ESE and stirring up others against you

[Jarno]

Is this a common tactic of ESE's?

When ESE's don't like someone, they are going to stir up other people against them.

Example: my ex ESE would stir up my friends by telling something bad about me in the hope that they wouldn't like me or choose her side.

Example: my neighbour doesn't like it when I let my cat out. Now she's trying to stir up other neighbours so they will dislike me too. (I overheard this through my open window heheh)

[electric sheep]

oh god yes.

I had this major conflict with an ESE where I used to work. She was a sneaky bitch too, she never said anything around me. The few things I could gather was that there was this laundry list of things I did that she didn't like, and she would take this "list" to my bosses every so often, and they would tell me that "people" don't like the way I am at work, or something incredibly vague like that. I think they eventually caught on to what she was trying to do, and it kinda backfired on her in the end .

At no point did she confront me on the issue.

[pluie]

hahaha wow
i'm wondering if there is an actual, valid correlation here, but yeah, i was guessing my aunt is an ESE, and she does this and it's gotten her bad places, so...

basically... LOL

[Jarno]

Great.

So it seems it is typical for ESE's.

And they even play this trick on LII's too I see '-)

[Jarno]

I was just thinking about this today.

I'm reminded of my experience living on a socially active street, directed by a head ESE 'hostess'. The day I moved into the house, she drop by to welcome me onto the street. She wanted to give me a warm hug and I backed away. I was also in the midst of signing off on my move with the movers. Long story short, she managed/controlled social activities (and the neighbours). I typically did not participate as it seemed like controlling measures more than just having plain fun. Tension grew when I started dating the man she secretly loved. The women in the neighbourhood (mostly ESEs), 'guided' by the ESE head hostess tried to stop this man from seeing me. I was pure evil. It all culminated in a yelling match on the street when she called to tell me what I 'should' do with my unruly dog. Her husband pulled me aside to say everyone on the street disliked me. I was tempted to tell him that his wife just recently declared her love to the guy I was dating (ironically his best friend). But, my friend did this for me. It didn't matter though, since the ESE managed to convince her husband that his best friend was lying. Redemption, though, when the (ex)husband contacted us ten years later to apologize.

Ah, good times...

What a story!

And I recognize many parts of it.

I have such an ESE hostess of the neighbourhood too! She was the one first striking up a conversation. But what is really interesting is that I experienced it exactly like you, more a sort of getting control over me, then really nice invitation to the neighbourhood.

I used to think that my evaluation of ESE's was based on presumptions because of my knowledge that it's my conflictor. But I think it's fair to say that they all have a really mean side. I also recall having read something about backstabbing in a ESE description.

[Creepy-]

I have definitely noticed ESEs doing this. In my experience, you may never know they have a problem w you unless you either overhear them gossipping about you or someone else tells you.

As one example, my ESE aunt does this kind of thing - it's like she's trying to rally support for her side, which seems sneaky to me. I could never understand why she wouldn't just go and say something to the person herself. Why? I guess because she thinks that saying something = being mean [oh, irony]. It has always mystified me, but if I suggest that then she acts scandalized, like it would be barbaric to say something directly to them.

What say the ESEs?

[Bardia]

I have noticed this in female ESEs. One was in my youth group and she would try to turn others against other females she didn't like. But that situation was pretty interesting because there were a lot of bitchy girls in that group who liked to do that. The other would be an ESE friend of mine. If there is someone she doesn't like she will often bring up bad traits or things that person did, sometimes even when it doesn't fit the conversation. I guess her strategy is if I say it enough people will believe it to be true. I'm not sure if male ESEs use the same tactic.

[redbaron]

I've never seen my husband try to stir people up against someone else. He doesn't like confrontation but he doesn't do sneaky things like that. I'll bet that's more of a female thing anyway.

[Creepy-bg]

the political motivations you guys are seeing surprises me. I've known plenty of ESEs and none of them have gone about this sort of stuff for those reasons. not saying that it doesn't happen, just that I haven't experienced it.

imo ESEs are honest people who like to talk... They will generally be pleasant in person, even with those they have problems with, but not two-faced imo. they won't tell you that they like you if they don't, they just won't mention it unless it happens to come up. They also can come off as gosips because they love to talk about people... this isn't to spread rumors though, it's just that they talk about people and they'll be honest about how they feel, what they've experienced of others and what they think about them when talking to people. Again, imo this isn't being done to start shit or to get up on somebody else or to make others feel a certain way about them, they are just being honest about their experiences with them.

I think that you guys are attributing political motivations that just aren't there (even if it comes off as politcal seeming to others).

[Banana Pancakes]

They're gossipy and express their feelings too easily, which gets them into trouble.

Like bg said though I don't feel like it's necessarily conniving or manipulative. It depends entirely on the person.

They necessarily don't try to force people into feeling what they feel either (cough...EIE...cough).

[redbaron]

They're gossipy and express their feelings too easily, which gets them into trouble
They necessarily don't try to force people into feeling what they feel either (cough...EIE...cough).

yes.

[redbaron]

imo ESEs are honest people who like to talk... They will generally be pleasant in person, even with those they have problems with, but not two-faced imo. they won't tell you that they like you if they don't, they just won't mention it unless it happens to come up. They also can come off as gosips because they love to talk about people... this isn't to spread rumors though, it's just that they talk about people and they'll be honest about how they feel, what they've experienced of others and what they think about them when talking to people. Again, imo this isn't being done to start shit or to get up on somebody else or to make others feel a certain way about them, they are just being honest about their experiences with them.
.

all of this is very true. I actually have to be careful what I tell my husband if I don't want anyone else to know. I have to tell him specifically "please don't talk about this to anyone". LOL! I even had to tell him not to talk about me in his status updates on facebook because I don't want the whole world knowing what I'm up to. There are no negative intentions on his part--he just loves people, interaction and expressing himself.

[misutii]

They're gossipy and express their feelings too easily, which gets them into trouble.

Like bg said though I don't feel like it's necessarily conniving or manipulative. It depends entirely on the person.

They necessarily don't try to force people into feeling what they feel either (cough...EIE...cough).

I've noticed the gossipy type of verbal aggression [mentioned in this thread] in female ESEs as well as in other (mostly) female types (i.e. SLE). I've always assumed it's root cause was the result of some kind of subconscious psychological repression, though stupidity is always a close second. The (usual) male equivalent would be the moron who goes out drinking and gets into fights, and often talks about how he could kick the shit out of so and so etc. In both cases there's something rotten in Kansas so best bet is to stay out of the state.

[electric sheep]

the political motivations you guys are seeing surprises me. I've known plenty of ESEs and none of them have gone about this sort of stuff for those reasons. not saying that it doesn't happen, just that I haven't experienced it.

imo ESEs are honest people who like to talk... They will generally be pleasant in person, even with those they have problems with, but not two-faced imo. they won't tell you that they like you if they don't, they just won't mention it unless it happens to come up. They also can come off as gosips because they love to talk about people... this isn't to spread rumors though, it's just that they talk about people and they'll be honest about how they feel, what they've experienced of others and what they think about them when talking to people. Again, imo this isn't being done to start shit or to get up on somebody else or to make others feel a certain way about them, they are just being honest about their experiences with them.

I think that you guys are attributing political motivations that just aren't there (even if it comes off as politcal seeming to others). Alpha SFs just don't see the world that way and generally find politics distastefull, imo.

I think in my case the ESE was actually surprised to find out that my bosses reprimanded me when she told them bad things about me. I knew she was a gossip queen, but I don't think she really had it out for me--she just liked to bitch about people. She bitched to the wrong people and I faced the consequences. We were still very civil to each other in person and she didn't really do anything that I would consider unforgivable. I'm sure we could have set everything straight, but since I was in a lower position I couldn't exactly chew her out for talking shit about me. I blame office politics.

I know I'm contradicting myself. I can see two ways of looking at the issue and I'm still not sure what to make of it. Yea, she could've had it out for me, or maybe she didn't, I can't really tell.

Could it be part of PoLR? Not knowing the consequences of your actions?
Maybe weak ? Not knowing the implications of what you're saying?

[Banana Pancakes]

Could it be part of PoLR? Not knowing the consequences of your actions?
Maybe weak ? Not knowing the implications of what you're saying?

Yes I think so on weak , they just let it all rip in the moment as long as the listeners don't visibly have a problem with it.

[Wynch]

I agree with BG and BP, that I think that kind of behaviour isn't so much malicious as being very honest. For the most part. In incognito's example I know the person she's talking about, and that woman was a psycho. I think the core of that woman's problem was that she was a crazy bitch, and her malice manifested in the easiest way she knew how - socially.

[electric sheep]

I agree with BG and BP, that I think that kind of behaviour isn't so much malicious as being very honest. For the most part. In incognito's example I know the person she's talking about, and that woman was a psycho. I think the core of that woman's problem was that she was a crazy bitch, and her malice manifested in the easiest way she knew how - socially.

This could be one of the key differences between EIE and ESE. An EIE tries to rouse people to act, whereas ESEs just vent to get things off their chest. I don't think ESEs can anticipate what people will do after hearing one of their bitch sessions, but it might be easier for an EIE.

[redbaron]

This could be one of the key differences between EIE and ESE. An EIE tries to rouse people to act, whereas ESEs just vent to get things off their chest. I don't think ESEs can anticipate what people will do after hearing one of their bitch sessions, but it might be easier for an EIE.

Yup, exactly.

[Wynch]

ESEs have very good people skills, but they tend to live in the moment. they aren't static, but they tend to work with what is available and going on around them. That is what I've observed at least.

[07490]

ESEs have very good people skills, but they tend to live in the moment. they aren't static, but they tend to work with what is available and going on around them. That is what I've observed at least.

I have always wonder how Alpha NT feel about this, I actually think ILE would admire this trait more so than LII but since long term goals, looking ahead and the ambition it will cause, I am curious how an ILE will look at this in terms of finding one as a partner. I used to be very closed with an ILE and get to know her thought partners well, and I think SEI fits her bill much better since I think SEI do have long term plans.

[Warlord]

Is this a common tactic of ESE's?

When ESE's don't like someone, they are going to stir up other people against them.

Example: my ex ESE would stir up my friends by telling something bad about me in the hope that they wouldn't like me or choose her side.

Example: my neighbour doesn't like it when I let my cat out. Now she's trying to stir up other neighbours so they will dislike me too. (I overheard this through my open window heheh)

It's very typical of FeSi's. Happens often, in various different forms.

Although I'm not suprised to comments to the contrary. Obviously they wouldn't do it, if there weren't people who fall for it.

[Creepy-]

What do you think of this example?:

My ESE aunt has a neighbor with a dog who barked for over an hour the other night before they brought the dog inside, ceasing the barking. This has happened before, and it is very irritating to my aunt [as it would probably be to most people], and she has a particular [peculiar?] way of dealing with it that is very characteristic of her:

Instead of asking the woman nicely and directly to please bring her dog inside when he starts to bark at night, my aunt went through the neighborhood committee and had them include in their monthly flyer a request to neighbors to be considerate of each other by not allowing their dogs to disturb the peace by barking incessantly. So instead of speaking directly to the offending neighbor, my aunt told the other neighbors about it [making it clear whom she was talking about] and arranged to have everyone in the neighborhood receive the same notification. Everyone knows whom it's aimed at, but she avoided bringing it up directly with that person. [If I were that neighbor, btw, I would be very, very irritated at that way of handling the situation. Seems sneaky to me. No me gusta.]

As always when I asked why she didn't just talk to the woman herself, she acted like that was a horrible, inhuman idea. Her way of dealing with it is similar to the way she deals w most problems. I can definitely see how this could be seen as stirring up others against someone. That's how I see it[though I kept that opinion to myself, which was very hard to do!], but she doesn't see it that way at all.

Anyway, this reminded me of this thread because in effect she did go about addressing the problem non-directly and stir up others to her side, but I can see that she didn't mean any harm; that's just her way.

[Satan]

What do you think of this example?:

My ESE aunt has a neighbor with a dog who barked for over an hour the other night before they brought the dog inside, ceasing the barking. This has happened before, and it is very irritating to my aunt [as it would probably be to most people], and she has a particular [peculiar?] way of dealing with it that is very characteristic of her:

Instead of asking the woman nicely and directly to please bring her dog inside when he starts to bark at night, my aunt went through the neighborhood committee and had them include in their monthly flyer a request to neighbors to be considerate of each other by not allowing their dogs to disturb the peace by barking incessantly. So instead of speaking directly to the offending neighbor, my aunt told the other neighbors about it [making it clear whom she was talking about] and arranged to have everyone in the neighborhood receive the same notification. Everyone knows whom it's aimed at, but she avoided bringing it up directly with that person. [If I were that neighbor, btw, I would be very, very irritated at that way of handling the situation. Seems sneaky to me. No me gusta.]

As always when I asked why she didn't just talk to the woman herself, she acted like that was a horrible, inhuman idea. Her way of dealing with it is similar to the way she deals w most problems. I can definitely see how this could be seen as stirring up others against someone. That's how I see it[though I kept that opinion to myself, which was very hard to do!], but she doesn't see it that way at all.

Anyway, this reminded me of this thread because in effect she did go about addressing the problem non-directly and stir up others to her side, but I can see that she didn't mean any harm; that's just her way.

someone should kill her cat

that's fucking ludicrious. to the point that revenge against her, or those close to her will help to balance the playing field.

[Satan]

As always when I asked why she didn't just talk to the woman herself, she acted like that was a horrible, inhuman idea. Her way of dealing with it is

That's their game. SHE ACTED LIKE ... that was a HORRIBLE INHUMAN idea.... but they need to be TURNED .. towards .. what effects their actions have how THEY WOULD FEEL .. if that was done to them. .. and TAUGHT .. a lesson ..

[Creepy-bg]

I would see that Aunt/dog situation as... I don't want to single out my neighbor or make them feel that we're in some sort of feud, so I go through the channels to set up a general rule that all have to follow. She's providing the neighbor with a way to save face in a way by not singling her out over it. Also, the problem of the annoying neighbor with a barking dog is now blanket dealt with for all neighbors who may have annoying barking dogs next door.

I can understand people who consider a direct confrontation with the woman to be... well... the more direct way to deal with it. But I think that you guys are seeing something whose motive may have been to "keep the peace" in the neighborhood as some sneaky underhanded passive-aggresive tactic.

[jewels]

I had an ESE friend hit on guys I liked just about every time we went out. It was so annoying.

Once I talked to this guy for an hour or so. I was trying to decide if I liked him. I left for a sec to go to the bathroom and came back to find her talking to him, with her phone out, getting the guy's facebook. She looked shocked I was back so soon and said "oh....I was just getting that to uh...put you guys in touch! You know...uh...networking!"

Then a couple weeks later she tried to get me to go to this birthday party of his, saying "OMG I really like this guy he's so cute!" completely forgetting the back story of how she "met" him. (and of course she never put us in touch lol).

She then did that at another event shortly after. I was talking to a guy for a few mins and she comes over and makes a big flirty gesture and smiles and kinda stands almost in between us. So I backed off (as I'm not going to compete like that). She was so forward though that the guy after a few minutes asked her to come home and F*** him. (using those words). When she said no, he left.

Ick.

Not all are like that. But she sometimes does not anticipate the results of what she's doing beyond the next thirty seconds.

Other ESEs I've met have more foresight though.

[Creepy-bg]

I had an ESE friend hit on guys I liked just about every time we went out. It was so annoying.

Once I talked to this guy for an hour or so. I was trying to decide if I liked him. I left for a sec to go to the bathroom and came back to find her talking to him, with her phone out, getting the guy's facebook. She looked shocked I was back so soon and said "oh....I was just getting that to uh...put you guys in touch! You know...uh...networking!"

Then a couple weeks later she tried to get me to go to this birthday party of his, saying "OMG I really like this guy he's so cute!" completely forgetting the back story of how she "met" him. (and of course she never put us in touch lol).

She then did that at another event shortly after. I was talking to a guy for a few mins and she comes over and makes a big flirty gesture and smiles and kinda stands almost in between us. So I backed off (as I'm not going to compete like that). She was so forward though that the guy after a few minutes asked her to come home and F*** him. (using those words). When she said no, he left.

Ick.

Not all are like that. But she sometimes does not anticipate the results of what she's doing beyond the next thirty seconds.

Other ESEs I've met have more foresight though.

lol wow... just wow.. I have no reasonable sounding explanation for this one

[Creepy-]

I would see that Aunt/dog situation as... I don't want to single out my neighbor or make them feel that we're in some sort of feud, so I go through the channels to set up a general rule that all have to follow. She's providing the neighbor with a way to save face in a way by not singling her out over it. Also, the problem of the annoying neighbor with a barking dog is now blanket dealt with for all neighbors who may have annoying barking dogs next door.

I can understand people who consider a direct confrontation with the woman to be... well... the more direct way to deal with it. But I think that you guys are seeing something whose motive may have been to "keep the peace" in the neighborhood as some sneaky underhanded passive-aggresive tactic.

I think that approaching someone directly can be done gracefully so that it doesn't start a feud. In fact, the way she went about it - w everyone knowing who was complaining and about whom - she made it much more likely that there will be a problem bt them, since now instead of it being a private conversation between Aunt ESE and the neighbor, it's a public thing.

[Creepy-bg]

well maybe she just doesn't like her neighbor and didn't want to go over there and be friendly about it. Barking dogs are fucking annoying. she should have done a home invasion and killed the whole lot of them

lol but seriously, I get what you guys are saying. I'm just trying to show how it might have worked in her head.

[Trevor]

Yes. It's the thingy ESFjs are prone to do. But what pisses me off is the interpretation of the thingy as something mean and calculated. It's not.

[AQ]

Yes. It's the thingy ESFjs are prone to do. But what pisses me off is the interpretation of the thingy as something mean and calculated. It's not.

Agree completely.

More than ESEs, I find FiSes prone to discussing people and also being into consensus-building. While completing our Masters, my ESI friend would constantly let me know which group had what happening in it.
I also find INFps and ENFjs 'discussing people', and I have often had reason to suspect their intent behind it.

Also, to be honest, part of my job involves 'networking' professionally, which means I take interest in who is up to what ... and am no ESE ...

[Mea]

What do you think of this example?:

My ESE aunt has a neighbor with a dog who barked for over an hour the other night before they brought the dog inside, ceasing the barking. This has happened before, and it is very irritating to my aunt [as it would probably be to most people], and she has a particular [peculiar?] way of dealing with it that is very characteristic of her:

Instead of asking the woman nicely and directly to please bring her dog inside when he starts to bark at night, my aunt went through the neighborhood committee and had them include in their monthly flyer a request to neighbors to be considerate of each other by not allowing their dogs to disturb the peace by barking incessantly. So instead of speaking directly to the offending neighbor, my aunt told the other neighbors about it [making it clear whom she was talking about] and arranged to have everyone in the neighborhood receive the same notification. Everyone knows whom it's aimed at, but she avoided bringing it up directly with that person. [If I were that neighbor, btw, I would be very, very irritated at that way of handling the situation. Seems sneaky to me. No me gusta.]

As always when I asked why she didn't just talk to the woman herself, she acted like that was a horrible, inhuman idea. Her way of dealing with it is similar to the way she deals w most problems. I can definitely see how this could be seen as stirring up others against someone. That's how I see it[though I kept that opinion to myself, which was very hard to do!], but she doesn't see it that way at all.

Anyway, this reminded me of this thread because in effect she did go about addressing the problem non-directly and stir up others to her side, but I can see that she didn't mean any harm; that's just her way.

If that happened to me, I would be EXTREMELY irritated.
I'd rather the person tell me that in my face.

I don't care if it's done politely or rudely when that neighbor speaks to me, but the above mentioned way is really the worst IMO.

However, back on topic, I can see ESEs tend to "stir up others against you", but I don't think it's intentional, more like them trying to vent or share their feelings...?