Alphas being the devil's advocate.
Blaze has brought up here and there the ILE devil's advocate thing. I notice that I do it habitually as well, but in different ways. I never let anyone get away with only seeing one side of a conflict, no matter how close they are to me (in fact, the closer they are, the more likely I am to automatically come up with feel obligated to try to make them understand the other side)
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Last edited by bg; 07-15-2010 at 08:11 PM.
ILE aren't devil's advocates.Originally Posted by Bionicgoat
We're the devil.
Actually why ILE seem to be devil's advocates is because we do not believe in many conventional interpretation of things.-PoLR combined without the need for a lot of status or power make it so we can basically say whatever is on our mind about a subject in many situations. I don't really care that a ILE cares whether something is presented in all sides or not, at least I don't, I just want to express my opinion and attack things I feel is illogical.
Biblically, the devil offered the apple from the tree of knowledge and this caused the fall of man. This is a lie.
The devil offered the apple from the tree of knowledge and this caused the rise of man.
Man did not fall from paradise, we rose from hell and the devil who offered the apple from the tree of knowledge is far more a symbolic savior then a god which demands worship, faith, and ignorance.
I do this as well, although more frequently I'll think about doing it, but then decide it's not worth the trouble. I would expect ILEs to be more vocal about it.
Quaero Veritas.
hah I never think about it until after when I realize that all I seem to do is contradict people. then again, it bothers me more that nobody seems capable of seeing through the other persons eyes
Needing to express things from all sides sounds more like an idealistic cause that some NF (particularly delta NF) might care about. I might like for there to be a ton of different info floating around so I can bounce ideas, but I'm more interested in finding a single truth and being the first to organize it into something coherent.
I agree with what hkkmr said about exposing people's weak logic and just saying what's on my mind, and also being a bitch to people with different ideas.
after thinking about it, it isn't a matter of playing devil's advocate. it's a matter of people habitually seeing things the wrong way and me not being able to live with that. so yeah... it's the same thing.
ILEs also seem to suffer from a chronic arrogance as well.ILE aren't devil's advocates.
We're the devil.
Actually why ILE seem to be devil's advocates is because we do not believe in many conventional interpretation of things.
Biblically, the devil offered the apple from the tree of knowledge and this caused the fall of man. This is a lie.
The devil offered the apple from the tree of knowledge and this caused the rise of man.
Man did not fall from paradise, we rose from hell and the devil who offered the apple from the tree of knowledge is far more a symbolic savior then a god which demands worship, faith, and ignorance.
D-SEI9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
To be fair, my chances of being a bitch go up if the other guy is already a jerk.
But don't we love it?
Yeah, it's not so much an NF "can't we all just get along" thing, but more of a "your opinion of his opinion is incorrect, let me explain it to you" thing. I feel the same need to speak up when people make logical errors or grammatical mistakes.
Quaero Veritas.
Well, I think it makes sense that Ne valuers in general will like to discuss/listen to all sides of a situation. I've met a few ILEs and all of them are so different though... However, I do know one who plays devil's advocate for its own sake and that tends to annoy when you don't want to be playing that kind of game.
Whoa, whoa, whoa...let's just suppose you're all wrong just a second.
Wouldn't that mean in actual fact the reason you see things this way is that you are all wrong?
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Jungian theory is not grounded in empirical data (pdf file)
The case against type dynamics (pdf file)
Cautionary comments regarding the MBTI (pdf file)
Reinterpreting the MBTI via the five-factor model (pdf file)
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Perhaps this is better described as defending your quadra-mates, rather than defending the perspectives of anyone at all?
LII-Ne
"Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
- Blair Houghton
Johari
I theorize that Ni-leading, Ti-leading, Ti-creative, and Ni-creative are prone to play devil's advocates at times much more than other types. Of course, I have nothing scientific to substantiate such a claim upon a unifying reality other than the one created in my head. I've just wasted 10 seconds of your life. You're welcome. *Puts on a monocle*
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That's half the Socion, including the entire Beta quadra.
ya seeing a conflict from all sides is not playing the devil's advocate. Encouraging conflict on all sides is playing the devil's advocate.
I don't see how playing the devil's advocate is much of a "can't we all get along". Usually when I play Devil's Advocate it raises tension, lol.
I seem to be on the same page as most of the people in here in that I usually play Devil's advocate to highlight a flaw in reasoning. Sometimes I don't even agree with what I'm saying, but I say it because I can't tolerate the illogical rational for the other person's stance.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
(WARNING: I may have rambled off topic with this post, but I'm going to hit 'submit' anyways)
hah this thread is being bombarded by alpha NTs giving their opinions from a correcting errors in logic perspective. I totally get what you guys are saying. I'm not sure if "devil's advocate" was the right way to phrase what I had in mind for this thread.
I'm not sure how to put this... for me, I'm pointing out errors in ethics (maybe)? As an example... my best friend sells drugs. Somebody who she considered a good friend, instead of just a "customer", gathered up a fair amount of debt to her in drug fronts. Then one day talked her into further fronting out to almost double his debt with all the expected assurances of coming right back to pay off everything he owed her. Well, he didn't come back, in fact he dissapeared from her life pretty much. He went from regularly stopping by to see her (to see how she was doing) etc... to obviously avoiding her.
My friend's reacted to it by getting hurt, pissed, and everything else that you would expect. Without necessarily putting on a billboard, she told the story of what he did to many of her "friends" ending the tale with "Well, it goes to show that you can't trust anyone" and "I considered him one of my closest friends, the money doesn't matter, it's that be took advantage of my trust." From listening to her, she gave every indication their friendship was over now because of it and she would never be able to trust him again.
Everybody else (not just "costomers" but her family even) went along with her with "what an asshole!", "that is sooo fucked up!", "Nope, you can't trust people in this world." and "I'll get your money out of him!" etc... Like her, they all seemed to focus on the fact that he ripped her off and took advantage of her trust, and judged him solely on that. I, on the other hand, saw the most important thing in her saying "I considered him one of my closest friends".
Instead of feeding or letting her keep focused on the other stuff, I brought it back to that part whenever it came up. Over the next two months I gradually helped her see that if he really was the close friend that she said she considered him as, she should accept that he's a human, and humans fuck up. Friendship > drugs, especially for those you honestly do care about.
Anyways, at this point my way of seeing the situation has gotten through to her enough to have him over to her apt a few times and it appears that it's going to work out in the end.
Maybe my point with this thread was to talk about how I seem to see things in a different light than most people which seems way umm... better? clearer? righter? more realistic yet in some way more positive? idk.... lol... I'm sick of writing.
ya that does not sound like devil's advocate one bit. If anything, sounds more like taking a step back from the immediate situation to figure out what is valuable. I can see why Ne types value community values like friendship over authoritian values like law.
k I suck. I swear I had a devil's advocate situation in mind when I started this thread yesterday (maybe)
The only time I really play devil's advocate is when I know the other person won't take it seriously and I can really joke about it. I can't really think of too many times where I seriously play the devil's advocate.
My brother that I think is alpha NT used to do it as a kid all the time, mostly because he knew it would drive my sister's INSANE to continually question their logic from the other point of view. It usually ended with my IxFj sister screaming for him to stop.
actually I can come up with plenty of devil's advocate moments, when I get home though.
that was awesome what you did, BG. Very cool that you basically salvaged the friendship.
IEI-Fe 4w3
One thing they say about "Extraverted Intuitive Types" and MBTI/Socionics ENTps/ILEs is that they can argue something from several points of view, which is why they tend to make great lawyers.... and can seem like arrogant assholes, because they are great at finding ways to effectively frame an ideas.
Although many NTs are good at arguing its not so much like the ENTp way, they are more clever and seat-of-the-pants ingenuity. INTj's are more rigorous and to the point, INTp's are more methodical and precise, and ENTj's are different from the ENTp in the way they are more on point and focused on one point of view, rather than being flexible.
The devil's advocate come in here also, ENTp's are so used to being able to argue from all sides, to actually touch on a semblance of truth its typical for them to play out little scenarios from different points of view, that's the Ne-Ego in action.
Interestingly enough I think ENFp's are very similar... they are dominant Ne, but they are less logical... its more Fi based... they combine that scenario playing thing with people ethics, values and worldviews (Fi). Which is why they are so humanistic and broad-minded and easily accepted of other people's different cultures.
ENTp's have this quality also but the Ti-creative makes it so that they often feel confused about Fi-matters. It's like they can see the different perspectives... but they have trouble empathizing... they turn to analysis instead.
Also to mention... ESTp's and ENTp's each can seem arrogant due to the logical ExTp. But the ESTp is more coersive and Se based in the way they argue or convince, while the ENTp is more inventive and logical in the way they argue or convince. The ESTp will manipulate the situation to get what they want (utilizing Se), forcing you to meet their agenda, and thus seem like an ass. The ENTp will find a loophole to get what they want (utilizing Ne), forcing you to accept their action as valid and fair, and thus seem like an ass. ENTp's and ESTp's get along great because they both have this kind of outlook and are used to finding clever ways to work things to get what they want, and both are used to seeming like an asshole by having this utilitarian perspective... but they tend to be competitive and their base functions are different worlds... so they tend to respect each other, compete and work together, but they tend to do things differently all the time.
Now take the ESTp/ENTp phenomenon and flip the Ti with Se/Ne to consider the ISTj/INTj. The ISTj builds a system which forces (Se) one to comply correctly, which is why they are protocol obsessed. The INTj builds a system which considers all possible scenarios (Ne), which is why they excel at mathematics/physics and general theories about things.
Last edited by male; 07-16-2010 at 09:41 PM.
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I think the "SLE restraint" you speak of is because they are very tactical in what they say. They use words coersively to try to influence (IEI duel seeking), so they are very tactful in the way they say things... but internally this tact does not exist.
The "ILE" one the other hand is more strategically focused. They figure its possible to salvage a tactical blunder by modifying their strategy. What ILE's fear is loosing a strategic advantage, which to them is manifested by having some leverage or a one-up... that ace in the sleeve so to speak.
SLE's interestingly don't focus on this so much, but it impresses them (Ne-role). They figure, if they play things smart tactically they won't have to have some leverage or strategy and they can improv it.
The ILE figures that as long as they hold the strategic high ground, they can afford to make one or two tactical mistakes. However great tactics impress them (Se-role).
Both have Fe-HA (to try to influence the mood of themselves and others), but they have trouble doing this... which IxFp's do for them and in return they satisfy the IxFp's Ti-HA.
IEI dual seeking I mean, not duel seeking lol
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But seriously speaking, as iterated before, I think all Ne-types have the potential to play the devil's advocate. I've been accused of being "argumentative" because I bring attention to an alternative or obscure perspective that I think is a consequence of whatever statement that is being defended. It is the nature of Extroverted Intuition.
Ceci n'est pas une eii.
absolutely right.
IEI dual seeking I mean, not duel seeking lol
IEI-Fe 4w3
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Or as reinin would call it, the devilish types. Then he calls the other side of the dichotomy the dumb-ass girl alliance.
... is it really that hard to do anything right the first time?
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PreciselyBased on my experience, it's not the case of Ni-Creative. EIE might sometimes, LIE rather never, unless the Devil is useful with something or on their side - they're the advocate of everything in their advantage
Yes. I was mostly joking and being very general as a result. You sound like you had something more detailed in mind though, unless you were just showing your disapproval of the idea regardless of how it was intended. I'm not really sure which one.
Lol this is giving me a hard on to play strategy games.... hahah. Personally action games were always my genre, but I've had one or two strategy games I've played before and really enjoyed. It takes a while to learn the ropes with a strategy game.
o hai ai du dis tu
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Its a good thing everything is predictable, then.Rationals can't cope well at all with the unpredictable, get used to it
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