such remarks, too?

Rocklimber
Ritella
Lobo
Akra

...

Rockclimber "I don't think I'm an EII because I (had different views about sex at this time in my life)".

Ritella: "Minde is not like me, she's too narrow minded and angellic".

Etc

Lobo "I want to bake brownies for Ryu even though I'm a guy. But I'll never tell anyone ever". Etc.

Ok, for the record, I'm sure I've never said anything like that, lol.

[ashlesha]

I don't believe that I represent a large portion of INFjs enough to try and "correct" a stereotype. Me saying that a description doesn't apply to me doesn't mean much, considering that people might not trust my self-typing and/or don't want to consider too many exceptions in their socionics model.

but what you have to say matters. other people might not trust your self-typing but do you? you have as much a right to put forth your own viewpoint as anyone else here. if you don't want to, that's ok. but then if people are confused or have the wrong idea about where you stand, you can't really blame them. i guess its just that you're not invested, which is not at all a bad thing.

[Lobo]

but what you have to say matters. other people might not trust your self-typing but do you? you have as much a right to put forth your own viewpoint as anyone else here. if you don't want to, that's ok. but then if people are confused or have the wrong idea about where you stand, you can't really blame them. i guess its just that you're not invested, which is not at all a bad thing.

Hehe, alright. I've self-typed INFj ever since I started learning about Socionics and I don't think it's ever been put under serious questioning. And yeah, it's also that I'm not very invested, lol.

[munenori2]

Eh, INFj sounds good to me.

[ashlesha]

i'm EII. if i ask again, taze me or something.

[Korpsy Knievel]

i'm EII. if i ask again, taze me or something.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

yeah i don't have a desire to dominate and control. i'm not completely blind to these sorts of dynamics, for example if i'm in an argument, or if i see someone as trying to get in my way of something, but if there are other ways to deal with it - provided i'm not emotionally entrenched past reason - i'm perfectly willing to concede some power/control in order to do so (its more about what i want than about maintaining the upper hand). i do see myself as being more concerned with this stuff than might always make sense for Se polr but if this can be explained by my relationship with my mom then that simplifies things.

also in thinking of my sense of personal power its more about being on the defense and maintaining my autonomy and not at all about expansion. and when i am aggressive there are times it does work, but there are other times i come off histrionic and screechy instead. or i might try to come off influential and insistent for a purpose but it just ends up looking playful (like Ne taking the space of Se).

OK.

sure, but i think everybody has the potential for any behavior. do you think you suppressed these tendencies because of the crap you went through? separating natural tendencies from environmental stuff makes things so convoluted (i know). i hope it all works out for you.

Which tendencies? The dominating ones?

Thanks. I'm working on it.

[DirectorAbbie]

I'd mark and .

[Absurd]

I still do see Fi and Ne, at least that's what I did see having the pleasure talking to her, nothing changed there.

Maybe you, Spock are, you know, like not seeing things properly ?

[DirectorAbbie]

This is a thread about strong functions, not valued functions. I think she's strong in and .

[UDP]

Heh, another "Absurd likes laghlagh" post. It's cute.

I still do see Fi and Ne, at least that's what I did see having the pleasure talking to her, nothing changed there.

Maybe you, Spock are, you know, like not seeing things properly ?

At any rate, she wouldn't be EII if she wasn't strong in both and .
I'd definitely say that F and N are strong functions for laghlagh.

[Ritella]

Ritella: "Minde is not like me, she's too narrow minded and angellic".

Have I ACTUALLY said that? If so, I'm sorry because it's not quite right. I think that Minde and I are different but I wouldn't describe her as narrow-minded or even angelic, really.
If not, please don't put things in quotes unless it's actually verbatim.