ENFps & ISTps: their hidden agendas

[tereg]

Ok, I pretty much hold the same sentiments as some others in this thread with regards to dedicating a good amount of time researching some topic or idea that suddenly pops into my head.

But I want to take a more refined look at one reason why I might be motivated to look up things to learn about things I don't know or don't understand.

I find that this situation arises frequently enough for me, personally and in my opinion speaks more to the character of "hidden agenda":

Basically there's always this nagging need for me to ... I guess it's kind of this temptation to always want to say "Yeah, I know that/Yeah, I know what you're talking about" to people when they talk about a topic that I'm somewhat familiar with, but don't know enough to intelligently comment on.

I don't like being caught not knowing something, which if a particular situation causes me to be embarrassed because I got caught, then I'll frantically look up a bunch of information on the topic I just embarassed myself on to prevent it from happening again.

I sometimes try too hard to appear like I know what I'm talking about (whatever it might be) that I'm knowledgeable in the topic I'm talking about. There's this pressure I feel sometimes when I'm on the spot and I need to provide information, particularly about things that I know to a degree, but not proficient at.


Here's an example of that that I just thought of. When I was in 7th grade (that was 14 years ago, folks), each grade was preparing for the End-of-the-Year program, a program that showcased some skits and songs from each grade and then a big song with the entire school at the end. I went to a very small private elementary school, so, trust me, it worked.

That particular year, in preparation, each grade was given the theme to follow for the program. It was MTV that year. So, our grade decided to do a mock version of the show Lip Service.

This was MTV's Lip Service --

"Lip Service" was one of MTV's original game-show series. Contestants were divided up into 2 teams of 3, with both teams battling to determine which group was more adept at the art of lip-sync. One round has both teams performing to a pre-rehearsed song of their choice...and the speed-round has each team member ad-libbing to randomly selected tunes, played in rapid-fire order. In another round, the in-house D.J. skipped the records to make things tougher. Points are awarded by a panel of judges for lip-sync & showmanship (the more the contestants dance and jerk around, the higher the score). The team with the most points at the end jump up and down and win some real lame prizes.

Sounds normal, right? Well, as soon as the theme and then the idea was thrown out, I started to get nervous. I had very very little exposure to MTV at the time, and musically, that was a time in which I had pretty much just listened to Oldies up to that point.

But, there was no way around it, I had to force or BS my way through it. Well, we start rehearsing, and... I mean I remember this like it was yesterday... but, I go up there on one of the rehearsals, not knowing what song they were going to give me. They give me "The Sign" by Ace of Base. So I'm trying to lip-sync my way through a song I don't know, and obviously epically failed. And I was devastated. Of course people that noticed that it was affecting me were trying to cheer me up "Don't worry about it man, look at him, he doesn't know his song either! You'll be fine, dude."

Well, what ended up happening was the school board decided to change the overall theme of the End-of-the-Year program... I guess some angry parents complained or something. Anyways, they changed it to "Country" themed, as in country western. So, we ended up doing a mock skit of Hee Haw, and everything on that end was just fine.

But the Lip Service bit stuck with me. I couldn't shake it. So, it became the primary reason that I started to listen to modern rock/alternative/top 40 music and watching MTV more. I remember the day that I changed the channel on the radio to and from school to the top 40 station, and my mom was like "Why are you listening to this?"

I tried to mask explaining the situation by just saying things that were partially true -- "I just want to listen to different kinds of music. I just want to." Of course, I ended up explaining the situation at some point and got the response I expected, "What? Josh, you shouldn't let other people influence the decisions that you make like that!"

"I know mom, I know..."

And I just couldn't find a way to explain why I tried to justify listening to a wider range of music. I really tried to find the silverlining in it by making it a way to just learn about more styles of music. And so, my musical range to this day is so wide, it's all over the map. But what started it all was essentially a negative moment that basically influenced me to learn about other styles of music.

It obviously isn't good that I let it influence me like that because, well, I should be making my own decisions about that, I know. But, overall, I'm glad that I have a wide taste in music.


Anyways, in my mind, I think this is a good example of Te HA.

[jessica129]

Do ISTps doubt whether they made the right judgements about people..? For example, do they ever reconsider someone after deciding whether a person is good or bad -- is the decision set-in-stone or does it just take time for them to reach a new understanding..?

Any ISTp perspectives on this will be greatly appreciated.

I usually always accurately judge a persons character but if I were wrong, I would see no reason to hold onto my initial judgement...that would be pointless. I've never cut someone off completely as I believe people change and deserve second chances.

[meatburger]

I usually always accurately judge a persons character but if I were wrong, I would see no reason to hold onto my initial judgement...that would be pointless. I've never cut someone off completely as I believe people change and deserve second chances.

Yeah thats what ive noticed with ISTps too!

@Tereg. I can relate to that story a lot. Its often when i realise to myself i have no idea what im talking about (especially when ive made a tool out of myself), that i go on my hunt. I dont think i explained the HA perfectly tho as i went off on tangents lol.

I must admit though by year 7 i was right into pop music hehe. Great song

[force my hand]

Do ISTps doubt whether they made the right judgements about people..? For example, do they ever reconsider someone after deciding whether a person is good or bad -- is the decision set-in-stone or does it just take time for them to reach a new understanding..?

Any ISTp perspectives on this will be greatly appreciated.

I wonder if I've made the right judgement all the time - but it usually stops there. I don't identify with blacklisting someone and holding a grudge - it's more along the lines of, "well, they don't appear to like me, so I'm not going to go out of my way to acknowledge them." It's a dynamic process - if they come up to me and are giving positive signals, then I reevaluate and set a new status. If they slam or snub me, then it changes again for whatever period of time.

I don't hold grudges, but I do ignore people as befits the situation.

[tereg]

The funny thing i sometimes feel though is pivotal moments like that aren't always as pivotal as they seem. Like you would have started listening to popular music at some point anyway. And my Music taste is also all over the map too, i think you were just beginning your ENFpness

I'm sorry I caught this before you edited it out, but I think it's very true. I actually thought about this years later and I did think that eventually I would have moved to different genres of music.

I still have issues with forming thoughts "properly" in my head. It's so frustrating.

I must admit though by year 7 i was right into pop music hehe.

You know it's interesting because, well, I mentioned that I had very little MTV knowledge at that point. Well, what little I did have came at an even younger age. I basically would watch MTV just to see if I could catch two particular music videos that captivated me.

Peter Gabriel - Sledgehammer
George Harrison - Got My Mind Set on You

And in 3rd grade I had some exposure to top 40 hits when I'd go to the roller rink. Songs that stuck out to me (that would prompt me to go out and skate to them when it played):

Paula Abdul - Straight Up
Ray Parker Jr. - Ghostbusters
Bobby Brown - On Our Own (lolol)

There were some others that "hit" me that I can't think of at the moment. If the songs play where I work I immediately think "roller rink song". Actually those memories kinda suck because around the time when I went less and less, I basically didn't skate much at all, I just kinda sat around the tables and watched the arcade games and such... that's right... watched arcade games.

And of course, my classmates brough in like Pearl Jam/Nirvanna/Aerosmith stuff when we were allowed to listen to music in class near the end of the year (the year before).

So, before the... incident... I had a vague idea of the songs that were being played. Even "The Sign", I had heard it before, but like maybe once or twice.


Also noteworthy, the first two CDs I ever owned (which happened after the incident) -- I bought two at the same time:

The Sign - Ace of Base
August and Everything After - Counting Crows

[Park]

Do ISTps doubt whether they made the right judgements about people..? For example, do they ever reconsider someone after deciding whether a person is good or bad -- is the decision set-in-stone or does it just take time for them to reach a new understanding..?

It usually takes time... but the only thing that can change my mind is that particular person's behavior, not what others say or think about him or her. And as others already said I don't usually hold grudges or really "judge" anyone unless of course they have done something terrible to me or keep on doing something I dislike or consider to be wrong.

It's good to note that I often (not always thou) make wrong evaluations and assumptions about people based on my first impressions and later on I get very surprised when their behavior totally contradicts what I initially thought of them. But that's usually only before I get to know someone a little better.

[meatburger]

I'm sorry I caught this before you edited it out, but I think it's very true.

Wow u did! Haha no worries, im just glad you weren't offended by it. Ive been caught before my edits like 3 times today already! I edited because i thought to myself "who am i to tell him whether his own moment is pivotal or not". lol

I used to go rollerskating too! First CD i ever bought was Bonjovi Crossroads. I think i got the idea from a SLI dude that moved away
I think i loved every single song on that album. A bloody classic.

[Park]

Ok, I pretty much hold the same sentiments as some others in this thread with regards to dedicating a good amount of time researching some topic or idea that suddenly pops into my head.

I do the same. I don't think it's necessarily related to Te HA.

[JuJu]

I wonder if I've made the right judgement all the time - but it usually stops there. I don't identify with blacklisting someone and holding a grudge - it's more along the lines of, "well, they don't appear to like me, so I'm not going to go out of my way to acknowledge them." It's a dynamic process - if they come up to me and are giving positive signals, then I reevaluate and set a new status. If they slam or snub me, then it changes again for whatever period of time.

I don't hold grudges, but I do ignore people as befits the situation.

Thanks for the response, force my hand, and everyone else. It helps my understanding a lot.

I asked b/c with ISTps, I've noticed that after some harsh words are said, it sometimes takes awhile before they're willing to re-engage... Usually, as you said, someone will come up to them, start giving some positive signals, and then slowly everyone will become friends again.

It's different for me as an ENFp... Yelling matches and stuff like that will flare up--I expect them as par for the course w/people--and usually everyone's forgiven in almost no time... Even if some really stupid stuff is said, it doesn't effect me much--I expect people to be emotional, so I don't bear a grudge. Does that make sense?

(Granted, this might have more to do w/growing up in a family that's half-Italian where a lot of ppl are pretty, uh, fiery. hehe)

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I also find that i have an attrocious memory. I tend to learn things really fast but forget them even faster. So when someone asks me how many billion years has the earth been around for, i will always kick myself for not knowing. (just looked it up 4.58 billion years)

"to love": more inclined to focus on their inner feelings with regard to other individuals than worry about external emotional atmospheres, especially where other people whom they know less are involved. Example: the person who's very warm and friendly to very close individuals, but who can appear cold, "unfriendly" and "too reserved" in a larger group of people he doesn't know well.

That's a very good example.

Fi hidden agenda: an inclination to overestimate their ability to evaluate other people's character. The ISTp is vulnerable to falling in the trap of thinking that he's sure that a friend of his is a good guy, even as other friends see that the friend is an asshole, and the ISTp getting angry with his friends for trying to warn him.

Both of these apply to me, and yet, I am ENFp. Is that simply my creative function talking?

ENFps really like knowing stuff like this? Cuz I gotta buncha crap stored in here that could be let out on someone

Yes, but we have to be interested first.

[xyz]

right-o

[Creepy-Cyclops]

That's a very good example.

Fi hidden agenda: an inclination to overestimate their ability to evaluate other people's character. The ISTp is vulnerable to falling in the trap of thinking that he's sure that a friend of his is a good guy, even as other friends see that the friend is an asshole, and the ISTp getting angry with his friends for trying to warn him.

Yep, seeing the best in some folk, thought of this myself as some sort of hoping to create Fi setting. Guess it's good to see the best in people but sometimes it's not, esp when they eventually suprise you in a not-so-good-way! Need an ENFp to keep me right on this one..come on guys, y'all move to Scotland now?!

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Yep, seeing the best in some folk, thought of this myself as some sort of hoping to create Fi setting. Guess it's good to see the best in people but sometimes it's not, esp when they eventually suprise you in a not-so-good-way! Need an ENFp to keep me right on this one..come on guys, y'all move to Scotland now?!

I think I'm one of the rare ENFps who can't see a bad character if it was dangled in front of her face. Please tell me there are perceptive ISTps out there. You live in Scotland?!

[JuJu]

I think I'm one of the rare ENFps who can't see a bad character if it was dangled in front of her face. Please tell me there are perceptive ISTps out there. You live in Scotland?!

Wow, really?! If I have one talent--and I probably do have one, hehe--it's being able to detect idosynchasies in peoples' characters... For example, if someone has dubious motives, is in a 'bad place,' or is operating in a way that will eventually bring on negativity--or vice versa--I know quickly.

It's giving me advantages in situations now... But when I was younger, I didn't trust it so much... Over time, it proved to be very accurate.

And dude--I want to go to Scotland! (Probably not what yer lookin for I'll bet, haha!) I've got a friend at St. Andrews. She loves it there... But she's asking me to bring her some NyQuil--says they don't sell it over there.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Wow, really?! If I have one talent--and I probably do have just one, hehe--it's being able to detect idosynchasies in peoples' characters... For example, if someone has dubious motives, is in a 'bad place,' or is operating in a way that will eventually bring on negativity--or vice versa--I know very quickly.

It's giving me advantages in situations now... But when I was younger, I didn't trust this skill so much... Over time, it proved to be very accurate.

And dude--I want to go to Scotland! (Probably not what yer lookin for I'll bet, haha!) I've got a friend at St. Andrews. She loves it there... But she's asking me to bring her some NyQuil--says they don't sell it over there.

I can spot some inconsistencies, problems, etc. Sometimes more so in hindsight. *shrugs* My mother's very perceptive, too, and she's ExFP in MBTT/Keirsey.

I have no problem with Scotland. I just thought all this time that he was a Brit.

[tereg]

I think I'm one of the rare ENFps who can't see a bad character if it was dangled in front of her face.

Oh, no no. I have this problem as well. It usually takes someone blatently pointing it out to me for me to see it.

Like you, I can spot some inconsistencies and stuff but I think many times I can't put all of the pieces together.

[tiny_dancer]

haha - yeah, I have great a*hole radar. Half an hour, sometimes the first sentence is enough to tell me if someone is a wacko. Recently had a situation where my boss literally hired a con man. The minute the guy said hi to me I had an allergic reaction... and he has since proved me right. Ripped my boss off for $4500, and has sent harrassing e-mails and all kinds of crazy stuff ever since. It's a long story. I have no idea how my boss actually thought this guy was sane.

[HitmanISTP]

x

[HitmanISTP]

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[HitmanISTP]

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[Slacker]

I didn't know you felt that way. Sorry. I would definitely tell your husband this.

How do you think I feel? And what should I tell my husband?

[Rubicon]

How do you think I feel? And what should I tell my husband?

I think he meant 'you' as in ENFps - not you specifically.

[Slacker]

I think he meant 'you' as in ENFps - not you specifically.

Well how does he think we feel? And what should we tell our husbands?

[Rubicon]

Well how does he think we feel? And what should we tell our husbands?

Don't ask me

[emeye]

I have no problem with Scotland. I just thought all this time that he was a Brit.

You fail at geography.
Twice.
Glasgow (from his location) is in Scotland, and he is British (Scotland is on the Great Britain isle.)

One wonders where are the tax dollars intended for education actually going.

[msq]

Well, from my own experience, some Scottish folk get upset when you call them British. You might get a Glesga Kiss for that

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Yeah, really everyone is right in a way here. Scotland is a seperate country which is part of the U.K.

@JuJu, St. Andrews is a-really nice place. Worked for the golf course few years back when tournament was on.

@msq haha haven't heard that one for a while

[emeye]

Well, from my own experience, some Scottish folk get upset when you call them British. You might get a Glesga Kiss for that

Well, this is only to prove that being technically correct is still going to get you killed. Or me, in this particular case

Edit: at least, I did not call you guys English

[iAnnAu]

I wonder if I've made the right judgement all the time - but it usually stops there. I don't identify with blacklisting someone and holding a grudge - it's more along the lines of, "well, they don't appear to like me, so I'm not going to go out of my way to acknowledge them." It's a dynamic process - if they come up to me and are giving positive signals, then I reevaluate and set a new status. If they slam or snub me, then it changes again for whatever period of time.

I don't hold grudges, but I do ignore people as befits the situation.

+1
I do not trust first impressions, or fifth ones. I'll still act at ease around a new person; just won't come to a clear internal judgement of 'em 'til later.
And I can't hold grudges. It's too much work. However, since it's usually also work to continue to interact with that person, I usually quietly slip off their radar. If they continue to do the maintenance of the relationship, then I have to figure out whether I'm gonna give them another chance (not *just* second, some people in my life are on their fourth or so) or if it's worth having to actively avoid them.

[Creepy-male]

Alright, question.

EPs will always have a dynamic, rational HA. The HA is decidedly rigid, so doesn't this create a bit of a contradiction?

My original question was about Te in IEEs, so I guess I should ask: "What are some typical symptoms of Te HA in IEEs?"

[anndelise]

The way I see it is that the XeFi does a lot of exploring of the world around them. It could be physical exploring of the world, gaining experiences of how things work or how the world works, or even mental explorations of the world, gaining ideas about how things and the world works.

The SeFi is more likely to go for actual experiences, and may often find themselves in odd situations. They also have a tendency to retain details from the experience such that when they are talking about it, they will go into painstaking details such as what someone wore, looked like, what the item was and what it did, etc. Often they'll ask questions about something that they are experiencing or have experienced, picking up on the terminology used in describing it. Once they are given specific terms for describing something, they tend to insist on sticking with that term, and have difficulty when someone uses different terms to refer to the same thing. (Note: this is most common in young SeFi who can get very rigid in the terms used….but learn to adapt to those close to them as they gain more experiences of people using different terms for the same thing.)

The NeFi is more likely to go for indirect experiences, including such things as vicariously living through someone else. By this I mean that they will ask a lot of questions of a person, the person's life, the person's interests, the person's experiences….and pick up ideas about the world as seen through this person's eyes. They'll also often utilize books and stories to gain these indirect experiences. When they do have actual personal experiences with something, the memory tends to lose much of the detail and refers itself to the actions taken, emotions felt at the time, and a general overview of the experience is remembered. If any details are remembered, it's usually after first referring to the actions/emotions/overview of the experience. Because the NeFi tends to forget the details, they often have a difficult describing their perceptions of the indirect/direct experience, and will often attempt to give an overview or summary of it.

When both types attempt to create something, or try to get something to work for them, they each tend to lose sight of some of the things that might be involved or need to be included to get the thing to work, or to fully create it. Often these are simple things like forgetting to connect a wire, or not remembering to flip a switch, etc. In the case of the SeFi, it's usually because they are so caught up in the actual experiencing that they're not anticipating other things needed. In the case of the NeFi, it's usually because they are so caught up in the mental experience, that they overlook the physical aspects needed.

SeFi respond well to someone else helping them see the consequences of an action as the SeFi is doing the action, allowing the SeFi to alter their course while they are in motion/experiencing, (kind of like an assistant driver) but they don't respond well to someone telling them the consequences BEFORE they take action…in a way it's seen as preventing them from the freedom of exploration. The other option is to let someone else pick up the pieces or deal with the fall-out after the fact.

NeFi respond well to someone else asking them questions that bring the physical things overlooked to the NeFi's attention. Preferably someone else will cover these aspects. But during the idea stage of a 'plan', the NeFi benefits from being reminded of the real world aspects that they need to keep in mind, or the steps that they need to take in order to achieve that 'goal'. Without this help, the NeFi is left in a state of bewilderment as to what their next step should be, or how to actually go about the creation. There's so many possibilities, so many ways to go, so many things to do, how to choose which one? This is where an SiTe can be of benefit to the NeFi, as the NeFi will initiate the course of action, but when they reach a point of indecisiveness of which direction to take, the SiTe is able to make the decision for them, wherein the NeFi will then initiate action in that direction, thus becoming a self-feeding process between the two.