"nostalgia" split from "The Lion King" thread

[Aleksei]

From what I saw in our PMs, your reasoning for their types are based on poor knowledge of the story itself

I re-watched the movie yesterday, which is why for example, I re-typed Mufasa ESI and Scar IEI (Scar spends half the damn movie sitting on his ass). I am not budging on Simba's type, and see no reasonable justification for typing him anything but EIE.

a miserably stereotyped understanding of socionics

I rely entirely on what Socionics IM elements are defined by the creators of Socionics as being. It's not my fault that you think all human behavior is universal...

[Galen]

I rely entirely on what Socionics IM elements are defined by the creators of Socionics as being.

Any sources you'd like to note?

It's not my fault that you think all human behavior is universal...

I don't see why it's not, and I don't see why you think it's not. The human brain is a very malleable thing: given the circumstance (childhood experiences, religious beliefs, culture, etc), any type should be capable of doing anything.

[Aleksei]

Any sources you'd like to note?

Augusta, the creator of Socionics. I am curious, where does your understanding of Socionics elements arise, if you consider everything malleable? Such radical malleability is, in fact, inconsistent with the original Socionics model - Model A, which classical Socionics uses.

I don't see why it's not, and I don't see why you think it's not. The human brain is a very malleable thing: given the circumstance (childhood experiences, religious beliefs, culture, etc), any type should be capable of doing anything.

The science of genetics has disproven that humans are born tabula rasa, and proves that some determinants of behavior like intelligence are to some degree genetic in nature.

[Galen]

There's too much to argue here so I'll stick with the main points.

I already argued at length against this typing, and I only have one thing to add to it: your earlier argument about Hakuna Matata and relaxation is bullshit. Hakuna Matata has nothing to do with relaxation -- it is simply not giving a fuck, which EIEs can easily do.

Which anybody can do. I ask any and all members of this forum to raise their hands if they have not given a fuck about something at one point in your lives.

Also I don't know what movie you're watching, but the Timon and Pumbaa world seems pretty damn relaxed: I imagine anybody would relax were they in a position of "no worries for the rest of your days".

The movie shows exactly one instance of Simba relaxing, which happend after he ate, and during which he did not simply enjoy the moment as an valuing type would in such a situation.

You're looking at the way small details and fail to look at the big picture of the film. He's pretty relaxed at the beginning of the film, before the part where Mufasa died. He in Hakuna Matata world his life is nothing but rest and relaxation. All other parts are just him filled with anxst or regret, so of course he won't be relaxed then.

Instead he looked up at the stars and felt nostalgia (which is an theme -- evocative memories are related to Ni).

How are you so uninformed of what it means to be a human? All people are capable of remembering things, this is not type related in the least. If you have a brain and some semblance of emotion, you can have evocative memories.

Furthermore, Simba wasn't simply "feeling nostalic," he was miserably guilty about what he believes he's done to his father.

On Enneagram: Mufasa appears unconcerned with control and independence, and is merely concerned with taking care of his kingdom, which is a 2 or a 1 motivation.

I still don't see how this isn't an 8 motivation.

He is further largely unafraid of confrontation when it is necessary, which rules out wing-9. 8w9s are never outwardly confrontational, but instead manipulate people into doing what they want.

wtf yes they can. My dad is an 8w9 and he has no problem with confrontation in the 8 sense of the word. Regardless of the wing, that style of confrontation is such an E8 way to be.

Scar should be one of the easiest characters there to Enneatype. Be Prepared is basically about his core motivation:

Bolded: E3 motivation. Scar feels frustrated that he plays second fiddle to Mufasa, and thus desires to depose him and be seen in all his glory as ruler. I initially believed he was 8w7, but he wants to be seen as successful, which is 3 in nature.

Hmm, this makes sense.

Yes. Glad you could get one type right at least...

Okay seriously, stop being so condescending. It's really hard to have a serious conversation with you when you're being this childish.


Z

azu is a stuffy fucking piece of shit, and every Fe-valuer in the movie (and even non-Fe valuers) had him as butt monkey for that precise reason. Zazu is an LSE-Ti.

Fe doesn't mean "not being stuffy or uptight," again you're delving into stereotypes.

[Aleksei]

Which anybody can do. I ask any and all members of this forum to raise their hands if they have not given a fuck about something at one point in your lives.

My point precisely, thank you for agreeing with me. He was not looking for relaxation, he was merely looking for escape. And he found it. Ergo, Hakuna Matata is not type-related, and not a valid argument towards him being IEE.

Also I don't know what movie you're watching, but the Timon and Pumbaa world seems pretty damn relaxed: I imagine anybody would relax were they in a position of "no worries for the rest of your days".

That's Timon and Pumbaa. Both Si-valuing, and in fact both Si-subtype. We're talking about Simba here.

You're looking at the way small details and fail to look at the big picture of the film. He's pretty relaxed at the beginning of the film, before the part where Mufasa died. He in Hakuna Matata world his life is nothing but rest and relaxation. All other parts are just him filled with anxst or regret, so of course he won't be relaxed then.

Simba was most definitely not relaxed. Simba's attitude as a kid: WOOHOO! I'M GONNA BE KING, AND ZAZU WILL BE MY BITCH! LET'S GO RUSH INTO THE ELEPHANT GRAVEYARD, NALA!

That is not relaxation. That is being high on cocaine.

How are you so uninformed of what it means to be a human? All people are capable of remembering things, this is not type related in the least. If you have a brain and some semblance of emotion, you can have evocative memories.

Furthermore, Simba wasn't simply "feeling nostalic," he was miserably guilty about what he believes he's done to his father.

Ni:

is associated with memory, uncertainty, state of mind, understanding trends or ongoing processes, incommunicability of subjective mental images, and a state of inertia. If types are likely to branch out and explore all possible concepts to find something interesting, types are likely to replay the conceptual associations that they have already made in their head. They may mentally replay things that have happened from their past or especially focus on the importance of concepts in memory, especially those relating to their personal history.

Naturally all people have memory, and indeed all people have somewhere in their psyche, but some people prefer it -- and/or are more adept at it -- more than others. hence types are differentiated. An valuing type, racked with guilt and looking to escape it all as he was, would simply block the pain out and enjoy the moment, as Pumbaa and Timon were doing. He couldn't.

I still don't see how this isn't an 8 motivation.

wtf yes they can. My dad is an 8w9 and he has no problem with confrontation in the 8 sense of the word. Regardless of the wing, that style of confrontation is such an E8 way to be.

Now who's ascribing nonexistent stereotypes to a type? Confrontation is not an exclusively 8 phenomenon, even if 8 is the most confrontational of all types. 8 is defined, nothing more and nothing less, by a desire to not be controlled. Mufasa did not seem to display such a desire, and did on the other hand gush forth about his perfect, beautiful kingdom.

Actually you know what I think he's a 1w2.

Fe doesn't mean "not being stuffy or uptight," again you're delving into stereotypes.

Pray tell then, what is Fe?

That's all a nice idea, but problems often arise in how or what behaviors get interpreted as type-relevant. I mean, take one of Aleksei's points about Scar being IEI "because he sits on his ass so much." Come on lol.

relaxed
go-with-the-flow
finds it easy to spend long periods of time in no activity, or at very low levels of energy
movements are flexible, unhurried
little inclination towards fidgetiness when having to remain inactive for longer periods
IPs are both dynamic and irrational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. An IP is soothed by this, seeing reality through his leading function. This leads to a relaxed inclination to take things as they come and adapt to them.
As introverts, IPs tend to be relaxed and somewhat passive about initiating relationships with other people, mostly assuming that others will take the initiative.

proactive
restless
difficult to relax unless tired
walk tends to be quick-paced and "purposeful", as well as stiff
"calmly energetic" with few intense variations in the level of energy during the day
inclined to fidget when forced to remain inactive for long periods
EJs are both dynamic and rational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. At the same time, an EJ has his own views of what reality "should" be. This inclines him to be quick to take action, normally using his leading function, in order to make sure things will remain, or become, as they should be, before change can get too far.
As extroverts, EJs tend to feel that it is up to them to initiate contacts with other people, whether in the context of establishing or maintaining a relationship. They will not necessarily act on that, though, and sometimes wish others would take over this role.

Scar:




now, which of those descriptions does this resemble?

Though mind, this is the single typing I care about least. I actually want Scar to be my type, because Scar is fucking awesome.

[Aleksei]

As I said, if Mufasa is not a 2 or a 1, he is the healthiest 8w7 character ever to be created.

He's probably a 1, though. He seems, as I said already, unconcerned with maintaining his own independence, and quite concerned with maintaining the delicate balance of the ecosystem of the pride -- with perfection.

Memory and nostalgia have absolutely nothing to do with IEs.

Augusta obviously disagrees. I agree with Augusta, who, um... created Socionics and is thus trustworthy about what the model entails.

[Aleksei]

The link you posted explicitly correlates Ni with time perception. It references "roots in the past," And the correlation between events that follow each-other - so it'd easily perceive the connection between the past and the present. Which Simba was doing in that scene, perceiving how he lived then versus how he lived now.

And, no, 8w7. There is nothing 9-ish about his behavior, at all.

[Galen]

My point precisely, thank you for agreeing with me. He was not looking for relaxation, he was merely looking for escape. And he found it. Ergo, Hakuna Matata is not type-related, and not a valid argument towards him being IEE.

Wait what?

Simba was most definitely not relaxed. Simba's attitude as a kid: WOOHOO! I'M GONNA BE KING, AND ZAZU WILL BE MY BITCH! LET'S GO RUSH INTO THE ELEPHANT GRAVEYARD, NALA!

That is not relaxation. That is being high on cocaine.

That is called "being a kid" and "being an extrovert." Physical relaxation and emotional relaxation are two very different things, I can't tell which one you're talking about.

Ni:

lol wtf that's one of the worse descriptions of Ni I've ever read.

Naturally all people have memory, and indeed all people have somewhere in their psyche, but some people prefer it -- and/or are more adept at it -- more than others. hence types are differentiated. An valuing type, racked with guilt and looking to escape it all as he was, would simply block the pain out and enjoy the moment, as Pumbaa and Timon were doing. He couldn't.

/ valuers aren't repressive by nature. That's a difference of personality and not type. Again, please brush up what it means to be a normal human being.

Now who's ascribing nonexistent stereotypes to a type? Confrontation is not an exclusively 8 phenomenon, even if 8 is the most confrontational of all types. 8 is defined, nothing more and nothing less, by a desire to not be controlled. Mufasa did not seem to display such a desire, and did on the other hand gush forth about his perfect, beautiful kingdom.

He never "expressed" that desire because he never felt that anything was really threatening it.

Pray tell then, what is Fe?

An understanding of things in the world as containing discrete, internal, subjective characteristics that are constantly changing and in flux.

Augusta obviously disagrees. I agree with Augusta.

When did Augusta suggest anything like that?

[Aleksei]

Wait what?

The exchange:

You (on the wall debate): Simba lived by Hakuna Matata -- the very embodiment of physical relaxation.
Me: Hakuna Matata has nothing to do with relaxation and everything to do with not giving a fuck, which is not related to Si.
You: HAH! Not giving a fuck is not type related.
Me: ...yeah that's what I just said.

That is called "being a kid" and "being an extrovert." Physical relaxation and emotional relaxation are two very different things, I can't tell which one you're talking about.

Physical. Simba is a little petard.

lol wtf that's one of the worse descriptions of Ni I've ever read.

Then let's try the one Ashton linked on for size. Ni is time intuition -- it is thought processing intimately related to the passage of time, and is thus linked to a strengthened focus on foresight and memory. In a quiet moment of contemplation, Simba's memories came back connected to something his dad told him as a kid (pulling away from the motivation of merely enjoying the sensation of lying there under the stars).

/ valuers aren't repressive by nature. That's a difference of personality and not type.

Personality defines type.

An understanding of things in the world as containing discrete, internal, subjective characteristics that are constantly changing and in flux.

Now in English.

When did Augusta suggest anything like that?

She sort of said it right where Ashton linked...

[Galen]

The exchange:

You (on the wall debate): Simba lived by Hakuna Matata -- the very embodiment of physical relaxation.
Me: Hakuna Matata has nothing to do with relaxation and everything to do with not giving a fuck, which is not related to Si.
You: HAH! Not giving a fuck is not type related.
Me: ...yeah that's what I just said.

I never claimed that Hakuna Matata was about not giving a fuck; that's what you said. I don't hold what you say about Hakuna Matata to be true, so it's not a contradiction as far as I'm concerned.

Physical. Simba is a little petard.

An explosive device used to break down a gate or wall?
I still don't see how this is related to anything other than extroversion.

Then let's try the one Ashton linked on for size. Ni is time intuition -- it is thought processing intimately related to the passage of time, and is thus linked to a strengthened focus on foresight and memory. In a quiet moment of contemplation, Simba's memories came back connected to something his dad told him as a kid (pulling away from the motivation of merely enjoying the sensation of lying there under the stars).

It's linked to an style of foresight and memory, not just foresight and memory in general.

Personality defines type.

Now in English.

That link Ashton posted seems to do the job pretty well.

She sort of said it right where Ashton linked...

Neither the words "memory" nor "nostalgia" appear anywhere in that link, in reference to any IE.

[Aleksei]

That isn't what the link said, you're just adulterating it with your own bullshit.

How am I adulterating it? It very explicitly relates Ni to passage of time and correlating past and present. It says that. If Ni is correlated with perception of time past, as the site says, then an Ni-ego will certainly focus more on that, given their focus on Ni.

[Galen]

How am I adulterating it? It very explicitly relates Ni to passage of time and correlating past and present. It says that. If Ni is correlated with perception of time past, as the site says, then an Ni-ego will certainly focus more on that, given their focus on Ni.

Relating to something doesn't mean being an exact definition. That's like saying the number of cars you own is the same as yearly income simply due to them being "related to each other."

[Aleksei]

Relating to something doesn't mean being an exact definition. That's like saying red is the same as green because they're both colors.

The link explicitly states that time perception is Ni. Did you actually read it?

[Galen]

The link explicitly states that time perception is Ni. Did you actually read it?

It doesn't state that Ni is all perception of time in general; any type is capable of this to some degree. Rather, Ni is a specific kind of time perception, one in which the passage of time is felt on a very personal and very subjective level.

[Aleksei]

...where does it state this?

[Galen]

...where does it state this?

Here:

This perceptual element provides information about the sequence of events and people's deeds, about their cause and effect relationship, and about participants' attitudes towards this — that is, about people's feelings that these relationships engender.

Such an individual perceives information from without as feelings about the future, past, and present.

Also I would request that this thread be split off from where it stops talking about Lion King.