This pretty much. SLEs are by rule assertive, direct and dominant, but not actually psychotic.Originally Posted by octopuslove
This pretty much. SLEs are by rule assertive, direct and dominant, but not actually psychotic.
What do these signs mean—,
, etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason,
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function(extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
The only people who can ever get me to fight out of rage are the people I'm really close to, because they are the only ones around whom I let my gaurd down enough for such a strong emotional reaction to occur. No one I'm not close with will ever be able to get me to throw a punch no matter how pissed they make me. If some one I don't know gets me to that point at most I'll just wrestle them to the ground and force them to submit. That way there is no long term damage, no bruises or marks as assault evidence, and they still leave imascuelated. Which is really the point of any fight anyway. Or I'll just take a deep breath, ignore my anger, and walk away.
I'm paying for school, I can't afford the bill that comes with assault no matter how pissed I get.
Last edited by JWC3; 06-16-2011 at 09:12 PM.
Easy Day
What JWC3 said, more or less.
I think the premise that assertiveness to this extent goes hand in hand with Beta Se base (or creative) is wrong. I'm very close to two SLEs and know a few others (I think) pretty well, and they are not highly reactionary with people they don't know, although they may come across as forceful in terms of how direct they are ... at times. (LSIs even less so, but I'm going to focus on SLE here.)
In fact, these people do what JWC described, they measure out the pros and cons of their actions in their minds along very practical lines, in terms of overall gain and loss. "Not worth it" is a common conclusion. Watch and wait, long-term strategies for dealing with undesired situations, not giving someone the satisfaction of getting a rise out of them ... I've seen these things in SLEs.
Regarding the specific numbered questions stray asked, just no. I have not known a single Beta ST so idiotic as to get themselves into those kinds of criminal messes, so imo if there are some Beta STs out there who've done so, it's more to do with environment: socioeconomic status, family of origin, and the like.
Since people love it so much when I refer to my boyfriend ... he is aware that he may seem a lot more aggressive than he actually is and can articulate that gap between how he's perceived and the actions he's likely to take. He has a knack for saying exactly what he is thinking--because he chooses to--and what others may be thinking but don't dare to say. He also doesn't take shit lying down and will go after his own interests assertively. But in these instances, he considers the effect on his own standing.
He can point out that his younger brother (not Beta ST, not sure of type) is way more impulsive than himself and has gotten into serious trouble (brawls) where he will check himself and consider things cautiously--he is more likely to use strong yet reasonable words, instinctively pursue cover-own-ass approaches like befriending the friend/s of a potential "enemy," keep careful documentation of everything ever done and said by any adversary, take matters into the legal arena, and provoke someone in order to get them to show their own weakness and aggression. He takes great satisfaction in letting someone be their own undoing, but you won't see him out of control. And like JWC said, he's much more apt to openly quarrel with the people he loves and trusts than with people outside his circle.
Some of that may go with E8, btw, which he seems to be > E7. Strong preoccupation with justice.
Last edited by golden; 06-16-2011 at 10:01 PM.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
IEI-Fe 4w3
No we don't. Augusta defined Se as naturally willful, dominant, volitional and direct. Therefore Se is naturally willful, dominant, volitional and direct. If she had defined Se as shy and eccentric it'd be shy and eccentric. If she had defined it as having a propensity to stand on one's head that's what it would be. That's how type fucking works.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
But within the context of the OP, how does it follow from being willful, dominant, volitional, and direct that a person with those qualities will lose self-control to such an extent that they end up jailed and/or ruining their own reputations irrevocably? Ime, the opposite is more likely.
An Se ego getting entangled in a lot of ass-showing, self-ruining BS scrapes, well, just haven't seen it.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
There's nothing in there exclusionary of that -- in fact, the strong directness of Se-leading types combined with their fundamental weakness in understanding others' sensibilities (Fi-PoLR) leaves them vulnerable to social faux pas and excessive aggression. As I mentioned, it isn't the rule for SLEs to be psychotic, but unhealthy ones very well can be.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
To be fair, I've always had friends and family members who were always more productively "ST", and cool/grounded what-have-you, and they sound more like your bf or JWC. I was the sensitive/goofy kid, who flipped out a bit for awhile, and they would always make it a point to tell me I was cocky or to "count to 10" and relax.
As for overrated Se, I already pointed this to Ashton last night, but I might as well post it here. It's MBTI related, so take it with a grain of salt if you want, but it doesn't seem to be a bad description on the whole spectrum of Se. And even here, it sounds like the ESps are controlled about it.
http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...rted_Sensation
As a dominant function, Se leads ESPs to live a life of fun and pleasure, enjoying the now. From an unmitigated Se perspective, what there is to do in life is get attention and make a visible impact in the world: create a spectacle, be popular and well-liked, enjoy wine, women, and song, go along with the crowd (that's where the action is), dress fashionably, see and be seen, eat at the hippest restaurants, and generally "have a good time". If it looks good, if it feels good, what else matters? They cultivate a public image to fit what is attractive according to the currently prevailing standards of their culture (see Orientation by Pop Culture), and they merrily shift along with shifting fashions. They learn what "plays", and they play to that. They don't worry about internal contradictions, or continuity of present behavior with past traditions, or long-term consequences. They do what gets an immediate effect right now, of a sort that requires no explanation. What you do from an Se perspective is plain to everyone. From an Se perspective, anything complicated is mere speculation. What's true is what works now. Whether it works tomorrow is a matter for tomorrow. They negotiate for every physical pleasure they can possibly get, and they negotiate hard. They develop a gut sense for reading what a person really wants, and what a person really fears, and they work that for all it's worth.
As a secondary function, Se leads ISPs to make "what plays" into the object of their thoughts. The world of appearance and spectacle provides them with a subject matter to analyze and comment on from an outside perspective, especially to point out (from the sidelines) how people are attempting to be cool but failing, ha ha. ISPs often see themselves as the true leading edge of cool, hipper than hip, into what becomes popular before it becomes popular. As a path of further development and expansion of consciousness, Se shows ISPs how to "go with the flow", to "accept" what is, to "be present" to what is happening right now, recognizing that they can't control it. Incorporating an Se way of orienting themselves, they find a way for their dominant moral perspective to bear fruit in any circumstances they find themselves in. Their dominant function has led them to cultivate a way of being, or state of grace, that feels possible only in a private space, where public perception is not a factor (e.g. Michael Jackson's Never-Never Land Ranch). Se tunes them in to public perception in a way that enables them to fully be themselves wherever they are, freely giving their gifts to all comers, and unconditionally accepting the results.
As a tertiary function, Se often leads ENJs to maintain a certain show of force. If reason won't persuade you to play along sensibly, maybe that rifle on my wall will. I won't say anything explicit, but you know as well as I do that we don't want to go there. The unstated threat need not be violent, of course. It might just be to fire you. There's always something in the ENJ's bargaining position held in reserve, which would really pinch if he used it, and you know at a gut level that he wouldn't hesitate to use it if you got out of line. Some ENJs depend heavily on a Douglas Macarthur-like sense of theatrics and spectacle to keep the masses bedazzled while they do what they think needs doing. Sometimes tertiary Se leads ENJs to practice a peculiar philosophy of "honesty": the sort where if you feel like punching someone in the face, you view it as "dishonest" to refrain from doing so--a philosophy of giving vent to whatever your animal nature comes up with at the moment, and having the "courage" to deal with the consequences without anticipating them. Mild forms include yelling louder than someone to win an argument, or demonstrating by your physical demeanor that you are viscerally more committed to something than an opponent. From the Se perspective, "in a conflict, the more committed party always wins." (An Ni perspective would lead you to search for a third way, one that dissolves the conflict rather than winning it.)
As an inferior function, Se often leads INJs in either (or both) of two directions: to shun everything of a bodily nature as corrupt and animal (e.g. Immanuel Kant), or to crave "letting loose" and table-dancing or delivering some serious violence. In the grip of the inferior function, they try to make others feel weak by displays of physical power (or trying to get others to compare themselves with physically powerful people), but usually end up only making themselves feel like helpless bugs. "See how POWERFUL I am? See my ANIMAL MAGNETISM?" Some get into guns or karate, taking an off-kilter delight in fantasies of getting into a confrontation with someone and surprising the hell out of them with the damage they can do (see Taxi Driver). Some idolize jazz musicians as people who are completely in touch with their animal selves, able to "let go". Some join academic cliques where the object is to make other people feel unpopular by snubbing them for not being up on the latest intellectual fashions--a sort of faux popularity contest, where the wider social standards are reversed and the most unintelligible gibberish gets the most attention. Some use esoteric jazz or modern art to make a twisted marriage of Ni and Se: "It might sound like an incoherent mish-mash of notes to you, but that only shows that you lack the finer discernment of the really cool people." A different way, perhaps the genuine reunification with the inferior function, is to find an unconditional pleasure in "the now" and a peaceful, live-and-let-live philosophy--enjoying each moment, "being present" no matter what comes.
Less dramatic, more recreational (and more common) forms of tertiary and inferior Se include athletics and engaging in physically dangerous activities, like auto racing and bungee jumping--providing the participants visceral proof that they have power over the physical world. Or simply enjoying these activities in a pure way, for the thrills they offer, no differently than an SP.
Naturally, you can see plenty of dominant-style Se in ISPs, secondary-style in ESPs, tertiary-style in INJs, even inferior-style in (criminal) ESPs, etc
Stray, MBTI functions are for MBTI. Not Socionics. MBTI Se is mostly associated to Alpha SF values.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Oh fuck off. I said take it with a grain of salt. Comprende. I might as well say shove the saltshaker up your ass now.
lulz. Some people need reminding.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
I think you must be confused here. In fact, the kind of person you are trying to describe sounds like they haveBut within the context of the OP, how does it follow from being willful, dominant, volitional, and direct that a person with those qualities will lose self-control to such an extent that they end up jailed and/or ruining their own reputations irrevocably? Ime, the opposite is more likely.
An Se ego getting entangled in a lot of ass-showing, self-ruining BS scrapes, well, just haven't seen it.
EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1
As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962
I think that for things like aggression it's better to use enneagram rather than socionics. I tend to see E8s as being the most aggressive people I meet, but it's also due to how impulsive they can be at times. I'm not afraid of them, but they do have a vibe that constantly wants to oppose any outside force towards them to the point of alienating people of good will. I can see SLE E8s as being scary aggressive depending on upbringing and crazy genes.
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